You could literally use this logic for any character Goku having conversations with Chi-Chi, Bulma, etc. that doesn’t mean Goku isn’t MFTL+ because he doesn’t get tired of talking to characters and it should be thousands of years passing in his perception
right and what I am saying is that if there are statements that give SSJR a SSJB amp then by all means Base Saiyans by the ToP should be around their SSJB forms of the U6vU7 which would make a mere Kaioken x10 on that Immeasurable by this scaling
None of this actually proves Base Saiyans in the ToP would be Immeasurable. You're saying they'd scale off Base Goku Black, but Base Goku Black would still just be Massively FTL+
Huh? When Goku’s talking to the regular characters he’s specially talking to them at normal speed. What’re you referring to?
Technically they wouldn’t be able to speak at faster than sound speeds but I guess you could argue in fiction they would be able to but either way if
I see the point you’re trying to make but in this case it isn’t the same, one is an inconsistency problem that would come from being so fast and the other is a direct contradiction to a level of speed portrayed.
Because this is never portrayed, that’s why it’s ridiculous. None of these fights have ever lasted a few minutes in real time, but I’m supposed to believe Goku is sitting down for entire minutes (not stated) which would equate to THOUSANDS of years for all the other fighters or even infinite amount of time for other top tiers. Even if you assume they’re just light speed, a single minute would be almost 50 years, now with our accepted speed that’d reach trillions of years. See how ridiculous that is? So for all of these fights not to end the very moment Goku drops his speed makes this even more unreasonable.
But they almost always are. When Goku is supposedly “resting” fights are still taking place, when he’s in the middle of talking to people he’s caught off guard by someone trying to attack him. Ofc this person isn’t running at Goku below supersonic speeds, yet Goku can still interact and react to them.
I bet my entire money that Shiba vs Yhwach will get banned here in the future
Shibai Otsutsuki, wanked Boruto character who is said to have ascended to a higher dimension and cast aside his physical form
Strongest character in Naruto. An Otsutsuki (A race of aliens that are the God tiers in Naruto) that became so powerful that he ascended to a higher dimension and has access to every Otsutsuki ability. Aside from upscaling from every feat in Naruto he is basically featless. But wankers treat the "higher dimension" as Uni+
Oh...? Another vague so called higher dimensional supreme being that's nigh-featless yet due to "lore" and UES/upscaling is essentially a composite of the entire verse?
Nah we can’t, the Spirit Bomb did as much damage to Freeza as Goku’s kamehameha did, it’s not that much more powerful.
Scaling superhero is a headache because the only frame of reference are statements comparing cell to broly under the assumption he’d be complete but actually isn’t, I say even scaling him above MUI from the ToP is faulty because Freeza demonstrates how hard of a boost just having proper control of one’s power can be, being originally below U6 tourney SSB and jumping all the way to start of ToP SSB tier, which is anywhere between 10s of thousands of times to millions of times stronger JUST by mental training alone.
The thing is, though...
It is not, there is even a statement that supports this, as Piccolo is in the same league as Goku and Vegeta, both of them climb absurdly well above their top and close versions, Jiren.
No, it’s stated that if he had mind control Broly would be unable to defeat him and having mind control is recurrently established to be a significant amp over just raw power + no control, even during the movie Jiren is touted as having such incredible power because he could focus it better than everyone else in the ToP, something a creature like cell max would be unable to, Freeza has an effective amp close to 10s of thousands his previous peak just through mental training and focus whilst unable to physically train in hell, kale is noted to have grown stronger than her berserk state because she managed to control the rage coming with it.
Being in the same league is ambiguous as it gets, we can’t even tell for sure if UI and MUI are forms Goku can readily use outside the manga which has disjoint continuity and scaling compared to the anime, or that if Goku and Vegeta are actually in the same league when the latter presumably only has SSBE, meaning that even though they’re in the same league in Toriyamas eyes their powers are very likely not even close to one another at their peak.
His power was flat-out stated in the movie to be complete. Cell Max is not Frieza or Kale, and the Jiren example is irrelevant as it just has to do with him releasing his power at the right time. Plus, Beast Gohan vs. Cell Max was stated to be the strongest battle in history.
Still funny to me out of the Z era multi-form villain trio, Cell got done so dirty compared to his contemporaries in DBS:
They should have brought back Cell. It narratively made sense. Frieza was looking for a partner at the end of DBS Broly because he was tired of 1 vs 2. Cell would have been the perfect match. Cell and Frieza always showed good chemistry in non canon materials like Fighter Z, GT or Anime Filler.
The super roast fest with a fighting minigame on the side had some of the best writing in any Dragon Ball material, tho Frizea and Cell double teaming on poor Yamcha with Nappa and (unintentionally) Goku joining in on the roast with Krillin silently watching is one of my personal favourite cutscenes.
The cooking is burning the kitchen. Dr. Hedo says Cell Max’s power is complete
You and I both know this doesn’t mean anything when even Krillin is staggering Cell Max
Dr. Hedo said Cell Max was only missing a mind control program / a program to control Cell Max and not Cell Max having control over himself/gaining intelligence.
That’s my point, everything in this fight is contradictory and circular, and his lack of power control may allow for many of these instances to be explained.
My guy it's just plot-induced stupidity
That’s my point, everything in this fight is contradictory and circular, and his lack of power control may allow for many of these instances to be explained.
With Frieza’s potential and Saiyans generic structure Cell would easily become the strongest thing in the Universe. I mean even Togama could become Buu level just from being beat up for a couple months and he’s never noted to be something special. Saiyans which are explicitly said to be the strongest fighting force in the Universe+Friezas potential is just crazy.
Or, or just maybe, Toriyama+ several other showings of lack of power control makes or breaks people in the series? I’m not against what you’re arguing, I personally believe he’s at his peak, but I can see why others may disagree with it
