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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

This whole logic of only using blatant, face-value evidence and not applying any other form of critical thinking skills is literally no different from when someone posts an image of a character making an obvious hyperbole statement (Buuhan saying he's omnipotent for example) and saying that if you can't show proof to debunk it then you're admitting it's correct.
 
RinneItachi said:
Exactly. It is a simple fact, not an opinion, that Toppo under NO CIRCUMSTANCES could ever even DREAM of beating Jiren in a fair match. Not even with God of Destruction aura. Anyone who has watched the ToP arc can understand that if they possess even the fundamentals of understanding story telling and narrative tropes. Even an 8 year old can grasp this. But according to the wiki, "no proof so wrong xd".
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I also don't know how this is accepted, since Jiren soles Bellmoth who has hakai
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I also don't know how this is accepted, since Jiren soles Bellmoth who has hakai
Click to expand...
Because of the absurd logic the wiki applies.

As much as people talk about DB downplay on the wiki, this exists everywhere. It is a plague on the wiki that has affected probably dozens of profiles over the years. Because for some reason the wiki refuses to accept that not everything needs a statement or feat to be proven true.
 
RinneItachi said:
Obviously I'm being rhetorical, it's ******* silly,
Click to expand...
Damn straight

It's also a criticism I always have carried on the idea of scaling

Using the example D&D: A CR 24 monster compared to a CR 25 in-universe is barely a 50% statistically speaking on average (as in, in-game). But because of the sites standards, the former is scaled to 6-C, the latter jumps to Low 6-B

That's around a x232 jump, when they aren't supposed to be that far off (lvl 24 players should be able to fight up to CR 27 monsters and win, but according to our values, that's simply impossible).

Note: Not using specific values, just giving an example
 
About that GoD Toppo and Jiren thing, I'm pretty sure characters can get abilities for significantly less compelling reasons

Ignoring the fact that anyone stronger than early ToP Base Goku should have EE resistance, Jiren has so much reason to have it through narrative implications alone
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
About that GoD Toppo and Jiren thing, I'm pretty sure characters can get abilities for significantly less compelling reasons

Ignoring the fact that anyone stronger than early ToP Base Goku should have EE resistance, Jiren has so much reason to have it through narrative implications alone
Click to expand...
Nah bro, clearly that one finger flick pebble sized Hakai that Toppo used on Sphere of Destruction could one-shot Limit Breaker Jiren, Jiren's never actually been seen resisting it before so it must be true! 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
 
Basically, what we have is a very (very) simplified system. At least for lower tiers. From tier 2 and on is an entire shit show, lol.

At the very least, it does carry 'some' merit. We "play it safe" and choose the downplayed option because it's considered better than systematically exaggerate the tiers.

Though obvious cases like the Jiren-Toppo situation suffer from it.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Basically, what we have is a very (very) simplified system. At least for lower tiers. From tier 2 and on is an entire shit show, lol.

At the very least, it does carry 'some' merit. We "play it safe" and choose the downplayed option because it's considered better than systematically exaggerate the tiers.

Though obvious cases like the Jiren-Toppo situation suffer from it.
Click to expand...
Well that should change because its very easy for characters to get updated as long as said changes absolutely justified even if minimally
 
RinneItachi said:
Because of the absurd logic the wiki applies.

As much as people talk about DB downplay on the wiki, this exists everywhere. It is a plague on the wiki that has affected probably dozens of profiles over the years. Because for some reason the wiki refuses to accept that not everything needs a statement or feat to be proven true.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that Ki can contain it, as in the case of Frieza in the golden form that was balanced with the Blue form, practically Jiren has a passive barrier, not even Toppo can cause some damage, the difference in power between Toppo and Jiren is practically infinite, not even Vegeta with a new form managed to scratch Jiren, but how does Toppo get that he was defeated by Vegeta?
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Basically, what we have is a very (very) simplified system. At least for lower tiers. From tier 2 and on is an entire shit show, lol.

At the very least, it does carry 'some' merit. We "play it safe" and choose the downplayed option because it's considered better than systematically exaggerate the tiers.

Though obvious cases like the Jiren-Toppo situation suffer from it.
Click to expand...
Which has never been very good or logical. The wiki can do a lot better. Besides which, these topics should never be generalized by rules, it's all case-by-case.
 
RinneItachi said:
Should I explain the irony in how the wiki trusts fan-made calculations incomparably more than narrative implications that are so obvious the entire fanbase of a series understands something through it without needing to be told or shown it to know it's true?
Click to expand...
I'm trying to be hopeful, stop speaking in based


But yeah, the wiki is funni sometimes
 
RinneItachi said:
Exactly. It is a simple fact, not an opinion, that Toppo under NO CIRCUMSTANCES could ever even DREAM of beating Jiren in a fair match. Not even with God of Destruction aura. Anyone who has watched the ToP arc can understand that if they possess even the fundamentals of understanding story telling and narrative tropes. Even an 8 year old can grasp this. But according to the wiki, "no proof so wrong xd".
Click to expand...
It is the basic consensus of the db fandom, that jiren crushes the toppo under any circumstances. Only here on the wiki is this different.
 
On this note, I still completely fail to comprehend why "possibly" and "likely" ratings are so scarcely used.

Like, we couldn't dare to entertain the possibility that Jiren could at least PROBABLY resist Hakai??? Instead of at least acknowledging the possibility, the wiki would rather just say he outright can't, which is a lot worse.
 
Well, nevertheless, standards do change over time. Maybe in the future we will be able to acknowledge that Jiren should, indeed, be able to resist hakai.

Worse things had happened and it took quite a while to remedy (DBH constantly being ****'d on immeasurable speed by bs standards). The important part, it was remedied.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Well, nevertheless, standards do change over time. Maybe in the future we will be able to acknowledge that Jiren should, indeed, be able to resist hakai.

Worse things had happened and it took quite a while to remedy (DBH constantly being ****'d on immeasurable speed by bs standards). The important part, it was remedied.
Click to expand...
2-C BoG is now possible because of the shared macrocosm being accepted on the ongoing thread

Reminder that years ago everyone said 2-C BoG is impossible

So yeah, standards change over time
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Well, nevertheless, standards do change over time. Maybe in the future we will be able to acknowledge that Jiren should, indeed, be able to resist hakai.

Worse things had happened and it took quite a while to remedy (DBH constantly being ****'d on immeasurable speed by bs standards). The important part, it was remedied.
Click to expand...
Yeah it's not impossible, good to be optimistic, just gotta be careful not to raise your hopes too high.

On that note, I did make a CRT centered around a similar topic to this a long time ago. Might try to find it.
 
Btw everyone, don't let this distract you from the fact that Vegeta doesn't scale to Goku and Broly fighting in magma like it's water, meaning the wiki considers it a unique ability only those two have, specifically in Goku's blue form, nonetheless.
 
RinneItachi said:
Yeah it's not impossible, good to be optimistic, just gotta be careful not to raise your hopes too high.

On that note, I did make a CRT centered around a similar topic to this a long time ago. Might try to find it.
Click to expand...
Honestly? I don't consider myself optimistic. Moreso, patient. Many things I had advocate for years back (like, 2017 stuff) got only implemented like, on 2020-21.

I just keep true to what I believe. If I can convince others of change, great! If not, it is what it is.

That's how I've always approached anything regarding debates ayy.
 
"No matter who it is, Zen'ō sama cannot be defeated" - Shin

Resistance to Dabura, Buu, GoDs and Angels hax and everyone else in the whole verse while we're at it

images
 
Quantu said:
"No matter who it is, Zen'ō sama cannot be defeated" - Shin

Resistance to Dabura, Buu, GoDs and Angels hax and everyone else in the whole verse while we're at it

images
Click to expand...
I mean tbf it would be reasonable to give him resistances to every hax from every opponent that Shin would know. Which does include Dabura whose petrifying spite Shin witnessed first hand, it literally killed his best friend/servant right in front of him.

Wait, ZENO DOESN'T RESIST HAKAI??? WHAT THE ****?
 
RinneItachi said:
I mean tbf it would be reasonable to give him resistances to every hax from every opponent that Shin would know. Which does include Dabura whose petrifying spite Shin witnessed first hand, it literally killed his best friend/servant right in front of him.

Wait, ZENO DOESN'T RESIST HAKAI??? WHAT THE ****?
Click to expand...
99% sure he should scale to his own EE because it came from his hand and engulfed his body while taking time to erase the multiverse
 
Beerus who introduced EE as a hax to the series is on the verge of pissing himself just by being next to him, oh my god vs. wiki.,
 
RinneItachi said:
I mean tbf it would be reasonable to give him resistances to every hax from every opponent that Shin would know. Which does include Dabura whose petrifying spite Shin witnessed first hand, it literally killed his best friend/servant right in front of him.

Wait, ZENO DOESN'T RESIST HAKAI??? WHAT THE ****?
Click to expand...
I would also find this good, someone make a CRT on this
 
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