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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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Downscaling from Vegeta
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It's actually at most 20x more.
Can you translate to me exactly what the raws says in that panel?This is misinformation, on the contrary he does indeed reference the 北銀河 "North Galaxies" in the raw.
No, the four galaxy thing does not exist in canon and has never been described in canon.
That is not what I meant, I meant that 北銀河 is more reasonable to be taken as the "North Galaxies" of or synonymous with the North Area, because using phrasing that typically denotes singular galaxy to describe billions of them is nonsensical, and if we go by Super being canon, it's clarified there that 銀河's usage as "galaxy" singular refers to singular, standard galaxies.
The daizenshuu is canon and it states the existence of the four galaxies/areas. It's the terminology used by it but it doesn'g entail literal galaxies.
"北銀河" literally translates to "north galaxy", and yes it's dumb and confusing to use that terminology to describe something that contains millions of galaxies however that is how the daizenshuu describes it so we have to deal with it. It's apparent that the statement is only referring to the sector.
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No, it's not at most 20x because there is no actual limiting given timeframe from static manga panels of the Namekian spaceship going to Jupiter.
It was simply a lowball to point out why the 538,000 km/h value for the fastest DB spaceship is incorrect, to which we also don't know how fast the fastest DB Earth spaceship is either just that it would be faster than any one in the IRL Earth, so the 4,399 years statement means nothing towards Namek's distance from Earth.
What else do you need translated? It's exactly what Viz says besides it being probably being "North Galaxies" instead.
No, the best translator for this franchise has confirmed it can be taken either way.
The context of DB's cosmology and how galaxy is used in DB (with even direct statements of the galaxy Earth exists being the Milky Way specifically) make it clear that 北銀河 makes more sense to be taken as North Galaxies.
According to the Wiki Rules, the Daizenshuu is not used on this Wiki and neither is the.4 galaxy terminology.
Discussion Rules
VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Using that timeframe along with the speed value brings the value flower man presented. Using the anime time frame of the jupiter feat is 58 seconds which is extremely long compared to the manga yet it's almost identical to the value of the 4399 years timeframe method, using a more appropriate time frame consistent with the manga of 3 seconds it can go up to 20x faster.
That's a totally fine low ball value IDK what you are talking about.
When referencing an actual galaxy or the milky way, the sector it belongs to is never ever mentioned. I challenge you to bring me one CANON statement that unequivocally refers to an actual galaxy using the north east west south denomination. The fact is that daizenshu consistently uses the NEWS galaxy terminology to refer to the sector. So the actual context is that king kai is referring to the sector, not one of the many galaxies in the north sector.
That discussion rule is bullshit first of all. But you gotta understand the actual context of that discussion rule. It's talking about disregarding the statements of the universe being four literal galaxies (which is true) but they are using this to try to say that the daizenshuu is contradictory since it's also saying the universe is infinite. Bascially they are misinterpreting the four galaxy thing as literal to try to create a contradiction that doesn't exist. The four sector thing and the daizenshuu are used and accepted by the wiki.
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Vegeta (Toei)
Vegeta is the disgraced prince of the Saiyan race, one of the few survivors of his species after Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta. Left with no choice but to follow his orders, Vegeta travelled across the galaxy and eradicated planets for sale before he was brought to Earth by Raditz's report of...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Cell (Toei)
You see, I'm perfect, my strength is perfect, and with that I shall bring equally perfect destruction through the rest of the universe.Cell Cell is the ultimate creation of Dr. Gero, created from the DNA of the greatest fighters to ever visit Earth and tasked with the simple goal of killing Son...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Which has been explained as inaccurate for various reasons and relies on provably wrong assumptions such as the fastest DB spaceship being headcanon'd off being equal real world spaceships that are blatantly slower with the facts present.
Anime timeframes aren't remotely accurate or in real time in any way. But even using the 58 second timeframe the 538,000 speed is absolutely dwarfed and it would be impossible for a 538,000km/hr speed to cross a distance in 4,399 years it takes a spaceship to go to Jupiter in a minute 34 days to cross, what's your point?
I literally never said it refers to one galaxy, but that it refers to the "North Galaxies" as in every galaxy in that sector.
We could go on all day about what we think is bullshit or not on this wiki or about the rule being wrong. However, it is accepted so we abide by it until further notice or it gets changed, especially since the discussion at hand is for a timeframe for a feat that is planned to actually be added to the profiles, so it's subject to the rules for the profiles.
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Is Buuhan's anime Vice Shout not even referenced on the wiki at all? It's pretty major.Vegeta (Toei)
Vegeta is the disgraced prince of the Saiyan race, one of the few survivors of his species after Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta. Left with no choice but to follow his orders, Vegeta travelled across the galaxy and eradicated planets for sale before he was brought to Earth by Raditz's report of...Cell (Toei)
You see, I'm perfect, my strength is perfect, and with that I shall bring equally perfect destruction through the rest of the universe.Cell Cell is the ultimate creation of Dr. Gero, created from the DNA of the greatest fighters to ever visit Earth and tasked with the simple goal of killing Son...
Toei Buu when? Remember Buuhan has 3-A Environmental Destruction
Honestly with highballing you could make an argument that Toei Vegito and Buuhan get highend 3-B or lowend 3-A me thinks.
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Have you ever heard of a low ball? Can you provide a more accurate speed for DB earths fastest space ship?
You are just saying it's dwarfed but you haven't actually calculated it. I have literally calculated it and the values are nearly identical. Review the calculation on your own.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...eZ/Namek_Dragon_Balls_fly_from_Namek_to_Earth
You don't understand my point. I am saying that "north galaxy" is correct and "north galaxies" is wrong because the "north/south/east/west" denomination is never ever used to refer to an actual galaxy but is used when referring to the universe sector, which is why king kai is referencing the sector and not the galaxy. The daizenshuu which is a canon consistent source corroborates this.
You don't understand again. I'm saying that rule doesn't use the daizenshuu as evidence for the universe's size.
In regards to the cosmology itself, the daizenshuu refers to the four sectors as four galaxies. The rule is trying to say that the daizenshuu contradicts itself (which isn't true) by interpreting the four galaxies thing as literal and thus contradicting the infinite universe statements which has nothing to do with this thread.
Nullflowerblush
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At least Low 2-C, I suppose.
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The point is that limiting the distance between Namek and Earth based off calcs reliant on complete headcanon is illogical. If Namek is in a different galaxy, that takes precedence. The Earth to Jupiter speed also takes precedence.
Your page already has what you need to know.
Minimum distance between Namek and Earth by taking the anime timeframe seriously (lol): 3.94097241x10^16 meters, or 26304187000000 km (referened from your page)
26304187000000 km/538000km = about 48892540 hours which is about 5581 years. Over a thousand years more than Bulma's calculation. So the 538000km/h calculation being used to downplay Namek's distance from Earth can be discarded.
And until the Daizenshuu gets accepted as canon there is no argument to be made for this and for accepted as canon evidence, its nonsensical with Super's established usage of galaxy.
The North, South, East, West galaxies refer to clusters of galaxies distinguished by cardinal direction and area.
Again, if you disagree I don't know what to tell you. I find it more reasonable to adhere to the wiki and profile rules when figuring out a current timeframe than your reasoning for it being wrong which isn't accepted so it's literally pointless to bring it up since this is about an actual calculation planned to be added, as I said.
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It's not head canon. It's a safe low ball instead of creating a baseless assumption. But I favour the jupiter speed feat to get the distance anyway so I am with you on that.
My page uses the parker solar probe which is 692000km/hr which makes the distance take 4337 years which is literally 2 years shy of bulma's calculation lmao. And the jupiter speed method's low end is identical.
The daizenshuu is excepted as canon except when it's used to upgrade the universe's size to infinite. And your interpretation lacks any canonical basis either. Nowhere are the galaxies residing in the universes sectors described using the cardinal directions' denominations.
No that terminology isn't used to refer to actual galaxies ever.
Alright make a calculation of the dragon balls' speed assuming that namek is in a different galaxy and you can use my calculation as reference if you want. Then start a thread and we'll see what happens.
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The Parker Solar Probe ain't a spaceship for people though, why would you possibly use that? And off by 2 years is till inconsistent with one of the smartest characters in the DB world, so it clearly doesn't have a basis to be used and the only baseless assumption here is the speed of of the DB Earth's fastest spaceship.
But whatever if you understand the irl spaceship calc is invalidated by the Jupiter one which makes more sense, there's nothing more to say.
It also rules out using the galaxy descriptions there. No, literally the name "North Galaxies" is the canonical basis. The terminology refers to that named cluster of galaxies.
I was not interested in adding this myself I don't care to, it was a different user who asked about the timeframe/distance and they can use the between galaxies timeframe if they think it's valid from the scans posted.
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Kaio himself stated he looks after a large portion of the universe, his sector isn’t getting any smaller than a galaxy cluster, and of all the possible places namek can be relative to earth it being closer than the distance to the nearest star is ridiculous and is statistically unlikely since Bulma states in DBS that the universe has a center and that the earth lies close to the edge.
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Bruh how did we forget this.
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Given that Earth is at the edge and Namek is in another territory altogether...
I say we bump it up a notch and say... universe-radius away at the bare minimum LMFAO
Do that within 2 minutes and you're looking at 12+ trillion times FTL.
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That sounds appallingly fast for the Namek Saga. At this point wouldn't the hurdle be proving it to not be approaching outlier territory? Though I think I have some ideas for it being justifiable as legitimate.
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Next closest feat is Whis doing the universe in 10 seconds and literally the entire DBS cast scale off to that so uh...
There's also most of Pre-Cell saga characters upscaling massively from just Frieza's Planet Vegeta bust via Kaio-Ken and SSJ.
Then there's all the 4-Bs upscaling from Cell's Solar System statement.
And the DB 3-As scaling to that one instance of Goku vs Beerus.
All of those could have been called outliers if the proper justifications weren't built up over the years.
And again, we could restrict this to not scaling to anyone other than Android Saga/Cell Saga peeps.
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@KLOL506 Of course, but you know how exceptionally scrutinous people are towards any slightest upgrade to DB so I just wanted to make sure 
.
Just in case though, the Namek Saga has other feats like this:
DBZ Chapter 77: Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohan can lock on to and sense the Ginyu Forces' Ki signatures travelling through space towards Namek. It's worth noting that the scene of them sensing the GF is several pages before the shot of them from space, and they were even farther way than in that shot which is already notably far. Obviously, on it's own, this isn't much of speed feat for the three since it was through Ki sense rather than raw reaction/travel.
DBZ chapter 78: But then literally in the next scene, they were so fast the Krillin or Gohan were completely unable to sense their Ki while they flew to them and only their superior Vegeta did. This seems to indicate that their flight is faster than their space pods.
What would you make of this scene?
.Just in case though, the Namek Saga has other feats like this:
DBZ Chapter 77: Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohan can lock on to and sense the Ginyu Forces' Ki signatures travelling through space towards Namek. It's worth noting that the scene of them sensing the GF is several pages before the shot of them from space, and they were even farther way than in that shot which is already notably far. Obviously, on it's own, this isn't much of speed feat for the three since it was through Ki sense rather than raw reaction/travel.
DBZ chapter 78: But then literally in the next scene, they were so fast the Krillin or Gohan were completely unable to sense their Ki while they flew to them and only their superior Vegeta did. This seems to indicate that their flight is faster than their space pods.
What would you make of this scene?
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They are super advanced futuristic civilization with reality bending technology, it should be easy to strap a cargo hold to the machine.
I don't know if you're joking or if the nitpick is real but a 2 year margin of error is negligible since I am the one doing the calculation using a low ball.
"Baseless assumption". It's not. I've picked the fastest space ship humanity has built just like bulma stated, but bulma's earth is more advanced however we can't quantify that so I stuck with the low ball.
This calculation is not invalidated, you literally are acting like you've never heard of a low ball. I am only saying I prefer the jupiter one, but the former is valid.
"Kitaginka" "North galaxy/galaxies" refers to the universe sector not the galaxy cluster. It refers to the area that contains the galaxy cluster(s). This is true because the daizenshuu corroborates such and that terminology is never used to refer to actual galaxies. That is my whole argument.
Alright then we can end the discussion here.
I agree. It's totally valid but I think the ends will be arbitrary but it's more likely than the previous two methods.
I suggest a "same galaxy" end, a "different galaxy" end and a "different galaxy cluster" end.
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@FluffyCreatureZ If it's just a lowball that's fine, all I'm saying is that limiting the distance between Earth and Namek being shown to be higher from other evidence off a lowball calc isn't fair. If you don't agree with doing that then we're good.
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Doubt it should be abitrary, best yield to use given what we have (Earth being a the edge, Namek being in another territory, less than 2 minutes until Namek explodes) is...
Universe radius, and 2 minutes or less.
And pretty much no one scales other than the absolute top tiers of Android Saga/Cell Saga.
Nullflowerblush
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Why would they scale exactly?
How does anybody scale?
How does anybody scale?
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You also have to consider that the Ginyus ships much further from the main cast, so it might be Like someone can watch a plane fly across the sky and it seems slow@KLOL506 Of course, but you know how exceptionally scrutinous people are towards any slightest upgrade to DB so I just wanted to make sure
Just in case though, the Namek Saga has other feats like this:
DBZ Chapter 77: Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohan can lock on to and sense the Ginyu Forces' Ki signatures travelling through space towards Namek. It's worth noting that the scene of them sensing the GF is several pages before the shot of them from space, and they were even farther way than in that shot which is already notably far. Obviously, on it's own, this isn't much of speed feat for the three since it was through Ki sense rather than raw reaction/travel.
DBZ chapter 78: But then literally in the next scene, they were so fast the Krillin or Gohan were completely unable to sense their Ki while they flew to them and only their superior Vegeta did. This seems to indicate that their flight is faster than their space pods.
What would you make of this scene?
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It was via Ki sense though, not eyesight for which that effect happens due to angular perspective or whatever, which isn't applicable to Ki sensing
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Why would they scale exactly?
Basically Freeza perceived the dragon balls moving at MFTL speeds, so characters who move faster than characters on Freezas tier can percieve need to be at least that fast.
Nullflowerblush
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Yeah exactly. As I said before, it doesn't scale to the three because of that, but to the Ginyu Force's flight speed since if their Ki signatures moved faster than being moved in the space pods.
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Isn’t this basically a Ginyu version of the toei Goku disappearing from king Kai’s view in the anime?
I think that one is accepted
I think that one is accepted
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Ok, I've just realized that with the new revisions to the Toei-verse, there are a TON of matches that can be made with the manga characters and anime characters, a bunch of what-if battles that wouldn't have been possible before.
I've already made a match with Toei Saiyan Saga Goku vs Frieza, and I've got a ton of more ideas. I wonder if other people have realized the same thing...
I've already made a match with Toei Saiyan Saga Goku vs Frieza, and I've got a ton of more ideas. I wonder if other people have realized the same thing...
Valiant_Abyss
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Would people like the earlier arcs of super more if blue just didn’t exist?
Valiant_Abyss
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I personally feel like blue just completely undermined ssg which I find to be visually & conceptually a lot cooler than blue especially with the fire aspect as blue… is well just blue ki. Unmastered blue has that watery looking energy but point still stands
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you got to admit Super Broly did the form justice
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