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Dagoth jumpscare
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GreetingsDagoth jumpscare
And yet you're here.i really don't care lol. it's just a power scaling site to me, that's all.
And? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Just because the higher cosmology everything is embedded within has its own time, doesn't inherently mean this space, is a direct part of that higher time. You need direct, concrete, proof, it could very well just be its own thing like the RoSaT, **** if we know. Unfortunately, we have to know, conjecture won't cut it.right, now I want you to think hard for a moment. which of those things is currently accepted and we have evidence for right now? hint: it's not the first one, we have 0 evidence for it, and the second one only works if you proves that the universes are below low 2-C, which has never been accepted on this site.
Then don't use it.i'm not saying its solid evidence
No, it's called proof. You're conflating things and drawing conclusions, based solely on assumptions, not actual evidence. That isn't being dishonest, it's saying stop guessing and hinging massive complex conclusions on "well, maybe?".heck I'm not even gonna recommend anyone do a CRT with it but to ignore everything that is currently accepted in favor of a conclusion that relies on something there is literally zero evidence for is just dishonesty
Why would I mention Ki control when talking about Goku being Imm being demonstrably wrong? It's you who decided to strawman and use AP=/=DC as some sort of argument, not me.what Ki control? you didnt mention that before.
Literally Ki control, it just works. Hell the very Uni feat is a display of Ki control and limiting DC, Goku's whole goal was doing that, it's why earth lived yet the further it went, the more destructive it got, by punch 3, Goku was able to negate the collateral almost completely.And how does it change the fact that Goku launching universal punches at someone with universal durability (which manages to hurt them) barely breaks a building at best?
Literal strawman, instead of actually tackling the point, you bring up a completely unrelated topic and twist what was said, a bad one at that given it's totally incomparable, and somehow you think that because Goku doesn't whip out a uni feat every ep, something that has an actual established reason for, and has since like, DB, somehow means the speed argument, something that doesn't have an excuse for, is ok? Nah.and don't play the "don't strawman me" card here, you're the one who brought up the 30+ episodes BS not me lmao
oh yeah, what i meant is that the attack itself is only 1 punch, most of the time, and sometimes he doesn't move much, just saying that it isn't very extra complex up to that timeNo? Hit has to move across the battlefield, pick his positioning, and then attacking pattern—Such as when he tried to attack Goku from behind.
OHHHHHHH i see, my bad thenI know? I’m using 5 seconds as an example, because it’s much simpler to work in whole numbers than decimals.
yeah i see, but it doesn't seem to be passive still, or if it is, not too fast, since Goku blocked and countered him a few times in a roll, maybe that is why he stalled for time with that fake out scream power up, to make his Time Skip better while Goku wasn't attacking himPure Progress, I believe he calls it. At least within the Anime, improving over time. He has a whole monologue about he has no forms and has to improve the old fashioned way. I’ll have to check the episode proper.
to scape the KK Kamehameha, he......did something, we don't know what, we don't know for how long, and all we saw was him extending his arm and the air......cracked or something, it is really vague, and since as you said we don't know if he did against Goku, we can't say that Goku would be able to deal with it as well with his Analytical PredictionPretty sure we saw him activate Time Skip for a brief solitary moment to escape the KK Kamehameha. Now, whether or not he did in combat against Goku is up in the air, but given we know he can vary it, that is a calculation he has to consider.
the link you linked shows a clip of Goku getting his stomach punched, i assume you meant to link to another timeframe?Goku does predict the Stance Change and Hit attack. Obviously not “Mid Time Stop” but before the Time Stop, which is obviously what I’m referring to.
the manga is pretty different from the anime, so i wouldn't use it for the animeI don’t recall if it’s said in the Anime, but it’s explicitly noted in the Manga.
oh he didn't, from the moment Hit improved his Time Skip Goku was unable to counter him anymore and got his beaten badly, only changed that when he went Blue KK10xHe did before the largest jump. Which is what I’m referring to.
Found it. It’s commented on that his Time Skip is lengthening, and he’s simply changing fighting styles/stances to better utilize that new Time Skip and level of power. He also was able to improve his Time Skip to catch SSBKK Goku, who-Y’know, had just moved Mid-Skip.passively? from what i remember in the fight, it got better only after Hit did a "powered up himself" like posedunno what to call it reallyto make it get better, don't remember any statement of it getting better by the second or anything
yeah cuz I like powerscaling. lol what are you on about?And yet you're here.
what do you mean? everything in the cosmology is within the timeline. you're claiming that the neutral zone lies outside of the timeline when its just not true? You're gonna need some extraordinary evidence for that. You're the one making lofty claims here not me lmaoAnd? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Just because the higher cosmology everything is embedded within has its own time, doesn't inherently mean this space, is a direct part of that higher time.
sure, it could be, key word being "could". There's no evidence for it beyond it being called a separate dimensionYou need direct, concrete, proof, it could very well just be its own thing like the RoSaT, **** if we know. Unfortunately, we have to know, conjecture won't cut it.
I'm not lol i literally debunked my own argument using a better argument than whatever you're making right nowThen don't use it.
lol you're the one who drew conclusions through unsubstantiated assumptions just above not me. neutral zone being outside the timeline, it having its own temporal dimensions and all. all those are assumptions with not a modicum of proof to back them up.No, it's called proof. You're conflating things and drawing conclusions, based solely on assumptions, not actual evidence. That isn't being dishonest, it's saying stop guessing and hinging massive complex conclusions on "well, maybe?".
you brought up the 30+ episodes making something an outlier not me.Why would I mention Ki control when talking about Goku being Imm being demonstrably wrong? It's you who decided to strawman and use AP=/=DC as some sort of argument, not me.
irrelevant crap
Well I was going for extraordinary genius for it but guess it was just greater analytical predictionAll this talking about time skip and what not got me wondering...Didn't goku predict Hit in base? Ya know the same dude that literally speed blitzed one spotted ssb vegeta. So...goku now casually predict people that are over 100 000 times faster than him? Or goku got fast enough that his base is above ssb vegeta? And I don't think hot was holding back on base goku. (Could be wrong). What do yall think about that?
possibly/likely is ur best bet tbh. I'd support it.Draws out "any and all" hidden strength + "stimulates the memory of the super-powered Great Ape that lies dormant inside Goku".
I only hope that'll be enough.
That, or, Piccolo Jr. Saga Goku is 236.8 Exatons, which is Moon level+.
- Had they continued fighting, Tien Shinhan would have defeated Master Roshi. >29.6 Exatons (5-C)
- (180) Surpasses the likes of Raditz Saga Yamcha (177), who, himself, surpassed Roshi by the time of the Piccolo Jr. Saga.
- Using the Four Witches Technique, Tien doubles his "attack power" (攻撃力, Kōgekiryoku). >59.2 Exatons
- Old King Piccolo floored Goku and no-sold a Kamehameha without exerting even half strength. >118.4 Exatons
- By drinking the Ultra Divine Water, Goku's hidden power, including that of the Great Ape, is drawn out to its limits. >1.184 Zettatons (Low 5-B)
- After training under Kami and Mr. Popo, Goku's strength nearly doubled. >~2.368 Zettatons
I've never heard of this, actually. I'll have to look into it.
It’s just Accelerated Dev/Reactive Evolution but named. (Meaning it should be inherently passive. It’s him improving “the old fashioned way,” but hyper quickly.) Also, it has to be relatively quick, because Vegeta literally comments on how he refuses to believe Hit has the Saiyan Trait but better due to speed and efficiency, and we see pretty clearly how good Saiyan evolution is. Not saying his is superior, but it must be comparable enough if it causes doubt in Vegeta.yeah i see, but it doesn't seem to be passive still, or if it is, not too fast, since Goku blocked and countered him a few times in a roll, maybe that is why he stalled for time with that fake out scream power up, to make his Time Skip better while Goku wasn't attacking him
He says he extended Time Skip even further. So presumably, he caught Goku in a .5+ Second Time Skip. That said, it does then imply the length of time was not varied. Given he can fully control when it turns on and off, though, it should still mean he can vary it. Especially with the Time Skip Feint.to scape the KK Kamehameha, he......did something, we don't know what, we don't know for how long, and all we saw was him extending his arm and the air......cracked or something, it is really vague, and since as you said we don't know if he did against Goku, we can't say that Goku would be able to deal with it as well with his Analytical Prediction
Yeah, I did, but that clash is after the First Stance Change, so my point is covered regardless.the link you linked shows a clip of Goku getting his stomach punched, i assume you meant to link to another timeframe?
True.the manga is pretty different from the anime, so i wouldn't use it for the anime
He was able to predict and handle the first Stance change, but not the second. Goku even comments on this…”Is he really gonna go up to .2 Seconds? I just need to hold out, keeping taking in his attacks, and then adapt to that.” (Implying he was doing that and succeeding prior.)oh he didn't, from the moment Hit improved his Time Skip Goku was unable to counter him anymore and got his beaten badly, only changed that when he went Blue KK10x
ok then, i guess him just stalling with the scream was the right call then, good to knowFound it. It’s commented on that his Time Skip is lengthening, and he’s simply changing fighting styles/stances to better utilize that new Time Skip and level of power. He also was able to improve his Time Skip to catch SSBKK Goku, who-Y’know, had just moved Mid-Skip.
outlier, Goku would normally be seen as frozen by Hit due to the blitz worth above 8.000.000x above him value that Hit would scale to, predicting is kind of useless when your opponent perceives you as a slow slugAll this talking about time skip and what not got me wondering...Didn't goku predict Hit in base? Ya know the same dude that literally speed blitzed one spotted ssb vegeta. So...goku now casually predict people that are over 100 000 times faster than him? Or goku got fast enough that his base is above ssb vegeta? And I don't think hot was holding back on base goku. (Could be wrong). What do yall think about that?
I tried to do the same for a Naruto character with literally the same technique, it doesn't work as a multiplier, trust me.Given he "concentrates power" (力を込め, chikara o kome), like a super move, and how its sister Multi-Form Technique functions,—splitting Tien's body and strength by fourths,—odds are the technique increases his Attack Potency. That, and he attacks with twice the number of arms simultaneously.
And as such, you have to actually adhere by the rules and standardsyeah cuz I like powerscaling. lol what are you on about?
Damn, 5D normal uni time, 5D rosats, 5d everything...what do you mean? everything in the cosmology is within that timeline. you're claiming that the neutral zone lies outside of the timelines when its just not true? You're gonna need some extraordinary evidence for that. You're the one making lofty claims here not me lmao
That's exactly my point, we don't know, at all, not even remotely, and assuming the funny big number route ain't how it works. You need to prove it, not guess it.sure, it could be, key word being "could". There's no evidence for it beyond it being called a separate dimension
Your argument is conjecture. My argument is "actually prove it".I'm not lol i literally debunked my own argument using a better argument than whatever you're making right now
I didn't draw any conclusions. I'm aware you aren't reading the posts as per your own admission, but you could at least not make stuff up, I am telling you, it could be anything, it could have its own time, it could share one, it could be weird like the Rosat, it could be a flat blatant "theyre literally wrong" like the ToP, or hell maybe you're right. Fact of the matter is, we do not know, and your headcanon ain't gonna cut it. We need proof, not a "well i think".lol you're the one who drew conclusions through unsubstantiated assumptions just above not me. neutral zone being outside the timeline, it having its own temporal dimensions and all. all those are assumptions with not a modicum of proof to back them up.
Yes, because in the case of Imm speed, the 30+ episode ToP where every episode makes it blatantly obvious they ain't Imm, and 5D time ain't changing that, at all, is, in and of itself, a literal fuckton of antifeats and inexcusable contradictions. AP and DC, doesn't have this issue because DBZ establishes ki control as to why it isn't the case, ie, your example and strawman was bad.you brought up the 30+ episodes making something an outlier not me.
meh, maybe? but then again, i don't think it would matter much, so i abstain from arguing furtherIt’s just Accelerated Dev/Reactive Evolution but named. (Meaning it should be inherently passive. It’s him improving “the old fashioned way,” but hyper quickly.) Also, it has to be relatively quick, because Vegeta literally comments on how he refuses to believe Hit has the Saiyan Trait but better due to speed and efficiency, and we see pretty clearly how good Saiyan evolution is. Not saying his is superior, but it must be comparable enough if it causes doubt in Vegeta.
that was after the KK Kamehameha, it was during their final confrontationHe says he extended Time Skip even further.
i mean.....duh? not wanting to sound rude, it is just that it sounds logical, but point is.......i don't think we ever saw him doing that to Goku, usually he just uses the full length for greater efficiency, after he improved he just mocked Goku for thinking that a small increase wouldn't make a difference, then he went there and nearly beat him with itSo presumably, he caught Goku in a .5+ Second Time Skip. That said, it does then imply the length of time was not varied. Given he can fully control when it turns on and off, though, it should still mean he can vary it. Especially with the Time Skip Feint.
what is your point again? kind of lost for a secYeah, I did, but that clash is after the First Stance Change, so my point is covered regardless.
yeah, for 1 attack only, still nothing extreme or anything since it was still only 0.1 seconds amount of movement he had to predict, but still decent i would sayHe was able to predict and handle the first Stance change, but not the second. Goku even comments on this…”Is he really gonna go up to .2 Seconds? I just need to hold out, keeping taking in his attacks, and then adapt to that.” (Implying he was doing that and succeeding prior.)
Yeah probably outlier, because if treat as as a non outlier, everyone that can fight goku on equal footing [or even surpassed him slightly in terms of speed] either is over hundreds of thousands of times faster than goku, or has an insane level of analytical prediction.outlier, Goku would normally be seen as frozen by Hit due to the blitz worth above 8.000.000x above him value that Hit would scale to, predicting is kind of useless when your opponent perceives you as a slow slug
and one of those "rules" is to establish "credibility" in the eyes of other users? Lol yeah rightAnd as such, you have to actually adhere by the rules and standards
and you said I strawmanned. the disingenuousness on your part is honestly frighteningDamn, 5D normal uni time, 5D rosats, 5d everything...
doesn't change the fact that the higher temporal dimension is the only way (that is currently accepted) for time to flow in a place like thatThe only thing that was accepted, is a higher time they're embedded within. Nothing more, nothing less. What the neutral zone even is, was never touched upon.
you're the one making guesses here lmao. My "guess" is based off of a literal simple logical inference of what is already accepted on the site. you saying that it has its own temporal dimension, or lies outside the timeline is a wild guess that's not based on anything accepted or not.That's exactly my point, we don't know, at all, not even remotely, and assuming the funny big number route ain't how it works. You need to prove it, not guess it.
right, remind me who was it that said that the neutral zone has its own temporal dimension or lies outside the timeline? I'm ngl your takes are goofy asf sometimesYour argument is conjecture. My argument is "actually prove it".
if there was evidence for any of that or if any of that was accepted then sure.I didn't draw any conclusions. I'm aware you aren't reading the posts as per your own admission, but you could at least not make stuff up, I am telling you, it could be anything, it could have its own time, it could share one, it could be weird like the Rosat,
Same as above. my conclusion is just making a simple inference via what's already accepted. and the funny thing is my inference would actually be completely true even IF there was no 5D time in the verse but instead the entire timeline was just low 2-C because it literally is the ONLY correct way to interpret this lmao. your conclusions would still not be true because 1.) there'd still be no evidence of it having its own temporal dimension and 2.) it can't "share" a temporal dimension from any adjacent universes because if it did then the universes themselves would no longer be low 2-C but 3-A structures, the timeline would be the low 2-C structure which is where the neutral zone gets its temporal dimension from which is literally the same as my argument the only difference being a low 1-C timeline as opposed to low 2-Cit could be a flat blatant "theyre literally wrong" like the ToP, or hell maybe you're right. Fact of the matter is, we do not know, and your headcanon ain't gonna cut it. We need proof, not a "well i think".
i mean "no kill rule" would make him obligated to hold back i feelYeah probably outlier, because if treat as as a non outlier, everyone that can fight goku on equal footing [or even surpassed him slightly in terms of speed] either is over hundreds of thousands of times faster than goku, or has an insane level of analytical prediction.
Tho we can argue either hit just held back on goku, or goku got a zenkai from analyzing hit.
I mean...not really no. You can still go all out and not hold back. And even if he did, he won't make himself magically thousands of times slower. [And Hit is a guy who goes for the fastest way to end a fight].i mean "no kill rule" would make him obligated to hold back i feel
which character?I tried to do the same for a Naruto character with literally the same technique, it doesn't work as a multiplier, trust me.
I mean, no that's common sense, like take agrees or disagrees, nobody is gonna take you seriously if "yeah lol didnt read".and one of those "rules" is to establish "credibility" in the eyes of other users? Lol yeah right
Yes, because you did. And yes, because if 5D this, why not 5D those? Like the Rosat, what's the difference? We know the Rosat ain't a part of the universe, but time passes, so what time is it?and you said I strawmanned. the disingenuousness on your part is honestly frightening
Just like the Rosat yes? Why is it the only way? You're drawing your conclusion first before actually looking at the proof.doesn't change the fact that the higher temporal dimension is the only way (that is currently accepted) for time to flow in a place like that
Hmm? I'm saying prove it, it's open to interpretation, multiple in fact, your high-end one, isn't any more likely, or unlikely, than any other, whether or not you agree.you're the one making guesses here lmao. My "guess" is based off of a literal simple logical inference of what is already accepted on the site. you saying that it has its own temporal dimension, or lies outside the timeline is a wild guess that's not based on anything accepted or not.
You did actually, I simply said "Could be". Keep track of the conversation please.right, remind me who was it that said that the neutral zone has its own temporal dimension or lies outside the timeline? I'm ngl your takes are goofy asf sometimes
The multiple worlds and dimensions and gaps that exist outside of a standard universe yet have their own unique time-space sets precedence if you really want to go that route.if there was evidence for any of that or if any of that was accepted then sure.
Your conclusion is conjecture, but how about this? Post a statement confirming it, 5D time.Same as above. my conclusion is just making a simple inference via what's already accepted. and the funny thing is my inference would actually be completely true even IF there was no 5D time in the verse but instead the entire timeline was just low 2-C because it literally is the ONLY correct way to interpret this lmao. your conclusions would still not be true because
The fact time flows at all. The default assumption isn't "oh it very clearly has time but isn't part of the universe, it must be 5D time", it's "damn it has time just like the countless other shit". You're extrapolating, we don't do that. We do not know what it's apart of.1.) there'd still be no evidence of it having its own temporal dimension
You're making a self fulfilling argument lad. It doesn't need to be any of that shit, and presuming your take, which, mind you, isn't even implied or stated, must be the only logical conclusion, is asinine.and 2.) it can't "share" a temporal dimension from any adjacent universes because if it did then the universes themselves would no longer be low 2-C but 3-A structures, the timeline would be the low 2-C structure which is where the neutral zone gets its temporal dimension from which is literally the same as my argument the only difference being a low 1-C timeline as opposed to low 2-C
Sakon, who else?which character?
Hear me out, but what if, the ToP time was Immeasurable, like what happens if an Immeasurable speed lad starts counting ya know
that was essentially my argument but the nature of the neutral zone debunks that.Hear me out, but what if, the ToP time was Immeasurable, like what happens if an Immeasurable speed lad starts counting ya know
Well just make the Universe Infinite and then well ummmI really like seeing the fear in people's eyes because of the immeasurable speed of Dragon Ball or something like that
Whis explicitly isn't allowed to use his full power which means he cant fly at his full speeds either. another non-argumentimmeasurable speed in DB is nonsense. When everyone clearly needs time for a finite distance such as Whis.
So SSB Goku>holding back Whis? Also he always uses a technique to fly across the universe with the staff. So it's heavily implied without it he is far slower.Whis explicitly isn't allowed to use his full power which means he cant fly at his full speeds either. another non-argument
i didn't say thatSo SSB Goku>holding back Whis?
changes nothing. he can't use more than a certain amount of powerAlso he uses a technique to fly across the universe with the staff.
That is the implication tho. Goku having a faster than finite speed >>> finite speed holding back whisi didn't say that
forgot he existedSakon, who else?
that just proves Whis can do it as well but doesnt because he specifically isnt allowed to exert himself. even Beerus at one point considered Whis slow so that isnt something weird.That is the implication tho. Goku having a faster than finite speed >>> finite speed holding back whis
It does because Whis always uses the technique "warp" to travel. Meaning he himself is far slower than the staff. We have also Beerus a MUI tier character who is far below Whis warp.i didn't say that
changes nothing. he can't use more than a certain amount of power
When is Whis ever stated to not be allowed to use his full power / flight speed? The only restriction on Whis is that he can't take biased actions in conflicts.Whis explicitly isn't allowed to use his full power which means he cant fly at his full speeds either. another non-argument
wasnt that stated? maybe I am misremembering the statement idkWhen is Whis ever stated to not be allowed to use his full power / flight speed? The only restriction on Whis is that he can't take biased actions in conflicts.