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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Broly was trying to control his anger, so there's that. I suppose it's still impressive that Base Goku can match a calm Broly.
No, it's MORE impressive. There are multiple scans that state Broly's power actually matched Gogeta Blue and he lost because of his rage. It's a direct lack of control over his emotions that prevents his full potential from being used. And that's also the entire point of his training, to control his power instead of having it run wild.

In other words, Broly fighting more calmly is actually meant to make him stronger, not weaker.
 
Isn’t that more like, he’s actually using technique and finesse if he fights calmly? I don’t really see it making him especially weaker then stronger then he’d otherwise be. It also seems more likely that being angry makes him stronger, because well, look at dragon balls history.
 
No, it's MORE impressive. There are multiple scans that state Broly's power actually matched Gogeta Blue and he lost because of his rage. It's a direct lack of control over his emotions that prevents his full potential from being used. And that's also the entire point of his training, to control his power instead of having it run wild.

In other words, Broly fighting more calmly is actually meant to make him stronger, not weaker.
That kind of a statement is iffy considering Gogeta overpowered Broly in direct clashes on multiple occasions, not to mention how anger works for power in Dragon Ball. Admittedly, they are still close enough in power that Gogeta had to dodge attacks.
 
There is no proof Broly loses the power he gained through adapting so he should still be above his peak base self from dbs Broly movie.

Wrathful Broly = Blue Goku

/10 (Wrathful is Great Ape)

So base Broly is 1/10 Blue Goku
 
Isn’t that more like, he’s actually using technique and finesse if he fights calmly? I don’t really see it making him especially weaker then stronger then he’d otherwise be. It also seems more likely that being angry makes him stronger, because well, look at dragon balls history.
No. Toriyama has explained how Ki works: "In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki."

The entire point of Broly's training as shown in SH and the recent chapter is to gain control of his emotions so he can actually wield his Ki properly. Without the correct mindset, you can't control your Ki properly, lowering your power. We even have Jiren appear in SH with him explained as having incredible control over his power, enabling him to fight at a far higher level, that served as a contrast to Broly especially with his reaction to Vegeta's explanation.

You bring up how anger is used to gain power and that is true but here's the thing, all of those characters had training to use that power. Gohan's entire training arc was about learning to tap into his inner potential with his rage and to wield it. When Goku goes Super Saiyan he is barely managing to keep control of his rage and later retains his sense of humanity against Freeza and so on. Broly doesn't have that sort of restraint.
That kind of a statement is iffy considering Gogeta overpowered Broly in direct clashes on multiple occasions, not to mention how anger works for power in Dragon Ball. Admittedly, they are still close enough in power that Gogeta had to dodge attacks.
That statement came from Saikyo Jump during the Granolah Saga and was written from Broly's PoV to discuss his future in the manga. It even directly references his training in this chapter over a year beforehand which indicates it is faithful to the manga's interpretation of him. Gogeta dodging Broly's blows is a mixture of Gogeta's superior skill and Broly losing control of his own power.

Anger can increase power, sure but it results in a loss of control. Hence the need to practice that power. This is even an entire point with Cell Max who Toriyama states would have been unstoppable, but instead he's just a rampaging uncontrollable monster. You can interpret Broly being able to defeat Cell Max whichever way you prefer (Broly has gained more control via his training or Broly just has more raw power than Cell Max so he wins in a berserker clash).

It is very clear that your control over your emotions heavily influences your power. Pure rage like Broly or Cell Max is actively detrimental and prevents you from using your full potential. Broly's raw power matched Gogeta Blue's raw power but he lacked the control to wield that potential, hence being beaten down brutally. It's the same deal with Gohan Beast vs Cell Max (although Gohan is clearly stronger the dynamic is similar).

-

In short, in Dragon Ball, your power is incomplete if you lack control over it. Rage can increase your power but it tends to decrease your control which makes the power less effective. That's why characters that use rage-based transformations, like the Saiyans, need to meditate or learn to be relaxed while transformed.
 
There is no proof Broly loses the power he gained through adapting so he should still be above his peak base self from dbs Broly movie.

Wrathful Broly = Blue Goku

/10 (Wrathful is Great Ape)

So base Broly is 1/10 Blue Goku
Basically
 
There is no proof Broly loses the power he gained through adapting so he should still be above his peak base self from dbs Broly movie.

Wrathful Broly = Blue Goku

/10 (Wrathful is Great Ape)

So base Broly is 1/10 Blue Goku
I feel like base broly should be stronger than blue goku after fighting Gogeta due to multipliers but thats just me
 
I would assume Broly has retained the power increases and we do see that he actively trained with Goku and Whis for a few weeks by the start of SH. Ironically Broly mentioning that he has been progressing slowly with the control training could mean his power doesn't increase as much via actual training, unlike Freeza who grows most when given time to train.

Either way Base Broly was already bullying SSG Vegeta before entering his actual Wrathful state and we see Base Goku is able to contend with Broly when he starts getting angry this chapter. It seems reasonable to argue Goku made an SSG or SSB-level leap in power by SH either way.
 
Reality is that we don’t know how much SS1 without pupils and SS green really amps someone, it could be that the multiplier is much much lower than SSB and his base just skyrocketed to make up for the difference netting a much stronger Goku by scaling.
 
Reality is that we don’t know how much SS1 without pupils and SS green really amps someone, it could be that the multiplier is much much lower than SSB and his base just skyrocketed to make up for the difference netting a much stronger Goku by scaling.
With the Wrath State and Super Saiyan multipliers combined, 500 times
 
Yeah, Wrathful Super Saiyan is just Great Ape and Super Saiyan combined and the wiki accepts both multipliers so...500x. The real issue is figuring out how 'Full Power' Super Saiyan should be treated here. It has been referred to as Broly's 'unique' transformation officially so I feel like it'd be an error to treat it as just Wrathful SS.
 
Yeah, Wrathful Super Saiyan is just Great Ape and Super Saiyan combined and the wiki accepts both multipliers so...500x. The real issue is figuring out how 'Full Power' Super Saiyan should be treated here. It has been referred to as Broly's 'unique' transformation officially so I feel like it'd be an error to treat it as just Wrathful SS.
With the current accepted multipliers and scaling, its vastly above 50 times his previous form via scaling to Gogeta Blue
 
Broly has 4 forms in the movie

Base :

Ikari :10x

SSJ without pupils : either 50x or 500x

SS full power /LSSJ/ SS Green : ??? But certainly above the pay grade of SS1 to SSG in terms of multiplier


Wrathful Broly peaked around SSB Goku level, he was losing that match going by how confindently Goku was taking him but still not nearly as one sided as to say he isn’t nearly on par with SSB Goku at the time.

SSJ without pupils Broly being 50x above his wrathful state ( being a 500x multiplier ) makes sense in the anime continuity considering neither Goku nor Vegeta bothered to use KK20 or Evolution and just called it quits before things got worse.

SSJ Broly then grew to be a match for SSJ Gogeta after adapting.

LSSJ Broly made Gogeta jump straight from SSJ to SSB to finish him implying that it’s a greater amp than SS1-SSG but not on par with Blue as an amp.
 
Its 500x base because its multiplied from Ikari which is 10x base

Makes sense to me, just feel like the evidence is stronger in the anime since scaling would put him 50x above SSB Goku and Vegeta who at most can only further amplify themselves to 20x above SSB with their respective techniques and form making it narratively consistent for them not to bother using them.
 
Can kid Goku beat this version of GER ?
images
Yes, via incap.
 
I want to ask, does something like overcoming one's own natural weakness include adaptations like for example Vegeta and Nappa overcoming their tails as a weakness?
 
Just posting this here (scaling chain as of DBS:SH with the accepted multipliers)

6 universes < 2 GoDs fighting < 3 GoDs fighting <<< Extremely Suppressed Jiren ~ UIO1 Goku < SS2 Kefla < UIO2 Goku < Kefla's final attack < Post-UIO2 SSB Goku <<< (20 times) Post-UIO2 SSBKKx20 Goku ~ SSBE Vegeta < GoD Toppo <<< Amped SSBE Vegeta < Suppressed Jiren < (Around 2.5 times) Super Saiyan Gogeta and Broly < DBS:SH Super Saiyan Gohan <<< Potential Unleashed Piccolo < Full Power Gammas < DBS:SH Potential Unleashed Gohan <<< (Vastly above 50 times) Beerus < Belmod <<< Full Power Jiren ~ UIO3 Goku <<< UI Goku < Limits Broken Jiren < Enraged UI Goku <<< Cell Max <<< Saigo Gohan

Supplementary scaling chains:
Wrath State Broly ~ Initital Broly Saga SSB Goku < SSB Goku after AD ~ Casual Gammas ~ DBS:SH Base Gohan and Piccolo

Beerus < Full Power Super Saiyan Broly < Gogeta Blue

Orange Piccolo ~ DBS:SH Super Saiyan Blue < Cell Max
 
Just posting this here (scaling chain as of DBS:SH with the accepted multipliers)

6 universes < 2 GoDs fighting < 3 GoDs fighting <<< Extremely Suppressed Jiren ~ UIO1 Goku < SS2 Kefla < UIO2 Goku < Kefla's final attack < Post-UIO2 SSB Goku <<< (20 times) Post-UIO2 SSBKKx20 Goku ~ SSBE Vegeta < GoD Toppo <<< Amped SSBE Vegeta < Suppressed Jiren < (Around 2.5 times) Super Saiyan Gogeta and Broly < DBS:SH Super Saiyan Gohan <<< Potential Unleashed Piccolo < Full Power Gammas < DBS:SH Potential Unleashed Gohan <<< (Vastly above 50 times) Beerus < Belmod <<< Full Power Jiren ~ UIO3 Goku <<< UI Goku < Limits Broken Jiren < Enraged UI Goku <<< Cell Max <<< Saigo Gohan

Supplementary scaling chains:
Wrath State Broly ~ Initital Broly Saga SSB Goku < SSB Goku after AD ~ Casual Gammas ~ DBS:SH Base Gohan and Piccolo

Beerus < Full Power Super Saiyan Broly < Gogeta Blue

Orange Piccolo ~ DBS:SH Super Saiyan Blue < Cell Max
I just realized the mangas stronger than the anime now because manga starts at 2-C in bog and goku absorbed SSJG’s power into his base and Vegeta is equal to that and there’s been more opportunity for scaling chains

wait nvm 6 universes scaling
 
we gotta revive the ssj2 and ssj3 multiplier crt so SSJ2 and ssj3 can be 2x as a lowball so 50x SSJ 100x SSJ2 200x SSJ3
This would make multipliers more busted since 200x50 for SSJB
 
50% One-Armed SS2 Gohan outbeams SPC, while SS1 Gohan loses to PC. 2x is possible.

SS3 Goku no-sold an attack from SS2 Caulifla (who Goku is equal to in SS2) and SS Berserk Kale (who is likely stronger than SS2 Caulifla) with just his aura. 2x is possible.
 
Super Saiyan being a 50 times multiplier comes from the Daizenshuu. There's no officially stated multiplier for SS2 and SS3
Ik it’s just stated in guides that it’s 2x Ssj and ssj3 is 4x ssj2 but yeah daizenshuu doesn’t say it the only reason we don’t accept ssj2 as 2x is because it seems higher than that so SSJ2 being 2x can be a lowball
 
Just posting this here (scaling chain as of DBS:SH with the accepted multipliers)

6 universes < 2 GoDs fighting < 3 GoDs fighting <<< Extremely Suppressed Jiren ~ UIO1 Goku < SS2 Kefla < UIO2 Goku < Kefla's final attack < Post-UIO2 SSB Goku <<< (20 times) Post-UIO2 SSBKKx20 Goku ~ SSBE Vegeta < GoD Toppo <<< Amped SSBE Vegeta < Suppressed Jiren < (Around 2.5 times) Super Saiyan Gogeta and Broly < DBS:SH Super Saiyan Gohan <<< Potential Unleashed Piccolo < Full Power Gammas < DBS:SH Potential Unleashed Gohan <<< (Vastly above 50 times) Beerus < Belmod <<< Full Power Jiren ~ UIO3 Goku <<< UI Goku < Limits Broken Jiren < Enraged UI Goku <<< Cell Max <<< Saigo Gohan

Supplementary scaling chains:
Wrath State Broly ~ Initital Broly Saga SSB Goku < SSB Goku after AD ~ Casual Gammas ~ DBS:SH Base Gohan and Piccolo

Beerus < Full Power Super Saiyan Broly < Gogeta Blue

Orange Piccolo ~ DBS:SH Super Saiyan Blue < Cell Max
why is Cell Max > UI and Limit Break Jiren?

and I am sure Piccolo and Base Gohan shouldn't scale to Casual Gammas. at most SSJ Gohan but he was getting manhandled too until Mystic. In fact Potential Unleashed Piccolo and Gohan are likely in the Broly Saga SSB ballpark more or less especially when Piccolo thought Goku and Vegeta would be required to beat them

(SSB DBS SH Goku and Vegeta being remotely comparable to ToP MUI is kinda nuts xddddd)
 
If we're going by the manga scaling, Granolah Arc Goku and Vegeta were stated to be the strongest in the universe (discounting the gods) before Granolah makes that wish. Which makes them stronger than SSFP Broly, which required Gogeta Blue to beat. So Granolah Arc SSB Goku could be comparable to Broly Arc SSB Gogeta at this point idk.
 
why is Cell Max > UI and Limit Break Jiren?
Because his fight with Saigo Gohan is stated to be the strongest battle in history, with the latter being stated the strongest warrior, and other promotional material calling him the strongest. And Cell Max was so powerful that Gohan decided to target his weak point with a fully charged Special Beam Cannon (something that is stronger than one's normal maximum ki output), which supports him being the second strongest
and I am sure Piccolo and Base Gohan shouldn't scale to Casual Gammas. at most SSJ Gohan but he was getting manhandled too until Mystic. In fact Potential Unleashed Piccolo and Gohan are likely in the Broly Saga SSB ballpark more or less especially when Piccolo thought Goku and Vegeta would be required to beat them
Base Gohan fought on par with a casual Gamma 1 who is already Broly Saga SSB level while holding back a massive extent of his power as stated by Piccolo, and the Namekian is equal to Gohan for making him reel with a punch. Super Saiyan Gohan fought on par with a Gamma 1 who using more of his power but was still holding back
 
If we're going by the manga scaling, Granolah Arc Goku and Vegeta were stated to be the strongest in the universe (discounting the gods) before Granolah makes that wish. Which makes them stronger than SSFP Broly, which required Gogeta Blue to beat. So Granolah Arc SSB Goku could be comparable to Broly Arc SSB Gogeta at this point idk.
The most we can say with that is that SSBE Vegeta > FPSS Broly by the end of the Moro Saga. As for UI Goku...yeah, he's blatantly superior to Fusion SSB lol.

To explain: It's spelled out that Spirit Fission requires the user to actually hit and cause some harm to their target to work. Piccolo states fusion wouldn't work against Moro because he copied Spirit Fission, which requires actually landing blows on your target and harming them at least a little. Why does that mean UI Goku > SSB Gogeta/Vegito? Because when Moro tries to hit UI Goku he shatters his freaking arm and then needs to copy Ultra Instinct just to match Goku.

In other words, Moro-73 can tag and at least slightly harm SSB Gogeta/Vegito according to Piccolo (and Goku who seemed to agree) whereas Moro-73 can't hit UI Goku until Goku lets him and when he does, Moro ends up breaking his own arm. That's when Gogeta/Vegito would KNOW about Spirit Fission and to avoid Moro's attacks.

You can argue that UI Goku just scales above SSB Gogeta in speed (via UI agility and instincts) and durability (due to UI hardening) but that still means UI Goku is superior to SSB Gogeta in multiple ways and I'd argue Moro-73 and the SSB fusions have to be relative since they apparently can't dodge all of Moro-73's attacks to avoid Fission. So overall the scaling chain here is:

UI Goku (Moro) = UI Moro >> SSB Gogeta (Moro) > Moro-73 >> SSBE Vegeta (Moro) > FPSS Broly
 
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