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Dagoth jumpscare
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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Greetings
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And yet you're here.
And? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Just because the higher cosmology everything is embedded within has its own time, doesn't inherently mean this space, is a direct part of that higher time. You need direct, concrete, proof, it could very well just be its own thing like the RoSaT, **** if we know. Unfortunately, we have to know, conjecture won't cut it.
Then don't use it.
No, it's called proof. You're conflating things and drawing conclusions, based solely on assumptions, not actual evidence. That isn't being dishonest, it's saying stop guessing and hinging massive complex conclusions on "well, maybe?".
Why would I mention Ki control when talking about Goku being Imm being demonstrably wrong? It's you who decided to strawman and use AP=/=DC as some sort of argument, not me.
Literally Ki control, it just works. Hell the very Uni feat is a display of Ki control and limiting DC, Goku's whole goal was doing that, it's why earth lived yet the further it went, the more destructive it got, by punch 3, Goku was able to negate the collateral almost completely.
Literal strawman, instead of actually tackling the point, you bring up a completely unrelated topic and twist what was said, a bad one at that given it's totally incomparable, and somehow you think that because Goku doesn't whip out a uni feat every ep, something that has an actual established reason for, and has since like, DB, somehow means the speed argument, something that doesn't have an excuse for, is ok? Nah.
And yes, because thinking of the "Top" as "one" antifeat, simply isn't the case, it's an antifeat every episode, sometimes multiple times in one episode, it isn't a one and done type thing.
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oh yeah, what i meant is that the attack itself is only 1 punch, most of the time, and sometimes he doesn't move much, just saying that it isn't very extra complex up to that time
OHHHHHHH i see, my bad then
yeah i see, but it doesn't seem to be passive still, or if it is, not too fast, since Goku blocked and countered him a few times in a roll, maybe that is why he stalled for time with that fake out scream power up, to make his Time Skip better while Goku wasn't attacking him
to scape the KK Kamehameha, he......did something, we don't know what, we don't know for how long, and all we saw was him extending his arm and the air......cracked or something, it is really vague, and since as you said we don't know if he did against Goku, we can't say that Goku would be able to deal with it as well with his Analytical Prediction
the link you linked shows a clip of Goku getting his stomach punched, i assume you meant to link to another timeframe?
the manga is pretty different from the anime, so i wouldn't use it for the anime
oh he didn't, from the moment Hit improved his Time Skip Goku was unable to counter him anymore and got his beaten badly, only changed that when he went Blue KK10x
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Found it. It’s commented on that his Time Skip is lengthening, and he’s simply changing fighting styles/stances to better utilize that new Time Skip and level of power. He also was able to improve his Time Skip to catch SSBKK Goku, who-Y’know, had just moved Mid-Skip.
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yeah cuz I like powerscaling. lol what are you on about?
what do you mean? everything in the cosmology is within the timeline. you're claiming that the neutral zone lies outside of the timeline when its just not true? You're gonna need some extraordinary evidence for that. You're the one making lofty claims here not me lmao
sure, it could be, key word being "could". There's no evidence for it beyond it being called a separate dimension
I'm not lol i literally debunked my own argument using a better argument than whatever you're making right now
lol you're the one who drew conclusions through unsubstantiated assumptions just above not me. neutral zone being outside the timeline, it having its own temporal dimensions and all. all those are assumptions with not a modicum of proof to back them up.
you brought up the 30+ episodes making something an outlier not me.
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All this talking about time skip and what not got me wondering...Didn't goku predict Hit in base? Ya know the same dude that literally speed blitzed one spotted ssb vegeta. So...goku now casually predict people that are over 100 000 times faster than him? Or goku got fast enough that his base is above ssb vegeta? And I don't think hot was holding back on base goku. (Could be wrong). What do yall think about that?
Killerdrone123
He/Him- 2,062
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Well I was going for extraordinary genius for it but guess it was just greater analytical prediction
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possibly/likely is ur best bet tbh. I'd support it.
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It’s just Accelerated Dev/Reactive Evolution but named. (Meaning it should be inherently passive. It’s him improving “the old fashioned way,” but hyper quickly.) Also, it has to be relatively quick, because Vegeta literally comments on how he refuses to believe Hit has the Saiyan Trait but better due to speed and efficiency, and we see pretty clearly how good Saiyan evolution is. Not saying his is superior, but it must be comparable enough if it causes doubt in Vegeta.
He says he extended Time Skip even further. So presumably, he caught Goku in a .5+ Second Time Skip. That said, it does then imply the length of time was not varied. Given he can fully control when it turns on and off, though, it should still mean he can vary it. Especially with the Time Skip Feint.
Yeah, I did, but that clash is after the First Stance Change, so my point is covered regardless.
True.
He was able to predict and handle the first Stance change, but not the second. Goku even comments on this…”Is he really gonna go up to .2 Seconds? I just need to hold out, keeping taking in his attacks, and then adapt to that.” (Implying he was doing that and succeeding prior.)
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ok then, i guess him just stalling with the scream was the right call then, good to know
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outlier, Goku would normally be seen as frozen by Hit due to the blitz worth above 8.000.000x above him value that Hit would scale to, predicting is kind of useless when your opponent perceives you as a slow slug
BlastX
He/Him- 5,543
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I tried to do the same for a Naruto character with literally the same technique, it doesn't work as a multiplier, trust me.
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And as such, you have to actually adhere by the rules and standards
Damn, 5D normal uni time, 5D rosats, 5d everything...
The only thing that was accepted, is a higher time they're embedded within. Nothing more, nothing less. What the neutral zone even is, was never touched upon.
That's exactly my point, we don't know, at all, not even remotely, and assuming the funny big number route ain't how it works. You need to prove it, not guess it.
Your argument is conjecture. My argument is "actually prove it".
I didn't draw any conclusions. I'm aware you aren't reading the posts as per your own admission, but you could at least not make stuff up, I am telling you, it could be anything, it could have its own time, it could share one, it could be weird like the Rosat, it could be a flat blatant "theyre literally wrong" like the ToP, or hell maybe you're right. Fact of the matter is, we do not know, and your headcanon ain't gonna cut it. We need proof, not a "well i think".
Yes, because in the case of Imm speed, the 30+ episode ToP where every episode makes it blatantly obvious they ain't Imm, and 5D time ain't changing that, at all, is, in and of itself, a literal fuckton of antifeats and inexcusable contradictions. AP and DC, doesn't have this issue because DBZ establishes ki control as to why it isn't the case, ie, your example and strawman was bad.
And hey, you brought it up, it ain't irrelevant if your point hinges on it.
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meh, maybe? but then again, i don't think it would matter much, so i abstain from arguing further
that was after the KK Kamehameha, it was during their final confrontation
i mean.....duh? not wanting to sound rude, it is just that it sounds logical, but point is.......i don't think we ever saw him doing that to Goku, usually he just uses the full length for greater efficiency, after he improved he just mocked Goku for thinking that a small increase wouldn't make a difference, then he went there and nearly beat him with it
what is your point again? kind of lost for a sec
yeah, for 1 attack only, still nothing extreme or anything since it was still only 0.1 seconds amount of movement he had to predict, but still decent i would say
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Yeah probably outlier, because if treat as as a non outlier, everyone that can fight goku on equal footing [or even surpassed him slightly in terms of speed] either is over hundreds of thousands of times faster than goku, or has an insane level of analytical prediction.
Tho we can argue either hit just held back on goku, or goku got a zenkai from analyzing hit.
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and one of those "rules" is to establish "credibility" in the eyes of other users? Lol yeah rightAnd as such, you have to actually adhere by the rules and standards
and you said I strawmanned. the disingenuousness on your part is honestly frightening
doesn't change the fact that the higher temporal dimension is the only way (that is currently accepted) for time to flow in a place like that
you're the one making guesses here lmao. My "guess" is based off of a literal simple logical inference of what is already accepted on the site. you saying that it has its own temporal dimension, or lies outside the timeline is a wild guess that's not based on anything accepted or not.
right, remind me who was it that said that the neutral zone has its own temporal dimension or lies outside the timeline? I'm ngl your takes are goofy asf sometimes
if there was evidence for any of that or if any of that was accepted then sure.
Same as above. my conclusion is just making a simple inference via what's already accepted. and the funny thing is my inference would actually be completely true even IF there was no 5D time in the verse but instead the entire timeline was just low 2-C because it literally is the ONLY correct way to interpret this lmao. your conclusions would still not be true because 1.) there'd still be no evidence of it having its own temporal dimension and 2.) it can't "share" a temporal dimension from any adjacent universes because if it did then the universes themselves would no longer be low 2-C but 3-A structures, the timeline would be the low 2-C structure which is where the neutral zone gets its temporal dimension from which is literally the same as my argument the only difference being a low 1-C timeline as opposed to low 2-C
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i mean "no kill rule" would make him obligated to hold back i feel
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I mean...not really no. You can still go all out and not hold back. And even if he did, he won't make himself magically thousands of times slower. [And Hit is a guy who goes for the fastest way to end a fight].
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It's a funny thought that goku can overcome hundreds of thousands times speed difference via skill alone.
Or we can use it as a feat of zenkai
Or we can use it as a feat of zenkai
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which character?
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I mean, no that's common sense, like take agrees or disagrees, nobody is gonna take you seriously if "yeah lol didnt read".
Yes, because you did. And yes, because if 5D this, why not 5D those? Like the Rosat, what's the difference? We know the Rosat ain't a part of the universe, but time passes, so what time is it?
We do not know, if we do not know, stop trying to conclude based on headcanon.
Just like the Rosat yes? Why is it the only way? You're drawing your conclusion first before actually looking at the proof.
Hmm? I'm saying prove it, it's open to interpretation, multiple in fact, your high-end one, isn't any more likely, or unlikely, than any other, whether or not you agree.
Your simple logical inference applies to any other interpretation as well.
What is accepted, is that cosmology has a 5D time, and the universe is embedded within them, nothing more, nothing less.
You did actually, I simply said "Could be". Keep track of the conversation please.
The multiple worlds and dimensions and gaps that exist outside of a standard universe yet have their own unique time-space sets precedence if you really want to go that route.
Your conclusion is conjecture, but how about this? Post a statement confirming it, 5D time.
The fact time flows at all. The default assumption isn't "oh it very clearly has time but isn't part of the universe, it must be 5D time", it's "damn it has time just like the countless other shit". You're extrapolating, we don't do that. We do not know what it's apart of.
You're making a self fulfilling argument lad. It doesn't need to be any of that shit, and presuming your take, which, mind you, isn't even implied or stated, must be the only logical conclusion, is asinine.
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honestly this is beyond tiring, I'm not gonna bother reading any of that and attempt to explain again only for you to replace my entire argument with your strawman. take that however you want
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,358
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Hear me out, but what if, the ToP time was Immeasurable, like what happens if an Immeasurable speed lad starts counting ya know
BlastX
He/Him- 5,543
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Sakon, who else?
Killerdrone123
He/Him- 2,062
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that was essentially my argument but the nature of the neutral zone debunks that.
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I really like seeing the fear in people's eyes because of the immeasurable speed of Dragon Ball or something like that
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Well just make the Universe Infinite and then well ummm
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Whis explicitly isn't allowed to use his full power which means he cant fly at his full speeds either. another non-argument
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So SSB Goku>holding back Whis? Also he always uses a technique to fly across the universe with the staff. So it's heavily implied without it he is far slower.
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i didn't say that
changes nothing. he can't use more than a certain amount of power
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That is the implication tho. Goku having a faster than finite speed >>> finite speed holding back whis
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forgot he existed
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that just proves Whis can do it as well but doesnt because he specifically isnt allowed to exert himself. even Beerus at one point considered Whis slow so that isnt something weird.
regardless the feat is still an outlier. I just wanted to show why veronica's "reasoning" was bad as always
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It does because Whis always uses the technique "warp" to travel. Meaning he himself is far slower than the staff. We have also Beerus a MUI tier character who is far below Whis warp.
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When is Whis ever stated to not be allowed to use his full power / flight speed? The only restriction on Whis is that he can't take biased actions in conflicts.
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wasnt that stated? maybe I am misremembering the statement idk
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