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I took the liberty of organizing the OP, going from Primary Material, guides, and then Alternate Anime.
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Dragon Ball: Infinite Universe
- Thread starter Reiner04
- Start date
- Status
- 361
- 238
I have some doubts, it seems more that he is referring to the Universe expanding infinitely and not that in fact it is infinite, in fact, is there any proof that the DBS Mangá Universe is infinite too?, If my memory serves me correctly, there's an episode of the Anime where Whis says that the Earth is at the center of the universe, right? Doesn't that already contradict the Infinite Universe?
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In the manga, jaco says there are countless glaxi
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I agree.
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I agree that the universe is infinite, in fact there is a possibility that the universe is retcon, but almost all the arguments we have support an infinite universe.
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Absolutely agree. Infinite Universe Dragon Ball is a long time coming.
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the universe expanding infinitely disproves it being infinite??
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DivineAura44
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1. It being expanding and infinite size isn't necessarily mutually exclusive. He could mean both.
2. If you take something of finite size, find its center and stretch it infinitely in 2 opposite directions, the center would remain the same despite the object now being of infinite size so I don't think it having a center proves it is finite.
3. The OP addresses this claim and says Bulma could be talking about the observable universe, not the entire thing.
DivineAura44
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Why are you responding to him and not Ground who's making the counterargument?
Last edited:
DivineAura44
He/Him- 5,204
- 3,371
Continue from here.
Primary Source
Scan 1
Super Anime - Episode 29:
Combat Matches Are a Go! The Captain Is Someone Stronger Than Goku
"Combat Matches Are a Go! The Captain Is Someone Stronger Than Goku" (格かく闘とう試し合あい開かい催さい決けっ定てい！主しゅ将しょうは悟ご空くうより強つよいヤツ, Kakutō Shiai Kaisai Kettei! Shushō wa Gokū yori Tsuyoi Yatsu, lit. "It's Settled: We're Holding a Martial Arts Match! The Team Captain's Even Stronger Than Goku") is the...dragonball.fandom.com
It is supported in the anime, where Shenron mentions space to have a boundless expanse.
Scan 2
Super Anime - Episode 29:
Combat Matches Are a Go! The Captain Is Someone Stronger Than Goku
"Combat Matches Are a Go! The Captain Is Someone Stronger Than Goku" (格かく闘とう試し合あい開かい催さい決けっ定てい！主しゅ将しょうは悟ご空くうより強つよいヤツ, Kakutō Shiai Kaisai Kettei! Shushō wa Gokū yori Tsuyoi Yatsu, lit. "It's Settled: We're Holding a Martial Arts Match! The Team Captain's Even Stronger Than Goku") is the...
There are places beyond the edge of the Observable Universe that we see in Super since it's littered with stars and light. See the guide scans below for more details.
Guides
Daizenshuu 4
Scan 1
"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach."
Scan 2
This Daizenshuu scan refers to what we're calling the 'Observable Universe' here, it talks about an infinitely expanding light but with darkness that still dwells before it, and creatures that live there. This is the section where the Four Kaio govern their own associated cardinal direction holding countless galaxies.
"The infinitely expanding universe is determined mainly by the direction that each king manages, and the place managed by the king is supervised by the king of the world, and the gods of the north, south, east, and west manage the Universe. Ultimately, the Great King God is supposed to oversee the whole world."
It's in the Unobservable Universe that lays beyond the edge. There are no contradictions. Everything is in line with the show.
Daizenshuu 4
Now, for the scans on the infinite nature of the entirety of the Living World:
"An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives"
Daizenshuu 7
"An endless space that envelops all celestial bodies that exist in this world."
Chozenshu 4
Translation credits: here
The full quote from the guide is exactly here
Alternate Timelines
Toei/GT
Scan 1
What lies beyond, is the 'Unobservable Universe.' We call it Unobservable, because it's stated to be beyond the Stars and contain no light, and it is the same place where Yakon was stated to come from and reside in, and the place that they fought him in.
Next Up, Goku
"Next Up, Goku" (悟ご空くうパワー全ぜん開かい!! ブッ飛とべヤコン, Gokū Pawā Zenkai!! Buttobe Yakon, lit. "Goku's Power Wide Open!! Blow Away Yakon") is the fourth episode of the Babidi Saga and the two hundred twenty-third overall episode in the original dubbed and the uncut Dragon Ball Z series. This episode first...
Dark Star
This article is about Yakon's home world. For the planet with a similar name, see Dark Planet. Dark Star, or the Planet of Darkness (暗黒星, Ankokusei), is the homeworld of Yakon, one of Babidi's minions. During the battle in Babidi's Spaceship, Goku battled against Yakon, a strange dark green...
Scan 2
In GT, as well it has been supported that there are boundless galaxies.
GT has been accepted to be a alternate timeline and canon to super aka same cosmological structure to prime universe.
DBGT Episode 2:
People read incomplete Daizenshuu pages at surface level, see that it refers to both a Universe that is infinitely expanding and outright infinite, and falsely conclude that it has inconsistencies. This is false. The same people do this and end up thinking that the DB Universe only has 4 galaxies.
Read all available information, and with the proper context provided you will understand how the DB cosmology works. It's a cosmology that contains both an infinitely expanding Universe, and an infinite Universe.
Also about Bulma statement that they live at the edge of the Universe is kinda being overused and ignoring all the previous statements, also that it seems highly unlikely for eartg or milky way galaxy to be at the edge, it is more reasonable that Bulma is talking about observable Universe.
Agree: @Aachintya31 , @BestMGQScalerEver , @LuffyRuffy46307, @Guacamolefletcher, @pineappleman, @Da3ggman, @Quasar002, @K_o_Karlyn, @1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void, @Robo, @VegetaSama1453 , @Jaakor48, @Matrixxxx, @Lord_Farquaad69420
Disagree:
Neutral: @LordGriffin1000, @DarkDragonMedeus , @Damage3245
Mark me as agree for now.
I think it would be easier if you added some of the counterarguments to the post. I'll see if I can gather some but idk.
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I hadn't noticed.
Vietthai96
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Bruhh, there is like three statements in the guidebook, 1 is infinitely expanding, 2 is infinite space of light and darkness, 3 is endless space; not just only the infinitely expanding.
Also for peoples who argued that infinitely expanding contradict something that is infinite then no lol, infinite isn't a number, it mean no end, something which already infinite can still continue to increases, expand its size/length/etc....
Anyway, i always agree with infinite universe for DB, but for someone for participated in so many topic about this, i'm tired
Also for peoples who argued that infinitely expanding contradict something that is infinite then no lol, infinite isn't a number, it mean no end, something which already infinite can still continue to increases, expand its size/length/etc....
Anyway, i always agree with infinite universe for DB, but for someone for participated in so many topic about this, i'm tired
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What do you think about DB's universe being infinite?
DivineAura44
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Yeah this is what I said in better words. It can be both infinite size and infinitely expanding.
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It's gonna be the same ish, "infinitely expanding isn't infinite " (when guidebooks say it's expansive meaning it's infinite in size + ignores tht there is an observable nd unobservable aspect of the living universe) "bulma statement " (which only speaks on observable universe nd an infinite universe can still have a center nd stretch infinitely beyond tht point) or "these are from old guides, super retcon this" (when u literally have shenron saying the universe is infinite and the series follows the same cosmology that's been established, it just has more universes like it i.e. u6,u11 etc.). Another one will be "super shenron light was showing in the neutral zone nd it only shows galaxies( ignoring tht u literally can't show infinity in animation)
I don't mean to derail, but I'm willing to bet my entire month's of earnings any of those are gonna be brought up. Tbh I feel like peeps are not tryna have what's been true for so many years, be actually true nd are scared of the upgrades.
I'll stop nd watch nd can't wait for this to be applied. Cus it's going to be. Too much evidence, literally.
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- Thread starter
- #138
Thanks!
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,141
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ah yeah, i do remember the infinitely expanding translation part, other translation is infinitely expansive
- 9,982
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- Thread starter
- #142
As Dragonball Mortal world is specifically based on irl Universe, it is safe to say it is consist of known and unknown Universe supported by guide books as the part of light and darkness, infinitely expanding seems to referring towards scattering of all mass, light in the Universe across infinite Universe continuously. Bulma statement taking seriously for explicit actual Universe is kinda Dumb as it seems to show that Galaxy is at the end of the Universe that is highly unlikely, not only it would make character aware that Universe is not everything but they will continuously be able to leave the Universe in and out at a will, Bulma seems to talking about observation universe. Also centre can mean a place through which all events can be analysed equally.
Yes. but a talk for later.
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Whis never gives any statements of a Universe’s size but he explains the Universes add up to 13 with their pair number also it calls the galactic illuminations infinitely expanding
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When was this stated in Dragon Ball?
That would clear up my issues with Super Shenrons light though should provide a source for this in the OP that links to this standard.
As for other stuff brought up in other comments like infinite expansion. I wouldn't say that contradicts the whole universe already being infinite, just that the observable universe is expanding across the infinite space since their is shown to be space beyond it and if you add in guides they say their is infinite darkness beyond it so you could say the entire universe is infinite while the observable universe is constantly expanding throughout it so statements like them being at the edge could just refer to the observable universe like the OP mentioned.
I guess you can switch me to the agreeing side for right now. I was neutral because I was waiting for some solid counter points but until those show up I don't have any major issues at this time.
It's a pretty controversial topic that has been discussed before so I'm not surprised if people want to remain neutral until all things are properly discussed.Bro what will it take for a mod that isn't neutral to show up
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Continue from here.
Primary Source
Scan 1
Super Anime - Episode 29:
Combat Matches Are a Go! The Captain Is Someone Stronger Than Goku
"Combat Matches Are a Go! The Captain Is Someone Stronger Than Goku" (格かく闘とう試し合あい開かい催さい決けっ定てい！主しゅ将しょうは悟ご空くうより強つよいヤツ, Kakutō Shiai Kaisai Kettei! Shushō wa Gokū yori Tsuyoi Yatsu, lit. "It's Settled: We're Holding a Martial Arts Match! The Team Captain's Even Stronger Than Goku") is the...
It is supported in the anime, where Shenron mentions space to have a boundless expanse.
Exept when we see the universe from outside and there is a bound in form bubles around the universes
The point is there there is an edge, bulma is talking about the area she has to scan in search of the super dragon balls, if the universe was infinite changing position wouldn't matter for scaning the entire area since the distance would be the same since it would be infiniteScan 2
Super Anime - Episode 29:
Combat Matches Are a Go! The Captain Is Someone Stronger Than Goku
"Combat Matches Are a Go! The Captain Is Someone Stronger Than Goku" (格かく闘とう試し合あい開かい催さい決けっ定てい！主しゅ将しょうは悟ご空くうより強つよいヤツ, Kakutō Shiai Kaisai Kettei! Shushō wa Gokū yori Tsuyoi Yatsu, lit. "It's Settled: We're Holding a Martial Arts Match! The Team Captain's Even Stronger Than Goku") is the...
There are places beyond the edge of the Observable Universe that we see in Super since it's littered with stars and light. See the guide scans below for more details.
This one of king kai is not talking about any "observable universe" anywhere, it is only talking about "the universe" in general, no where in the scan it says what you saidGuides
Daizenshuu 4
Scan 1
"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach."
Scan 2
This Daizenshuu scan refers to what we're calling the 'Observable Universe' here, it talks about an infinitely expanding light but with darkness that still dwells before it, and creatures that live there. This is the section where the Four Kaio govern their own associated cardinal direction holding countless galaxies.
"The infinitely expanding universe is determined mainly by the direction that each king manages, and the place managed by the king is supervised by the king of the world, and the gods of the north, south, east, and west manage the Universe. Ultimately, the Great King God is supposed to oversee the whole world."
no, it says that it is talking about "the whole world" there, so it is talking about the entire universe, so it is a contradiction
This says that both light and darkness are infiniteDaizenshuu 4
Now, for the scans on the infinite nature of the entirety of the Living World:
"An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives"
Daizenshuu 7
"An endless space that envelops all celestial bodies that exist in this world."
Chozenshu 4
Translation credits: here
The full quote from the guide is exactly here
This was discussed in the thread about gt, cosmology does not scale due to MWI, all possibities become real, so all possibilities for cosmology also become real, so this is not relevant hereAlternate Timelines
Toei/GT
Scan 1
What lies beyond, is the 'Unobservable Universe.' We call it Unobservable, because it's stated to be beyond the Stars and contain no light, and it is the same place where Yakon was stated to come from and reside in, and the place that they fought him in.Next Up, Goku
"Next Up, Goku" (悟ご空くうパワー全ぜん開かい!! ブッ飛とべヤコン, Gokū Pawā Zenkai!! Buttobe Yakon, lit. "Goku's Power Wide Open!! Blow Away Yakon") is the fourth episode of the Babidi Saga and the two hundred twenty-third overall episode in the original dubbed and the uncut Dragon Ball Z series. This episode first...
Dark Star
This article is about Yakon's home world. For the planet with a similar name, see Dark Planet. Dark Star, or the Planet of Darkness (暗黒星, Ankokusei), is the homeworld of Yakon, one of Babidi's minions. During the battle in Babidi's Spaceship, Goku battled against Yakon, a strange dark green...
Scan 2
In GT, as well it has been supported that there are boundless galaxies.
GT has been accepted to be a alternate timeline and canon to super aka same cosmological structure to prime universe.
DBGT Episode 2:
People read incomplete Daizenshuu pages at surface level, see that it refers to both a Universe that is infinitely expanding and outright infinite, and falsely conclude that it has inconsistencies. This is false. The same people do this and end up thinking that the DB Universe only has 4 galaxies.
Read all available information, and with the proper context provided you will understand how the DB cosmology works. It's a cosmology that contains both an infinitely expanding Universe, and an infinite Universe.
.
"Also about Bulma statement that they live at the edge of the Universe is kinda being overused and ignoring all the previous statements, also that it seems highly unlikely for eartg or milky way galaxy to be at the edge, it is more reasonable that Bulma is talking about observable Universe"
Why it is "unlikely"? The statement itself never says anything about it taling about only an specific part of the universe
Here is my summary from the earlier thread, it was agreed to have a new thread to be created after both sides made summaries, kind of dishonest that the promise wasn't kept
The counter argument being used for the universe having an edge is that it is the edge of the "observable/light part" of the universe and that after that there is an infinite darkness that is infinite in size, but when we see the universe from an outside perspective we see no greater darkness surrounding a light part of it, which would disqualify this said darkness from even being a thing at all, some brought up how we don't see the other dimensions of the macrocosm, but since they are other dimensions they would be in other planes of existance and wouldn't be seeable from an outside perspective, plus the model used to say that they would be seeable is never used in the dbz manga and dbs anime so the series depiction takes precedence over it anyway,
it says
that it is talking about any observable universe in place of the entire universe, and we have no reason to believe that it is talking about an specific part of it, which is further corroborated by the fact that the whole point of bulma wanting to go to the center of the universe in the first place was to be able to scan the entirety of space to search for the super dragon balls
the statement itself never specified
Dude stop bringing Brazilian scans everytime, they have no value here, bring only translation from japanese
If the argument is about the darkness being the infinite thing, then why are we bringing scans about the supposed "observable universe"?
That is also a valid point i feel
Firestorm didn't agreed
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Put me down for agreement on at least infinite size universes fod Toei. But I'm neutral about Infinite size for Super. And if someone disagrees with infinite size because "It says infinitely expanding, thus not infimte hurr durr" while ignoring the infinitely expansive statement, their disagreement shouldn't be valid.
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Could you please not derail the thread?Lmao
Lmao what I'd say
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- Thread starter
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We accepts Multiverse to be a insignificant 5D space, aka uncountable Infinite, so it's no wonder to look at a edge that is Infinite distance away from outside, alot of verses has been accepted to be Infinite despite looking as it barely contradicts anything.
I've been with firestorm for long, He is in support with the OP or else he has questioned the scans and statements rather than fixing it and don't reply to anything. He agrees.
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I'm done, not my fault u a glutton for punishment
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dude stopI'm done, not my fault u a glutton for punishment
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Okay i concede on that point, there is still the others tho
He never said that he agrees tho, he organizing doesn't mean that automatically
Why so hostile?I'm done, not my fault u a glutton for punishment
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This is why it was agreed to make both sides to make summaries and made an exclussive staff thread to evaluate both sides fairly, too bad that promise was broken
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Dude, I translated your proof and it infinity it's eternal.
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The visuals depictions literally doesn't mean anything over statements. Here, universes are shown to be smaller than humans and zeno palace.
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im not being such. I've read every thread nd you steadily been debunked over nd over about the same points. You had no real counter, even to this thread. All I said earlier was the truth nd you proved my point in prime fashion. Ima stop tho cus ion wanna hurt anymore feelings
.- Status
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