Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[TimmyTurnero]

Need thoughts rq plz

Well, Goku lifted the z sword.
Gohan is currently equal to Goku, so the scaling is circular. Even if Goku is 50x Gohan it makes no sense.
Gohan=Teen Gohan.
Goku SSJ2>SPC>=<SSJ2 Gohan>Perfect Cell>Base Goku=SSJ Gohan>50x Teen Gohan.
For anyone who don’t understand, SSJ2 would be over a 50x boost off of ssj. Either outlier or SSJ2 upgrade.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

If that’s not simple enough, Base Goku> Z sword>= SSJ Gohan.
Making this version of Goku equal to SSJ Gohan. Gohan ss2 surpases Goku’s SSJ via Goku’s statement of his and Vegeta’s SSJ2 only then surpassing Gohan. Meaning their SSJ is inferior. So SSJ2 would have to be at least 50x superior than SSJ for this to work.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

So SSJ2 would have to be at least 50x superior than SSJ for this to work.

Well.
SSJ Gohan < Perfect Cell < Grade 3 Cell (10x) < Revived Cell < 50% SSJ2 Gohan.

We know at the very least that Super Saiyan 2 is 20x more powerful than Super Saiyan, and that Gohan instantly overpowered Cell after unleashing what remained of his power after having his arm broken and having his Ki cut into less than a half.

That, and, while yes, Goku did lift up the Z-Sword, so did base Gohan pre-training, and Goku struggled to do so. The scaling comes from being able to effortlessly wield the sword.

Goku SSJ2>SPC>=<SSJ2 Gohan>Perfect Cell>Base Goku=SSJ Gohan>50x Teen Gohan.
For anyone who don’t understand, SSJ2 would be over a 50x boost off of ssj. Either outlier or SSJ2 upgrade.

I don't know why it'd be an outlier. Yes, pre-training Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 surpasses his post-training Super Saiyan, because Dabura surpasses that. Naturally, Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 surpass that. Goku and Vegeta have been training non-stop in the eight years that Gohan neglected.

SPC>=<SSJ2 Gohan

whazzat?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Well.
SSJ Gohan < Perfect Cell < Grade 3 Cell (10x) < Revived Cell < 50% SSJ2 Gohan.

Agreed.

We know at the very least that Super Saiyan 2 is 20x more powerful than Super Saiyan, and that Gohan instantly overpowered Cell after unleashing what remained of his power after having his arm broken and having his Ki cut into less than a half.

Agreed

That, and, while yes, Goku did lift up the Z-Sword, so did base Gohan pre-training, and Goku struggled to do so. The scaling comes from being able to effortlessly wield the sword.

But according to the scans. It’s a 50x difference. Ssj struggled to carry it around, but so did base. A 50x difference would make it almost impossible to carry.

I don't know why it'd be an outlier. Yes, pre-training Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 surpasses his post-training Super Saiyan, because Dabura surpasses that. Naturally, Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 surpass that. Goku and Vegeta have been training non-stop in the eight years that Gohan neglected.

No I mean, it’d be an outlier due to Gohan and Goku supposedly being portrayed equal on this site (iirc). At most ssj2 is 50x.

whazzat?

Typo.

 

[AguilaR202]

Eh?
They performed very similarly.

Dabura was toying with his foe in both instances; in the former case, Dabura admitted to Babidi that he could easily handle Gohan after seeing his strength.

Trunks mentioned that the battle was "extremely difficult", and that, after being briefly beaten out of his Super Saiyan form, he only "somehow" managed to defeat Dabura via "special instructions" from Supreme Kai and Kibito. Personally, I'm inclined to take the manga's interpretation over the anime's, considering Trunks used Super Saiyan 2 later in the arc, Toriyama illustrated part of "Future Trunks's Past", and Kakarot's Warrior of Hope DLC covers and expands upon its events, which may or may not hold any significance.

Yeah that’s the point, Gohan without z sword training performed not that much different despite being 50x weaker.

Eh?
They performed very similarly.

Dabura was toying with his foe in both instances; in the former case, Dabura admitted to Babidi that he could easily handle Gohan after seeing his strength.

Trunks mentioned that the battle was "extremely difficult", and that, after being briefly beaten out of his Super Saiyan form, he only "somehow" managed to defeat Dabura via "special instructions" from Supreme Kai and Kibito. Personally, I'm inclined to take the manga's interpretation over the anime's, considering Trunks used Super Saiyan 2 later in the arc, Toriyama illustrated part of "Future Trunks's Past", and Kakarot's Warrior of Hope DLC covers and expands upon its events, which may or may not hold any significance.

They did not, Gohan wasn’t half as bruised and damaged as Trunks was, even if we take Dabra to have been holding back we also can no longer take Gokus statement of him being= Cells level as góspel any longer, as any asessment he could’ve made would only pertain to Dabraas supressed state, not the full potential he displayed vs Future Trunks.

 

[Huesito88]

Agreed.

Agreed

But according to the scans. It’s a 50x difference. Ssj struggled to carry it around, but so did base. A 50x difference would make it almost impossible to carry.

No I mean, it’d be an outlier due to Gohan and Goku supposedly being portrayed equal on this site (iirc). At most ssj2 is 50x.

Typo.

Wait Ssj multiples haven't been accepted as a multiplicative lifting strength increase (or at least the direct 50 times) no?

 

[AguilaR202]

Also scaling seems to be off

50% Goku >Buff Cell ( either 500x or 10x idc) >10x Super Trunks>SS1 trunks>Semi Cell

Gokus MSS1 at 50% shocked everyone making his power readily superior to everything shown up to that point, so Cell Jrs /Supressed Cell / Piccolo etc should be twice as strong from that.

edit: though it seems Supressed Cell being = Super Trunks may not be accepted if you take his buff form to be a 500x he could be 500x his own baseline perfect power which should obviously exceed his semi perfect state making him at most 50x higher than Super Trunks.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

we also can no longer take Gokus statement of him being= Cells level as góspel any longer, as any asessment he could’ve made would only pertain to Dabraas supressed state, not the full potential he displayed vs Future Trunks.

The Z-Fighters have a knack for sensing hidden power, and Goku was making a rough estimate based on a single showing, which falls in line with their ability to detect suppressed strength, like with Krillin.

 

[AguilaR202]

The Z-Fighters have a knack for sensing hidden power, and Goku was making a rough estimate based on a single showing, which falls in line with their ability to detect suppressed strength, like with Krillin.

That’s not a really good example considering how every time cells power up later ( in the case of Krillin assessing cells power) everyone gets shocked meaning that they don’t have a good enough grasp of how much one is actually holding back and what their maximum power should be.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Question, when Gohan casually overpowered Cell's Kamehameha when he was trying to destroy the earth, was Cell using his full power there? I honestly forgot if he did or not.

 

[BlastX]

Yes, he explicitly powered up to full power at the start of the fight with SS2 Gohan and by the point he was firing the Earth-Destroying Kamehameha he was desperate.

So yeah, pretty much his full power and then some.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Thanks, wanted to make sure for what I wanted to bring up soon (unrelated to whatever the current talk is).

 

[BlackeJan]

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Oh man I wonder what VSBW is up to-sees 5D DBS CRT- OH GREAT HEAVENS!!!

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Alright, I gave this topic some thought and I wanted to talk about it for a bit and hear what you all have to say about it.

To cut to the chase, I think that Full Power (green form) Bojacks max power should scale above Perfect Cells max power (just perfect Cell, not SPC or even Grade 3).

The idea is pretty straightforward:

PC's max power Kamehameha was overpowered by SSJ2 Gohan's casual no charge Kamehameha (Gohan literally just says the chant and then quickly fires the blast with seemingly no charge up) and messes him greatly.

On the other hand, Full Power Bojacks max power blast clashes with SSJ2 Gohan's casual charged up Kamehameha (Gohan does the classic pose and we see the energy charge up) and they both explode on impact, which likely implies a relatively similar energy output cause if one blast was significantly stronger than the other, it would've bull dozed right through like against Cell.

So it would go FP Bojack Max power blast ~ SSJ2 Gohan's casual charged up Kamehameha > SSJ2 Gohan's casual no charge Kamehameha > PC full power Kamehameha. Note that I'm not trying to scale Bojack to SSJ2 Gohan (since he dealt with him rather easily), just that I'm using Gohan as the mediator to judge Cell and Bojacks performance.

Now for what people might have against this:

1. Gohan killed Bojack so much easier than he did Cell, how could he be above him?
Gohan during his fight with Cell was purposely drawing out the fight so as to make Cell suffer, and it was only when Cell came back with a zenkai that Gohan decided to actually try and kill him (and by then the gap between them was shortened and Gohan was heavily damaged). He could've instantly kill Cell at anytime if he wanted to, but chose not too.

With Bojack on the other hand, Gohan had no such bloodlust and just simply wanted to take him down (which we see with him casually killing him in like a couple minutes). And Cell has Regen unlike Bojack, which benefits his survival compared to Bojack.

2. Gohan's Kamehameha was bigger against Cell than it was against Bojack, so shouldn't it be stronger?

While bigger beams do tend to be stronger, that's not always the case. KKx4 Goku's beam was bigger than the Kamehameha used against Bojack, but obviously it's not stronger. While the possibility does exist, the context surrounding makes me think otherwise: Gohan decided to charge up the attack against Bojack unlike against Cell which implies more effort, and Gohan is trying to kill Bojack while he's just trying to make Cell suffer.

To reiterate, I'm just arguing that FP Bojacks max power should be above Perfect Cells max power, not Grade 3 Cell or Super Perfect Cell/Post Zenkai Perfect Cell, just normal Perfect Cell. And I'm not scaling to Gohan, just using him as a middle ground.

Now if the Daizenshuu's or the movie claim that Perfect Cell (explicitly normal Perfect, not SPC or a vague "Cell is stronger statement") > Bojack, then forget what I posted. But if not, then please let me know what you all think.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

But according to the scans. It’s a 50x difference. Ssj struggled to carry it around, but so did base. A 50x difference would make it almost impossible to carry.

I concede on this argument.
That being said, though, the Supreme Kai was fully convinced Gohan had "limitless power".
Is that grounds for his post-training base scaling to his pre-training Super Saiyan or nah?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I think it should work but I still stand with my ssj2 scaling being affected by this.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Taking the "limitless power" comment into consideration:

Majin Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta & Goku > SSJ2 Gohan (Teen/Pre-Training) > 11.40091 MegaFoe >> Revived Cell > Powerhouse Cell > 5.700455 MegaFoe > Perfect Cell ~ Dabura ~ Future Dabura > SSJ Future Trunks (Post-Training) ~ SSJ Gohan (Post-Training) > 11.40091 KiloFoe > Gohan (Post-Training) > SSJ Gohan (Teen/Pre-Training) > 22.8 Foe

 

[BlastX]

Alright, I gave this topic some thought and I wanted to talk about it for a bit and hear what you all have to say about it.

To cut to the chase, I think that Full Power (green form) Bojacks max power should scale above Perfect Cells max power (just perfect Cell, not SPC or even Grade 3).

The idea is pretty straightforward:

PC's max power Kamehameha was overpowered by SSJ2 Gohan's casual no charge Kamehameha (Gohan literally just says the chant and then quickly fires the blast with seemingly no charge up) and messes him greatly.

On the other hand, Full Power Bojacks max power blast clashes with SSJ2 Gohan's casual charged up Kamehameha (Gohan does the classic pose and we see the energy charge up) and they both explode on impact, which likely implies a relatively similar energy output cause if one blast was significantly stronger than the other, it would've bull dozed right through like against Cell.

So it would go FP Bojack Max power blast ~ SSJ2 Gohan's casual charged up Kamehameha > SSJ2 Gohan's casual no charge Kamehameha > PC full power Kamehameha. Note that I'm not trying to scale Bojack to SSJ2 Gohan (since he dealt with him rather easily), just that I'm using Gohan as the mediator to judge Cell and Bojacks performance.

Now for what people might have against this:

1. Gohan killed Bojack so much than he did Cell, how could he be above him?
Gohan during his fight with Cell was purposely drawing out the fight so as to make Cell suffer, and it was only when Cell came back with a zenkai that Gohan decided to actually try and kill him (and by then the gap between them was shortened and Gohan was heavily damaged). He could've instantly kill Cell at anytime if he wanted to, but chose not too.

With Bojack on the other hand, Gohan had no such bloodlust and just simply wanted to take him down (which we see with him casually killing him in like a couple minutes). And Cell has Regen unlike Bojack, which benefits his survival compared to Bojack.

2. Gohan's Kamehameha was bigger against Cell than it was against Bojack, so shouldn't it be stronger?

While bigger beams do tend to be stronger, that's not always the case. KKx4 Goku's beam was bigger than the Kamehameha used against Bojack, but obviously it's not stronger. While the possibility does exist, the context surrounding makes me think otherwise: Gohan decided to charge up the attack against Bojack unlike against Cell which implies more effort, and Gohan is trying to kill Bojack while he's just trying to make Cell suffer.

To reiterate, I'm just arguing that FP Bojacks max power should be above Perfect Cells max power, not Grade 3 Cell or Super Perfect Cell/Post Zenkai Perfect Cell, just normal Perfect Cell. And I'm not scaling to Gohan, just using him as a middle ground.

Now if the Daizenshuu's or the movie claim that Perfect Cell (explicitly Perfect, not SPC or a Cell statement) > Bojack, then forget what I posted. But if not, then please let me know what you all think.

Should also add Bojack had a hole through his chest when he fired that beam, so he was weakened at the time.

Though I'm not sure if the KHH Gohan used against Bojack=The one against Cell.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Quick question: Is Vegito considered more powerful than the hypothetical Gokhan here?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Quick question: Is Vegito considered more powerful than the hypothetical Gokhan here?

Huh

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I remember there being discussion about the topic awhile back, but I don't know if it ever came to a conclusion.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I don't think it should matter if it never ever shows up? Kinda strange tbh

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Oh, it's from an El Manga Legendario statement.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

So how is that 5D DBS thing going?

 

[Omegabronic]

So how is that 5D DBS thing going?

Why not go there see by yourself?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Why not go there see by yourself?

Can't. My meatloaf is almost done.

 

[Huesito88]

Can't. My meatloaf is almost done.

Are you cooking something up? Both literally and figuratively?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Are you cooking something up? Both literally and figuratively?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Updated.
I also realized that I was doing math correctly wrong; I was dividing my products by 100 instead of 1,000.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Should also add Bojack had a hole through his chest when he fired that beam, so he was weakened at the time.

Though I'm not sure if the KHH Gohan used against Bojack=The one against Cell.

I agree that it could be weaker, but the context kinda just makes me slightly doubt it would be (since Gohan is trying to kill Bojack and he charged it up unlike with Cell).

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I know Cell is referring to its Zenkai Boost, but I've been on a trip lately. Is "I've powered up—like Son Gohan" enough to compare its Zenkai to the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, or is this against multipliers rules?

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I know Cell is referring to its Zenkai Boost, but I've been on a trip lately. Is "I've powered up—like Son Gohan" enough to compare its Zenkai to the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, or is this against multipliers rules?

Man, it's kept just vague enough and it's frustrating lol. Like he could be referring to Gohan just generally powering up or the specific increase in power.

Did Gohan withheld his full power after going SSJ2, or was he just letting it run freely? Cause if the later, then maybe you can make an argument.

Honestly, a possibly might just be the best end for this.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

'S all coming together now.

Unfortunately, because the concept is not founded in attempting to confirm infinite 5-D universal macrocosms or expanding Heroes cosmology into Super cosmology, discussions are likely going to be difficult on account of nobody caring.

 

[Quantu]

Potential 4-A Vegito? Null is cooking

 

[Nullflowerblush]

• Every 50x is an application of the accepted Super Saiyan multiplier.
• Every 500x is an application of the accepted Third Grade Super Saiyan multiplier.
• Every 20x and 1,000x is an application of an estimated Super Saiyan 2 multiplier, the reasoning being that, because Super Saiyan 2 allowed Gohan to turn around a stomp and dominate Powerhouse Cell and the stronger Revived Cell with less than half of his strength remaining, the difference between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan needed to be at least twice as large as the difference between Super Saiyan and Third Grade Super Saiyan, which is 10x, meaning that Super Saiyan 2 is, bare minimum, 1,000x.
• Pre-RoSaT Gotenks is currently accepted as stronger than Majin Vegeta based on Krillin and Piccolo implying that Gotenks had the potential to exchange blows with Majin Buu, knowing Vegeta failed, with the Daizenshuu 7 clarifying that Gotenks "seized the initiative battle" against Majin Buu multiple times, only to fail in the end, implying that his initial confrontation with Innocent Buu resulted in an even match that quickly escalated into a defeat due to unknown factors. Post-RoSaT Gotenks is accepted as stronger than his Pre-RoSaT SSJ self based on Piccolo expressing the belief that Gotenks could defeat Super Buu, knowing that Super Buu eclipsed his Pre-RoSaT SSJ.
• Fusions are currently accepted as automatically being more powerful than the strongest forms of their halves, and as Elder Kai clarified that, while turning Super Saiyan was unneeded, Ultimate Gohan could transform (which Kakarot confirms), a Hypothetical Gokhan is automatically more powerful than a Hypothetical SSJ2 Ultimate Gohan.
• Vegito is superior to a Hypothetical Gokhan based on an excerpt from the El Manga Legendario, confirming that, because of their rivalry, Goku and Vegeta produced a stronger Fusion than Goku and Gohan would have, which is a concept briefly alluded to by the Elder Kai in the original series (link to Herm's translation).
• Revived Cell receiving a 20x increase over its Powerhouse form is based on its claims of having "powered up--like Son Gohan", which implies that the difference between its power before and after regenerating is comparable to the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, which, as established earlier, is 20x.

Sound logic, or...?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Wouldn't the last point create circular scaling?

Cell > SSJ Gohan, let's supose they're equal

Cell powers up as Gohan did. Since SSJ2 is 20x SSJ, he increases his power by 20x.

Gohan could defeat Cell with less than half of his power, so his full power should be 2x Cell. Since we supposed Cell pre-explosion was equal to SSJ Gohan, SSJ2 Gohan should be 40x SSJ Gohan then.

But that means Cell powered up 40x, and that'd mean Gohan powered up 80x...

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Phooey.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Unless the perceived difference is 10x based on Gohan stomping Powerhouse Cell, which takes a lot more gymnastics to prove.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Wouldn't the last point create circular scaling?

Cell > SSJ Gohan, let's supose they're equal

Cell powers up as Gohan did. Since SSJ2 is 20x SSJ, he increases his power by 20x.

Gohan could defeat Cell with less than half of his power, so his full power should be 2x Cell. Since we supposed Cell pre-explosion was equal to SSJ Gohan, SSJ2 Gohan should be 40x SSJ Gohan then.

But that means Cell powered up 40x, and that'd mean Gohan powered up 80x...

Yeah I was gonna bring this up. Cell couldn't have gotten the same level of boost as SSJ2 Gohan, otherwise SSJ2 Gohan killing Cell with less than half of his power wouldn't make sense