Dragon Ball Possible Upgrades

[AwkguyDB]

Question is Porunga confirmed stronger than Shenron?

 

[Dragomer]

Question is Porunga confirmed stronger than Shenron?

IIRC, that's what the whole three wish thing was all about, same for ressurecting people multiple time, it was there to say Porunga is stronger but i have no idea if it hold true for Dende's era.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

IIRC, different physics in equates to different Space Time correct?

 

[DTG499]

We've kinda gone through this multiple times. The consensus is that the "not finite" statement refers to the fact that the multiverse is constantly expanding due to timelines being created over smol things, not that it is outright infinite.

I feel like there needs to be two types of infinity when it comes to the comparison of multiversal and universal structures that never stop increasing in size to the ones that are JUST infinite. False infinity or dynamic infinity for the infinitely expanding structures. True infinity or static infinity for the structures that have no being or end and just always infinite. Low 3-A for the finite nonexpanding, 3-A for the infinitely expanding universes. 2-B+ for the infinitely expanding multiverse. Just a suggestion, what do you guys think?

 

[HAKKAIDER]

I AGREE

 

[ChocomilkAlex]

I feel like that would overcomplicate things a bit, but I think that would be a good idea.

 

[DTG499]

maybe not the tier changes but at least a note on the ap section stating such

 

[GarrixianXD]

2-C Goku and Vegeta

 

[Leon_Help4]

I guess i find 2-C reasonable for Goks

 

[ByAsura]

Isn't the whole deal with shenron that he cannot grant wishes beyond his creator's own power, and Shenron was able to recreate the moon which suggests Kami should be at that level, this could support Moon level Goku.

It could also be hax. The Dragon specifically has hax that Kami doesn't

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Creation stills counts as AP right?

 

[ByAsura]

It can be AP or placed in a similar league to Environmental Destruction.

 

[Stefano4444]

It could also be hax. The Dragon specifically has hax that Kami doesn't

While Shenron possess hax that Kami doesn't have, the dragon's limits are still depend by his creator's limits, so technically speaking if Shenron can destroy/create something/someone, then Kami would be able to do the same (especially since Kami should possess Magic Materialization like Piccolo, meaning he could potentially replicate any Creation feats of Shenron).

Also, know that i think about didn't Kami restore the Moon by himself, without Shenron?

 

[Stefano4444]

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/721475427022155776

I know that is from the Anime, but if i remember correctly the same quote was in the Manga.

 

[ByAsura]

It's in the manga, as well. But they don't say Kami specifically was going to do it or that he actually did.


Shenron says he can't perform a wish that surpasses his creator's power, not that he doesn't have specific hax. Also, creating a being isn't the same as restoring the moon.

 

[Stefano4444]

It's in the manga, as well. But they don't say Kami specifically was going to do it.

Are you sure? Goku do say that Kami did take his tail and well as restoring the Moon.

And if it was the case, wouldn't Goku also specify Kami using the Dragon Balls? Or Yamcha and Krillin mention that they were had be used?

And i not like Yamcha and Krillin wouldn't know, since the summoning affect the entire planet (aka the entire sky turn completely dark).

 

[ByAsura]

Goku's not exactly being the most reliable narrator of events, so it's possible Kami did and he just didn't mention it. Also, we don't even know that Kami restored the moon, there's a 6 year time gap between the end of the tournament (which Kami participated in) and when Vegeta finds no moon on Earth during his battle with the Z-Fighters.

The moon is only shown to be restored during Frieza's arrival on Earth, which takes place a year and a half after Goku beats Frieza.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

You mean the moon Piccolo destroyed in the saiyan saga?

 

[ByAsura]

You're right. I'm just fairly tired right now.

That still leaves a 5 year gap for the moon to be restored, however.

 

[AKM sama]

That statement about being as strong as the creator makes no sense and is just an inconsistent plot device.

For example, Shenron can't kill Nappa because he's "stronger", but can resurrect even stronger beings. They can't make Android 18 human because she's "stronger" but can take away her bomb which would classify as a body part. They can also teleport people stronger than them.

 

[Dragomer]

It's more of a 'can't do it against their will' kind of deal rather than 'not at all'.

And the cyborgs were a particular case because Shenron would need to basicaly reconstruct them on a cellular level and i doubt anyone would agree to that, even if they did there is probably some kind of survival instinct reaction.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Like when Goku refused to come back from Yardrat.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

That was just Goku resisting the dragon I think.

 

[ByAsura]

The one who couldn't bring Goku back was Porunga, Shenron has consistently resurrected millions to billions of people, likely against at least someone's wishes.

Shenron didn't say it was "against the Androids' will", he specifically said they were too strange and powerful to alter a fundamental part of their being.

 

[Dragomer]

Those rare dudes weren't stronger than Kami so their wish don't matter and they get ressurected, Shenron can't affect someone above Kami without their consent but he can perfectly affect random people.

He litteraly say he cannot affect them 'against their will' in the first scan, dude.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok. Anyway, it's still Porunga, who has unique limitations.

You're right about that. However, he also says he cannot affect "such creatures" against their will, implying it's only the androids. Also, Shenron implies he can make any change so long as it doesn't weaken them or isn't a fundamental alteration, so not everything would be consensual.

 

[Dragomer]

Ok. Anyway, it's still Porunga, who has unique limitations.
You're right about that. However, he also says he cannot affect "such creatures" against their will, implying it's only the androids. Also, Shenron implies he can make any change so long as it doesn't weaken them or isn't a fundamental alteration, so not everything would be consensual.

Plus, all of this

Euh, no, dude, Goku refused SHENRON's teleportation on earth and your very own scan has SHENRON saying that power is the defining feature here, they both have that limitation, it's not specific to Porunga (i wouldn't exactly call it a limitation for them, it's more of a resistance thing for everyone / ki.)

Teleporting Goku didn't weaken him or change his fundamental being and yet Shenron couldn't do it, all Shenron's statement mean is that if the guy has a knife or eaten some kind of device, he can teleport it away but that's pretty much all he can do when someone too strong is involved.

 

[ByAsura]

No, Goku refused PORUNGA's attempts to teleport him to Earth in the Frieza Saga, not Shenron, and he asked that everyone except himself and Frieza be teleported to Earth earlier. If you're talking about the Cell saga, that's because Goku had already been resurrected before.

Shenron doesn't say it's a defining feature, he says he can't affect the Androids due to their strange and great powers.

IIRC, Goku even has to tell Kibito not to use the Dragon Balls to resurrect him instead of just refusing outright. This might have been anime only, though.

Anyway, all of these arguments don't matter, because the simple fact is we don't know who recreated the moon or how long it took. Though it could be enough for a possibly Moon level rating.

 

[AKM sama]

It's more of a 'can't do it against their will' kind of deal rather than 'not at all'.

Pure headcanon. Wish granting dragons don't work like that. The only "will" they care about is the one who's making the wish. They never ask for anybody else's will like they never asked anybody before teleporting them from Namek to Earth, or reviving them, or removing the bomb from 18, or teleporting someone to Vampa, or bringing back all the erased universes who didn't even have the souls. These people don't even know what's going on.

The only time someone flat out resisted it was Goku when Porunga tried to teleport him but Goku flat out refused to come back.

 

[Eminiteable]

Could be possible reviving people just isn't a strength demanding task based on the individual involved; Baba is able to do it and so is Yemma at least temporarily.

 

[DTG499]

@aka sama While yes there wasn't a direct question asked to the people who got wished upon by the dragons, all those situations were life or death. People always have that intrinsic will to live. When the other option is death I'm sure the willingness for it is already there.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Didn't Goku refuse to return to Earth, when Gohan and the others tried to wish him back after learning he was alive Post-Namek? Whereas Shenron was incapable of killing or stopping Vegeta and Nappa, who were obviously FAR weaker or was Shenron being unable to teleport Vegeta and Nappa just filler/PIS?

 

[Dragomer]

It's more of a 'can't do it against their will' kind of deal rather than 'not at all'.

Pure headcanon. Wish granting dragons don't work like that. The only "will" they care about is the one who's making the wish. They never ask for anybody else's will like they never asked anybody before teleporting them from Namek to Earth, or reviving them, or removing the bomb from 18, or teleporting someone to Vampa, or bringing back all the erased universes who didn't even have the souls. These people don't even know what's going on.
The only time someone flat out resisted it was Goku when Porunga tried to teleport him but Goku flat out refused to come back.

No, that's actual, real canon, Shenron say so directly for the saiyans, then says so directly for Goku after Namek and post Cell was the same deal, they couldn't ressurect Goku because she didn't want to.

Also people barring Goku and Freezer were either willing or weaklings, they can't affect STRONGER beings against their will.

Broly was about to die, i'm sure he was happy to get away.

the SDB specificaly don't have limitation so bringing them up has no point.

No, Goku refused PORUNGA's attempts to teleport him to Earth in the Frieza Saga, not Shenron, and he asked that everyone except himself and Frieza be teleported to Earth earlier. If you're talking about the Cell saga, that's because Goku had already been resurrected before.
No, litteraly the second after they learn he is alive, they ask to bring Goku back to earth in the namek saga and Shenron say 'not possible, he doesn't want to'.

Shenron doesn't say it's a defining feature, he says he can't affect the Androids due to their strange and great powers.
Yes, GREAT powers, just like with the saiyans.

 

[ByAsura]

That's not what happens at all. Porunga (still not Shenron) says he can't because Goku isn't dead.




You're making up explainations now. The Androids are partially mechanical humans, not aliens, so the two aren't even comparable.

 

[Dragomer]

I never said the Saiyans were part mechanical, i'm saying that they too were unaffected because 'great powers'.

Also the Cyborgs don't have mechnical part, they were actualy modified on the cellular level, they are more bio-tech than actualy anything mechanical like C16.

 

[ByAsura]

I wasn't implying you did, I'm just saying their powers are completely different. Once again, Shenron says their powers are strange and great, it's not just the level of power.

That just reinforces my point further, if anything. IIRC, the bombs are the only outright mechanical part.

Also, you don't need to unnecessarily quote posts.

 

[AKM sama]

No, that's actual, real canon, Shenron say so directly for the saiyans, then says so directly for Goku after Namek and post Cell was the same deal, they couldn't ressurect Goku because she didn't want to.

Nope. Shenron never said anything like he can't grant a wish on someone against their will when he was asked to kill the saiyans. Apart from that questionably translated scan involving Android 18. Also, Goku came out first and said he didn't want to be revived, the wish was never made.

Also people barring Goku and Freezer were either willing or weaklings, they can't affect STRONGER beings against their will.
Yes because the likes of Vegeta and Gohan were clearly weaker than Guru, right? And no, they weren't willing, read the manga. They didn't even know what happened until Dende told them on Earth. Neither did Shenron ever ask Goku before bringing him back to life. He just did as he was wished and the halo over Goku's head vanished. That's when Goku noticed he was alive.

Broly was about to die, i'm sure he was happy to get away.
Show where Shenron asked for Broly's permission and when did Broly give him permission. Don't make up headcanon.

The only time it happened was when Porunga was wished to teleport Goku, he paused for a moment that was longer than his usual style (which shows he tried during that time) and failed. Goku lolnope'd the wish and told Porunga he didn't want to come and Porunga was powerless.

 

[AKM sama]

Also I'd question the translation of that scan where Shenron says "against their will" part when asked to turn Android 18 into human. IIRC it is a mistranslation and all he really said was that they were much stronger and therefore Shenron's unable to do it. At least that is what all the other translations I've read of the scene say. It doesn't even match the context as there was no "asking for her will" and "her declining" invloved. She was legit surprised too when Shenron said it can't be done because she is stronger. So she was clearly not involved in any of that.

 

[Dragomer]

snip

Yeah, totaly headcanon, sorry i forgot the totaly canon fact that Full Power Broly was stupidly weaker than Nappa.

 

[AKM sama]

I didn't even say that. If you read correctly, I was questioning the whole premise of dragons "not being able to affect them against their will".