Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Huesito88]

soon, dont worry

You'll bring hell on earth

 

[Omegabronic]

The problem here, in my opinion, is that Hit’s power improves and he can vary his use. For example, while predicting .1 seconds can be “easy,” predicting .2, .3, a whole second, and then several seconds are just demonstrably harder to do. We also know Hit doesn’t “just punch.” He takes several actions within Skipped Time, meaning Goku has to predict each one

in the case of the initial 0.1 time skip, he only did a punch, as for the later times...

and as Time Skip grows, so too does the complexity of the prediction because Hit simply has more actions to take. This is especially tricky when Hit can simply elect not to use the full power of Time Skip and vary how much time he Skips. Sure, his limit can be 5 seconds, but we know he can use as low as .01 anyway despite his 5 second window.

his limit is not 5 seconds, it is 0.5 seconds, aka merely 1/50 of a second, that is the max he shows using, and when he reached that point Goku was unable to predict him in any way, only overpowering him once he reached Kaioken + Blue to break through his Time Skip

That means Goku has to accurately predict not just the standard limit, but if Hit will go under. And as Time Skip increases passively, over. (So for example: Limit is 5 Seconds.

passively? from what i remember in the fight, it got better only after Hit did a "powered up himself" like pose dunno what to call it really to make it get better, don't remember any statement of it getting better by the second or anything

5 Second Skip -> 2 Second Skip -> 1 Second Skip -> 6 Second Skip -> 3 Second Skip -> 5 Second Skip -> 7 Second Skip.

you meant stop, wiki doesn't consider it a skip
also..........he never does a full second time skip, at max he says stuff like 0.5, it is always fractions and not full seconds, also........hit never said to have done this? but it has been a while since i saw the fight admittedly, could you show me this?

(This is very clearly seen when Hit goes from minor increases into a massive time jump that allows him to utterly wreck Goku.)

which Goku is unable to predict in any capacity dunno how he even would if he is supposedly stopped in time

Annnnd this is also ignoring Hit’s movements are purposely hidden via Baki Hand Pocket logic, making him impossible to be read, so this prediction Set is made progressively harder.

Hit in the Anime also changes stances to best utilize his new stats and powers, which means Goku also had to analyze whatever differences there are that bolster Hit and compensate to account for that in his prediction/calculation.

Which Goku fails to do later on in the fight, also, i don't remember an exact statement for the hidden movement part, could you show me?

On top of that, Goku has to literally account for the unaccounted, such as if Hit had secretly been withholding projectiles to use, or any stance changes Mid-Skip, etc. Countless variables.

It’s still definitely Analytical Prediction, but it’s a high level of predictive skill that has to keep getting better in order to compensate for Hit’s passive developmental abilities.

Which Goku was completely unable to do once Hit advanced his Time Skip, the only way he was able to beat it once hit advanced was with Kaioken making him ignore the time stop in the first place should be time travel and immeasurable speed, but oh well

 

[Omegabronic]

its either stupid high analytical prediction or just passive RE or something else entirely

it is.........only looking fractions of seconds into the future tho? like......yeah it is good, but i don't how it is much better than the norm

 

[Ryzen7900X]

its very clearly an immeasurable speed feat for Kaioken X10 Goku but the wiki aint ready for that yet

 

[Omegabronic]

its very clearly an immeasurable speed feat for Kaioken X10 Goku but the wiki aint ready for that yet

if i can count on your support, i will make a thread tommorow

 

[Killerdrone123]

if i can count on your support, i will make a thread tommorow

You have mine go nuts

 

[Ryzen7900X]

if i can count on your support, i will make a thread tommorow

we'll both die but it'll be worth it

 

[Chariot190]

its very clearly an immeasurable speed feat for Kaioken X10 Goku but the wiki aint ready for that yet

cue kkx10 goku having a fight and then theyre like "yo 40 seconds have passed"

 

[Ryzen7900X]

cue kkx10 goku having a fight and then theyre like "yo 40 seconds have passed"

hypertime/5D time

 

[Chariot190]

hypertime/5D time

dog that literally aint what that means

 

[Ryzen7900X]

dog that literally aint what that means

it does tho plus that fight was taking place in the neutral zone anyway so...

 

[Chariot190]

it does tho plus that fight was taking place in the neutral zone anyway so...

I thought you were making a joke dude

No, that isn't what it means, it could be 20D time even, it literally doesn't matter, you're confusing dimensionality with the actual quantifiable passage of time.

The ToP, uses earth minutes, explicitly, time that is both quantifiable and understandable, and yet, even while fighting at an alleged imm speed form, time passes. This should not occur, he should be fighting at such a speed that no time passes, none, zero, nothing. He's demonstrably not even infinite let alone imm. It being 5D time, doesn't magically mean Goku gets slower, or that time passes anyway.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I thought you were making a joke dude

No, that isn't what it means, it could be 20D time even, it literally doesn't matter, you're confusing dimensionality with the actual quantifiable passage of time.

The ToP, uses earth minutes, explicitly, time that is both quantifiable and understandable, and yet, even while fighting at an alleged imm speed form, time passes. This should not occur, he should be fighting at such a speed that no time passes, none, zero, nothing. He's demonstrably not even infinite let alone imm. It being 5D time, doesn't magically mean Goku gets slower, or that passes anyway.

nah 5D time would ensure that there is a "higher temporal" dimension that Goku cant exactly navigate like he can the 4D temporal dimension with his alleged immeasurable speed. This is why verses with 5D (or higher) immeasurable speed > verses with 4D immeasurable speed

 

[Ryzen7900X]

also I'm pretty sure this is why DBH's immeasurable speed is above every 4D verse now

 

[Chariot190]

nah 5D time would ensure that there is a "higher temporal" dimension that Goku cant exactly navigate like he can the 4D temporal dimension with his alleged immeasurable speed. This is why verses with 5D (or higher) immeasurable speed > verses with 4D immeasurable speed

Literally no.
That not only isn't how it works, you realize the fact ANY time at all passes, at all, even 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 second, at all, while fighting, means imm Goku is bullshit and demonstrably false.

5D time doesn't change the fact that literal quantifiable A to B seconds pass. We're talking about speed dude, you're basically saying it being 5D time would make it ok if it took Goku a year to run 10m, a below human feat, but he'd be imm still because it took place in 5D time (never stated btw). That quite simply isn't how it works.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Literally no.
That not only isn't how it works, you realize the fact ANY time at all passes, at all, even 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 second, at all, while fighting, means imm Goku is bullshit and demonstrably false.

5D time doesn't change the fact that literal quantifiable A to B seconds pass. We're talking about speed dude, you're basically saying it being 5D time would make it ok if it took Goku a year to run 10m, a below human feat, but he'd be imm still because it took place in 5D time (never stated btw). That quite simply isn't how it works.

you don't understand how immeasurable speed works. immeasurable speed treats time as just another "spatial" dimension that the traveler can fly through normally. This is how every character with immeasurable speed works. however when you have 5D time, this then adds another "dimension" that you cant access or fly through normally (unless you prove you can) like you can with the "lower" temporal dimension. that's why that temporal dimension can affect you normally with you not being able to traverse through it. again this is literally why verses with higher dimensional immeasurable speeds are far faster than those that are 4D at best.

 

[Damage3245]

I hope no one is arguing that Goku has immeasurable speed.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I hope no one is arguing that Goku has immeasurable speed.

I'm not. i'm just showing why the ToP isnt the "aha!" that he thinks it is

 

[Huesito88]

I hope no one is arguing that Goku has immeasurable speed.

I mean you could say Goku feats against Hit are immeasurable, now whether you think that's a outliner or not is a different story.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

I mean you could say Goku feats against Hit are immeasurable, now whether you think that's a outliner or not is a different story.

looking at the thread's previous conversations about it, it is decidedly an immeasurable speed feat but its just such a huge outlier its not used. Still a good feat though for when someone tries to wank a character against Goku

 

[Chariot190]

you don't understand how immeasurable speed works. immeasurable speed treats time as just another "spatial" dimension that the traveler can fly through normally. This is how every character with immeasurable speed works. however when you have 5D time, this then adds another "dimension" that you cant access or fly through normally (unless you prove you can) like you can with the "lower" temporal dimension. that's why that temporal dimension can affect you normally with you not being able to traverse through it. again this is literally why verses with higher dimensional immeasurable speeds are far faster than those that are 4D at best.

Are you really trying to argue speed standards with me? None of this even tackles the blatant and demonstrable contradiction that is the ToP all while misunderstanding Imm speed yourself.
Everything you just said, is simply a byproduct of said speed, the speed itself is still fast and all that other funny stuff. If it wasn't, it'd just be simple time travel and dimensional range. You're conflating Imm speed being a byproduct of time travel, when really, time travel is just a byproduct of having imm speed. As such, when the apparent Imm Goku consistently shows that time, earth time explicitly because they note that in particular, still moves on, wether it's 5D or 500D, windows of reference are given when said windows shouldn't have happened at the alleged speed.

Notwithstanding Goku very, very, blatantly doesn't treat time as another movement axis anyway.

looking at the thread's previous conversations about it, it is decidedly an immeasurable speed feat but its just such a huge outlier its not used. Still a good feat though for when someone tries to wank a character against Goku

I mean, yeah it is a feat, and yeah that fight is technically Imm in a vacuum. But it's contradicted to hell and back. I hate calling stuff outliers, but this is definitely one such time it would be, it'd be like if Kid Goku blew up a universe, and then got his ass beat by an 8-C, and then DB plays out normally where Goku gets mogged by 8-Bs, 7-Cs, and more and then uni stuff comes back in again at Beerus.

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Are you really trying to argue speed standards with me? None of this even tackles the blatant and demonstrable contradiction that is the ToP all while misunderstanding Imm speed yourself.
Everything you just said, is simply a byproduct of said speed, the speed itself is still fast and all that other funny stuff. If it wasn't, it'd just be simple time travel and dimensional range. You're conflating Imm speed being a byproduct of time travel, when really, time travel is just a byproduct of having imm speed. As such, when the apparent Imm Goku consistently shows that time, earth time explicitly because they note that in particular, still moves on, wether it's 5D or 500D, windows of reference are given when said windows shouldn't have happened at the alleged speed.

Notwithstanding Goku very, very, blatantly doesn't treat time as another movement axis anyway.

I'm not even gonna try to read any of that but i came up with something else that does contradict the 5D/hypertime argument way better than whatever you probably said. Goku countered Hit's timeskip in the neutral zone which shouldn't have ANY temporal dimension other than the timeline's higher temporal dimension itself, which means that Goku moves through that dimension. however the fact that time still affects him in stronger forms suggests that it probably was just an outlier even if I make the hypertime argument

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Technically the DBH lads also had the TOP timer thing

 

[StekFence]

Technically the DBH lads also had the TOP timer thing

It’s dragonballover…

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Technically the DBH lads also had the TOP timer thing

yeah but DBH has much more immeasurable speed feats. at that point the ToP stuff becomes the outlier instead

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

No one in the ToP scales to the DBH feats so no

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not even gonna try to read any of that but i came up with something else that does contradict the 5D/hypertime argument way better than whatever you probably said.

This is the single best way to discredit yourself in all future CRT's.

Goku countered Hit's timeskip in the neutral zone which shouldn't have ANY temporal dimension other than the timeline's higher temporal dimension itself, which means that Goku moves through that dimension. however the fact that time still affects him in stronger forms suggests that it probably was just an outlier even if I make the hypertime argument

And this is just made up conjecture, we need statements, "should be" is not "is". Especially when talking about Imm related and dimensional stuff.

Technically the DBH lads also had the TOP timer thing

Like, before they whipped out their Imm feats, chronologically, yeah?

yeah but DBH has much more immeasurable speed feats. at that point the ToP stuff becomes the outlier instead

kinda hard to make like 30+ episodes the odd one out

 

[Ryzen7900X]

This is the single best way to discredit yourself in all future CRT's.

lol like I care about your opinion of me or my future CRTs. No offense but that i didn't read it because it really wasnt worth my time to get into a debate over immeasurable speed standards with you. if you don't understand them off the bat there's nothing I can do that would change that. just a waste of time and thread space. "Debates" here are more of a test of patience than an honest attempt to reach a true conclusion lol

And this is just made up conjecture, we need statements, "should be" is not "is". Especially when talking about Imm related and dimensional stuff.

unless you think:
1.) the neutral zone has its own temporal dimension parallel to the universe's
2.) the neutral zone follows the temporal dimension of another universe adjacent to it
the only logical inference is that, if time passes here or if someone is able to use temporal abilities it has to stem from the higher temporal dimension that is currently accepted on the wiki.

kinda hard to make like 30+ episodes the odd one out

i mean, sure. so when's your 9-A Goku thread coming out for the 50+ episodes where Goku's best feats are barely above building level? the universal stuff is all an outlier so go ahead lol

 

[RanHover60]

kinda hard to make like 30+ episodes the odd one out

iirc, chronologically the DBH anime starts right after the canonical TOP however during the end of one of the arcs they hold another one but I don’t think it having a time limit is specified

 

[RedReaper616]

in the case of the initial 0.1 time skip, he only did a punch, as for the later times...

No? Hit has to move across the battlefield, pick his positioning, and then attacking pattern—Such as when he tried to attack Goku from behind.

his limit is not 5 seconds, it is 0.5 seconds, aka merely 1/50 of a second, that is the max he shows using, and when he reached that point Goku was unable to predict him in any way, only overpowering him once he reached Kaioken + Blue to break through his Time Skip

I know? I’m using 5 seconds as an example, because it’s much simpler to work in whole numbers than decimals.

passively? from what i remember in the fight, it got better only after Hit did a "powered up himself" like pose dunno what to call it really to make it get better, don't remember any statement of it getting better by the second or anything

Pure Progress, I believe he calls it. At least within the Anime, improving over time. He has a whole monologue about he has no forms and has to improve the old fashioned way. I’ll have to check the episode proper.

you meant stop, wiki doesn't consider it a skip
also..........he never does a full second time skip, at max he says stuff like 0.5, it is always fractions and not full seconds, also........hit never said to have done this? but it has been a while since i saw the fight admittedly, could you show me this?

Pretty sure we saw him activate Time Skip for a brief solitary moment to escape the KK Kamehameha. Now, whether or not he did in combat against Goku is up in the air, but given we know he can vary it, that is a calculation he has to consider.

which Goku is unable to predict in any capacity dunno how he even would if he is supposedly stopped in time

Goku does predict the Stance Change and Hit attack. Obviously not “Mid Time Stop” but before the Time Stop, which is obviously what I’m referring to.

Which Goku fails to do later on in the fight, also, i don't remember an exact statement for the hidden movement part, could you show me?

I don’t recall if it’s said in the Anime, but it’s explicitly noted in the Manga.

Which Goku was completely unable to do once Hit advanced his Time Skip, the only way he was able to beat it once hit advanced was with Kaioken making him ignore the time stop in the first place should be time travel and immeasurable speed, but oh well

He did before the largest jump. Which is what I’m referring to.

 

[Chariot190]

lol like I care about your opinion of me or my future CRTs. No offense but that i didn't read it because it really wasnt worth my time to get into a debate over immeasurable speed standards with you. if you don't understand them off the bat there's nothing I can do that would change that. just a waste of time and thread space.

You probably should given you're just painting yourself in a bad light.

unless you think:
1.) the neutral zone has its own temporal dimension parallel to the universe's

Could be.

2.) the neutral zone follows the temporal dimension of another universe adjacent to it

Could be.

the only logical inference is that, if time passes here or if someone is able to use temporal abilities it has to stem from the higher temporal dimension that is currently accepted on the wiki.

Could be.

Point is, you don't know, they never say, and you're flatout wrong if you think "maybe" is gonna pass for anything at this level.

i mean, sure. so when's your 9-A Goku thread coming out for the 50+ episodes where Goku's best feats are barely above building level? the universal stuff is all an outlier so go ahead lol

Ki control. But yes, strawman some more because that'll sure prove you right.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Like, before they whipped out their Imm feats, chronologically, yeah?

The CC timeline, aka the Dragon Ball Heroes equivalent of Dragon Ball Super, takes place after the ToP and is considered by WoG as being a what if continuation to Super. So I'd say that yes, this was before they whipped out Immeasurable speed scaling.

 

[Chariot190]

The CC timeline, aka the Dragon Ball Heroes equivalent of Dragon Ball Super, takes place after the ToP and is considered by WoG as being a what if continuation to Super. So I'd say that yes, this was before they whipped out Immeasurable speed scaling.

Then yeah it's fine. It's only an issue if blatant dumb contradictions happen after the fact.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Can you please not bring heroes in thank you the events of dbh takes place after the t.o.p for cc goku timeline

 

[Ryzen7900X]

You probably should given you're just painting yourself in a bad light.

i really don't care lol. it's just a power scaling site to me, that's all.

Could be.

Could be.

Could be.

right, now I want you to think hard for a moment. which of those things is currently accepted and we have evidence for right now? hint: it's not the first one, we have 0 evidence for it, and the second one only works if you proves that the universes are below low 2-C, which has never been accepted on this site.

Point is, you don't know, they never say, and you're flatout wrong if you think "maybe" is gonna pass for anything at this level.

i'm not saying its solid evidence heck I'm not even gonna recommend anyone do a CRT with it but to ignore everything that is currently accepted in favor of a conclusion that relies on something there is literally zero evidence for is just dishonesty

Ki control. But yes, strawman some more because that'll sure prove you right.

what Ki control? you didnt mention that before. And how does it change the fact that Goku launching universal punches at someone with universal durability (which manages to hurt them) barely breaks a building at best? and don't play the "don't strawman me" card here, you're the one who brought up the 30+ episodes BS not me lmao

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Then yeah it's fine. It's only an issue if blatant dumb contradictions happen after the fact.

I do wish to point out, out of courtesy since I know these arguments exist, that Heroes is an interesting case where Super is canon to Heroes but Heroes isn't canon. So when there's instances of characters from the ToP fighting with Immeasurable speed characters, kind of like Goku and Vegeta fighting Xeno Goku and Vegeta in World Mission (which is in its own little continuity, so it's not normally apart of regular Heroes), it doesn't apply to canon Dragon Ball and is only part of the Heroes' scaling.

If that sounded like gibberish then I apologize, an easier way of putting it is anything Heroes does with the ToP doesn't apply to the canon ToP.

 

[Omegabronic]

Given the recent discussions, made a thread for it

"Skipping isn't Stopping" Hit Time skip revision

Time Skip factually doesn't stop time firstly, Vados says that it isn't time stop, but time skip(aka time travel), Goku in the fight against Hit says that he is predicting what movements he will do in the future to counter attack, which only makes sense if it isn't time stop, as if it was him...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ryzen7900X]

Given the recent discussions, made a thread for it

"Skipping isn't Stopping" Hit Time skip revision

Time Skip factually doesn't stop time firstly, Vados says that it isn't time stop, but time skip(aka time travel), Goku in the fight against Hit says that he is predicting what movements he will do in the future to counter attack, which only makes sense if it isn't time stop, as if it was him...

vsbattles.com

.....

 

[Killerdrone123]

Well that was fast

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

yikes