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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

godofice said:
That’s literally just Causality Manipulation Goku already has resistance to that
Click to expand...
on himself, not on goku, aka he will not resist since the hax is not being made on him to be resisted

Omegas03 said:
Serious question shouldn't Bojack scale to Broly's High 3-A key? Movie villains are generally stronger than the previous one and the only exception to this rule was Janemba.

plus M9 Z fighters should intituively be > the ones from M8 as they are post cell games.

(Bojack being below Restricted SSJ Broly doesn't feel okay at all).
Click to expand...
well depends, is broly movie canon to bojack movie?

godofice said:
Pretty sure goku does have acausality type 1 but either way goku resists causality manip if your attacks affect past present and future that’s causality simple as that

Facts
Click to expand...
acausality type 1 is pretty useless against it tbh
 
omegabronic said:
on himself, not on goku, aka he will not resist since the hax is not being made on him to be resisted


well depends, is broly movie canon to bojack movie?


acausality type 1 is pretty useless against it tbh
Click to expand...
Okay so you’re arguing Sonic can use causality manipulation on himself and thus make his attacks affect during all points in time that is still causality manipulation if his attacks have causality manipulation it doesn’t matter it’s still causality manipulation Goku resists this it doesn’t matter if it’s sonics attacks having causality manip it’s still causality manip plain and simple I don’t see how you can extrapolate this

Perhaps (for the acausality message not the movie message)
 
godofice said:
Okay so you’re arguing Sonic can use causality manipulation on himself and thus make his attacks affect during all points in time that is still causality manipulation
Click to expand...
yeah it is still causality manipulation, it just isn't being used on goku

godofice said:
if his attacks have causality manipulation it doesn’t matter it’s still causality manipulation Goku resists this it doesn’t matter if it’s sonics attacks having causality manip it’s still causality manip plain and simple I don’t see how you can extrapolate this
Click to expand...
i don't see how you can't understand something this simple, goku can resist having causality manipulation being used on himself, unless he has strong acausality he won't "resist" a causality manipulation that is not even being used on himself, if it is not being used on him then the resistance is quite useless in this scenario, goku resists time manipulation too, will he "resist" a char using time manip on themselves via making them faster?

godofice said:
Perhaps (for the acausality message not the movie message)
Click to expand...
huh, what is the proof for it?
 
omegabronic said:
yeah it is still causality manipulation, it just isn't being used on goku


i don't see how you can't understand something this simple, goku can resist having causality manipulation being used on himself, unless he has strong acausality he won't "resist" a causality manipulation that is not even being used on himself, if it is not being used on him then the resistance is quite useless in this scenario, goku resists time manipulation too, will he "resist" a char using time manip on themselves via making them faster?


huh, what is the proof for it?
Click to expand...
It’d probably help to explain it in another way, I interpret what you’re saying as Sonic attacking Goku in the past, future, etc, as do he. Are you saying this or implying something else?
 
TimmyTurnero said:
It’d probably help to explain it in another way, I interpret what you’re saying as Sonic attacking Goku in the past, future, etc, as do he. Are you saying this or implying something else?
Click to expand...
i think i understood your question, but just to clarify, are you asking if the sonic stuff i explained is just him attacking in all time periods?
 
omegabronic said:
yeah it is still causality manipulation, it just isn't being used on goku


i don't see how you can't understand something this simple, goku can resist having causality manipulation being used on himself, unless he has strong acausality he won't "resist" a causality manipulation that is not even being used on himself, if it is not being used on him then the resistance is quite useless in this scenario, goku resists time manipulation too, will he "resist" a char using time manip on themselves via making them faster?


huh, what is the proof for it?
Click to expand...
It’s because it still doesn’t matter his attacks are now affecting causality all of time goku resists this so him landing punches that reach all of time doesn’t matter I assume you mean time acceleration like mih in your example but Goku has resistande to tike skip and time stop

i said perhaps In agreement with u
 
godofice said:
It’s because it still doesn’t matter his attacks are now affecting causality
Click to expand...
his attacks are not affecting causality, what are you talking about

godofice said:
all of time goku resists this
Click to expand...
no goku resists having causality manip being done to him, this one isn't being done on him

godofice said:
so him landing punches that reach all of time doesn’t matter
Click to expand...
yes it does, depending on how they are done goku may resist, but sonic's he does not

godofice said:
I assume you mean time acceleration like mih in your example but Goku has resistande to tike skip and time stop
Click to expand...
yeah he does, but would that make pucchi unable to do his time acceleration on himself?

godofice said:
i said perhaps In agreement with u
Click to expand...
oh okay my bad
 
omegabronic said:
his attacks are not affecting causality, what are you talking about


no goku resists having causality manip being done to him, this one isn't being done on him


yes it does, depending on how they are done goku may resist, but sonic's he does not


yeah he does, but would that make pucchi unable to do his time acceleration on himself?


oh okay my bad
Click to expand...
I’m confused I just looked at sonics profile doesn’t sonic have causality manip for hurting Solaris through all points in time I don’t see what you’re saying on his profile
 
godofice said:
I’m confused I just looked at sonics profile doesn’t sonic have causality manip for hurting Solaris through all points in time I don’t see what you’re saying on his profile
Click to expand...
yeah he does have that for that reason, he makes his own attacks go through all of time, he is not using causality manip on solaris, but on himself
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
No he isn't. He's using it on Goku too, to punch him across time. And even if he is, the end result doesn't change.

Methodology =! Effects.
Click to expand...
The end result doesn't change, but the method does, sonic is not affecting goku's cause and effect, he is affecting his own cause and effect to go through all of time, thus goku being able to resist his own cause and effect being screwed over doesn't protect him here since his cause and effect are not being affected
 
Random Comment
But this HERE might be an interesting idea
It works better given both characters shares two Tiers that are the same lol
May just try a matchup at some point in the future just for Funs Sake
 
omegabronic said:
The end result doesn't change, but the method does, sonic is not affecting goku's cause and effect, he is affecting his own cause and effect to go through all of time, thus goku being able to resist his own cause and effect being screwed over doesn't protect him here since his cause and effect are not being affected
Click to expand...
Gonna disagree here. Under the assumption this is causality manipulation, depending on Goku's resistance, he wouldn't be affected from his past or future versions being attacked.

However, I don't really think Sonic's ability should even be considered causality manipulation anyways. It should just be an extension of time manip since his attacks hit you through every instance of time simultaneously. Might need to make a crt for that tbh.
 
Question, is zeno more powerful than super shenron? Because i feel like super shenron can be argued 2-A with wish granting, and then zeno would scale via actual power, and zalama of course. So obviously theres the scan saying no wish is beyond super shenrons power, we know shenron is capable of restoring multiple universe from the erasure of zeno, so if theres no limit to his power presumably, then i think a "possibly" rating for hypothetically being capable of creating or destroying an infinite amount of spacetime continuums if somebody wished for it. Which would scale to zeno "possibly 2-A, above shenron who can grant any wish on a 4d scale, should hypothetically have the power to create/destroy an infinite amount of spacetime continuums" this is the same treatment rimuru gets with his "likely" rating : likely Multiverse level+ with Void God Azathoth(Ciel has likely turned the stomach into Imaginary Space which is infinite in size, making Imaginary Space hypothetically large enough to contain an infinite amount of space-time continuums. I think zeno or at the very least super shenron should get the same treatment with the context and feats we have been given, or rimuru should lose that rating entirely, or be given a "possibly". . .
 
TiltedFN said:
Question, is zeno more powerful than super shenron?
Click to expand...
We've discussed that here in the general and the reception was basically "Yes, Zeno should be stronger than Super Shenron" and from there it was more about how powerful Super Shenron was. We already know the Grand Priest and Zenos both back the idea that he can do 'anything' and they're well aware of the parallel timelines existing, it's also extremely doubtful the the GP and Zeno are somehow ignorant of how Many Worlds theory applies to the timelines.

So is Many Worlds theory accepted for DB? Last I checked yes. It's why the cosmology is considered an extremely high level of 2-B with it not being 2-A due to a technicality. So if Zeno and the GP are well aware of the other timelines and should be aware of Many Worlds theory applying to the Dragon World and they both claim Super Shenron can do 'anything' and Zeno is the strongest being in existence (including Super Shenron) then logically Zeno and Super Shenron should both be 2-B.

Why isn't this extremely basic and clearcut logic not accepted? Frankly it's just because the detractors don't like the idea of 2-B DB. Wasn't the 'excellent' excuse against it something like 'Other timeline Zenos exist and they haven't wiped out the entire cosmology so they can't be 2-B!' which...obviously makes zero sense. Given we were never given any impression that any Zeno would ever want to destroy the entire cosmology and that same logic applies to damn near any other 2-B verse with 2-B characters.
 
Anyone else tired of the transformations? like I understand with stronger enemies mean stronger transformation but like doesn’t it get annoying that they HAVE to rely on them? like why not they be so strong that they can beat a boss in base form or find a way to make it even stronger
 
TiltedFN said:
Question, is zeno more powerful than super shenron? Because i feel like super shenron can be argued 2-A with wish granting, and then zeno would scale via actual power, and zalama of course. So obviously theres the scan saying no wish is beyond super shenrons power, we know shenron is capable of restoring multiple universe from the erasure of zeno, so if theres no limit to his power presumably, then i think a "possibly" rating for hypothetically being capable of creating or destroying an infinite amount of spacetime continuums if somebody wished for it. Which would scale to zeno "possibly 2-A, above shenron who can grant any wish on a 4d scale, should hypothetically have the power to create/destroy an infinite amount of spacetime continuums" this is the same treatment rimuru gets with his "likely" rating : likely Multiverse level+ with Void God Azathoth(Ciel has likely turned the stomach into Imaginary Space which is infinite in size, making Imaginary Space hypothetically large enough to contain an infinite amount of space-time continuums. I think zeno or at the very least super shenron should get the same treatment with the context and feats we have been given, or rimuru should lose that rating entirely, or be given a "possibly". . .
Click to expand...

I agree with it
 
CryoTheMayo said:
We've discussed that here in the general and the reception was basically "Yes, Zeno should be stronger than Super Shenron" and from there it was more about how powerful Super Shenron was. We already know the Grand Priest and Zenos both back the idea that he can do 'anything' and they're well aware of the parallel timelines existing, it's also extremely doubtful the the GP and Zeno are somehow ignorant of how Many Worlds theory applies to the timelines.

So is Many Worlds theory accepted for DB? Last I checked yes. It's why the cosmology is considered an extremely high level of 2-B with it not being 2-A due to a technicality. So if Zeno and the GP are well aware of the other timelines and should be aware of Many Worlds theory applying to the Dragon World and they both claim Super Shenron can do 'anything' and Zeno is the strongest being in existence (including Super Shenron) then logically Zeno and Super Shenron should both be 2-B.

Why isn't this extremely basic and clearcut logic not accepted? Frankly it's just because the detractors don't like the idea of 2-B DB. Wasn't the 'excellent' excuse against it something like 'Other timeline Zenos exist and they haven't wiped out the entire cosmology so they can't be 2-B!' which...obviously makes zero sense. Given we were never given any impression that any Zeno would ever want to destroy the entire cosmology and that same logic applies to damn near any other 2-B verse with 2-B characters.
Click to expand...
Am I the only one who thinks we should try to update the characters from DB to 2-B?
 
TiltedFN said:
Question, is zeno more powerful than super shenron? Because i feel like super shenron can be argued 2-A with wish granting, and then zeno would scale via actual power, and zalama of course. So obviously theres the scan saying no wish is beyond super shenrons power, we know shenron is capable of restoring multiple universe from the erasure of zeno, so if theres no limit to his power presumably, then i think a "possibly" rating for hypothetically being capable of creating or destroying an infinite amount of spacetime continuums if somebody wished for it. Which would scale to zeno "possibly 2-A, above shenron who can grant any wish on a 4d scale, should hypothetically have the power to create/destroy an infinite amount of spacetime continuums" this is the same treatment rimuru gets with his "likely" rating : likely Multiverse level+ with Void God Azathoth(Ciel has likely turned the stomach into Imaginary Space which is infinite in size, making Imaginary Space hypothetically large enough to contain an infinite amount of space-time continuums. I think zeno or at the very least super shenron should get the same treatment with the context and feats we have been given, or rimuru should lose that rating entirely, or be given a "possibly". . .
Click to expand...

You can use all my scans to make this happen, I would do it one way or another at some point, but your ideas are better









https://imgur.com/a/mVKZLDH
 
TiltedFN said:
Question, is zeno more powerful than super shenron? Because i feel like super shenron can be argued 2-A with wish granting, and then zeno would scale via actual power, and zalama of course. So obviously theres the scan saying no wish is beyond super shenrons power, we know shenron is capable of restoring multiple universe from the erasure of zeno, so if theres no limit to his power presumably, then i think a "possibly" rating for hypothetically being capable of creating or destroying an infinite amount of spacetime continuums if somebody wished for it. Which would scale to zeno "possibly 2-A, above shenron who can grant any wish on a 4d scale, should hypothetically have the power to create/destroy an infinite amount of spacetime continuums" this is the same treatment rimuru gets with his "likely" rating : likely Multiverse level+ with Void God Azathoth(Ciel has likely turned the stomach into Imaginary Space which is infinite in size, making Imaginary Space hypothetically large enough to contain an infinite amount of space-time continuums. I think zeno or at the very least super shenron should get the same treatment with the context and feats we have been given, or rimuru should lose that rating entirely, or be given a "possibly". . .
Click to expand...

CryoTheMayo said:
We've discussed that here in the general and the reception was basically "Yes, Zeno should be stronger than Super Shenron" and from there it was more about how powerful Super Shenron was. We already know the Grand Priest and Zenos both back the idea that he can do 'anything' and they're well aware of the parallel timelines existing, it's also extremely doubtful the the GP and Zeno are somehow ignorant of how Many Worlds theory applies to the timelines.

So is Many Worlds theory accepted for DB? Last I checked yes. It's why the cosmology is considered an extremely high level of 2-B with it not being 2-A due to a technicality. So if Zeno and the GP are well aware of the other timelines and should be aware of Many Worlds theory applying to the Dragon World and they both claim Super Shenron can do 'anything' and Zeno is the strongest being in existence (including Super Shenron) then logically Zeno and Super Shenron should both be 2-B.

Why isn't this extremely basic and clearcut logic not accepted? Frankly it's just because the detractors don't like the idea of 2-B DB. Wasn't the 'excellent' excuse against it something like 'Other timeline Zenos exist and they haven't wiped out the entire cosmology so they can't be 2-B!' which...obviously makes zero sense. Given we were never given any impression that any Zeno would ever want to destroy the entire cosmology and that same logic applies to damn near any other 2-B verse with 2-B characters.
Click to expand...
Ss3micah said:
Random Comment
But this HERE might be an interesting idea
It works better given both characters shares two Tiers that are the same lol
May just try a matchup at some point in the future just for Funs Sake
Click to expand...
Micah what do you think?
 
BlackeJan said:
Anyone else tired of the transformations? like I understand with stronger enemies mean stronger transformation but like doesn’t it get annoying that they HAVE to rely on them? like why not they be so strong that they can beat a boss in base form or find a way to make it even stronger
Click to expand...
I don't mind non-saiyans getting power-ups/forms like Piccolo or Freeza but I do agree that the forms end up lame when they're just a generic power increase. I really wish TTT would be more creative with what their forms actually mean and would give them new abilities to compliment, like with Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego.

As for the base form argument, that's kind of where Whis is trying to lead Goku and True UI is the closest thing to it thus far. With any luck EoZ Goku is actually Goku with mastery over UI and no longer needs to transform but we both know they're going to force more forms for merchandising. Goku could master UI into base form, like with SSG, and he'll just stack on Super Saiyan to unlock 'Super Saiyan Instinct' or something, like SSGSS.
 
Quantu said:
Yes, someone above was suggesting 2-A for canon Zeno and I'm wondering why.
Click to expand...
I don't know how we would get 2-A, but 2-B I see it happening for Zen'ō, Daishinkan, and Super Shenron

Check this out, bro

The concept of parallel worlds originates from the study of quantum mechanics. It says that at this moment, there are infinite universes that exist, and each one of them contains one 'you'. So if there were, say, 10 universes, then you'd simultaneously exist in all of them.
 
If you guys want to upgrade suoer shenron to 2-B because "he can make any wish" then you would have to not scale him to zeno, since killing zeno is also a possible wish
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
In Universe 6, at the suggestion of Champa, the God of Destruction of Universe 6, a martial arts fight will be held between Goku and other warriors representing Universe 7 and the warriors representing Champa from Universe 6. Any wish can be fulfilled with the Super Dragon Balls... Saiyans and Frieza-like entities in the 6th universe will appear.

DB special databook
Click to expand...
Yeah I think 2-A should be done

Also manga Zamasu has a statement that he was gonna destroy every parallel world which means a timeline


omegabronic said:
If you guys want to upgrade suoer shenron to 2-B because "he can make any wish" then you would have to not scale him to zeno, since killing zeno is also a possible wish
Click to expand...
Yeah I could see Shenron getting Likely 2-B and then Zeno getting Possibly 2-B but I could see Zeno not getting one entirely tbh
 
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