Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse immeasurable speed upgrade

[Dominodalek]

No. They power nulled him and he reverted back to his old form

Also TokiToki can create time from nothing so that isn't really impressive.

These "problems" Don't exist. Sorry

Only in the arcade. In the manga and anime, he was still in TPU when they sealed him.

As you said though, Tokitoki can create time. I wouldn't say that restoring an entire infinite multiverse from nothing isn't impressive, but it's established that Tokitoki has that level of control over time, that was just the first time it was actually shown.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

No. They power nulled him and he reverted back to his old form

N-no? The reason they needed to restore time in the first place was because all of it was sealed along with Mechikabura.

Also TokiToki can create time from nothing so that isn't really impressive.

res·to·ra·tion

1. the action of returning something to a former owner, place, or condition.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Game > Manga > Anime, Nullflowerblush.

That's how Heroes works. If there's evidence of a statement being different in the game, that's it.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

“Backwards scaling” doesn’t answer my question.

Idk what you’re saying. You’re saying Trunks shouldn’t scale to Mechikabura in speed despite literally fighting and keeping up with him.

No one scales to IZ’s speed either so why was he brought up? I’m honestly confused here. I hope this isn’t coming off as confrontational.

You’re confused huh? Maybe it has to do with you literally saying you don’t know much about DBH. Anyway IZ being so much faster than everyone makes no sense, especially considering he was killed before he could kill the TP and the others in the time nest. If he was immeasurably faster than TP and co, he’d have killed them all before they’d even know what happened. Unfortunately IZ was killed before he could kill them.

 

[Dominodalek]

Game > Manga > Anime, Nullflowerblush.

That's how Heroes works. If there's evidence of a statement being different in the game, that's it.

If only it were that simple, but unfortunately they all tell different stories using the same plot elements. While we can use something from one continuity to fill in the gaps of another, that doesn't mean a higher continuity completely overrides a lower one.

Anyway, Tokitoki does that in the game too - while it's not shown on-screen, his ability to do it is brought up by Chronoa and Demigra after Mechikabura destroys spacetime - that's why he was at the Time Nest in the game, to kill Tokitoki before he could undo everything.

You’re confused huh? Maybe it has to do with you literally saying you don’t know much about DBH. Anyway IZ being so much faster than everyone makes no sense, especially considering he was killed before he could kill the TP and the others in the time nest. If he was immeasurably faster than TP and co, he’d have killed them all before they’d even know what happened. Unfortunately IZ was killed before he could kill them.

He wasn't trying to kill them though, he was taunting them. He had a whole 30 seconds of screen-time where he could have easily blasted the TP if he wanted to.

 

[Sera_EX]

You’re confused huh? Maybe it has to do with you literally saying you don’t know much about DBH.

I’m not sure why you’re coming in so hot. Yes, I’m not fully informed on DBH and couldn’t read all the thread posts for reasons already given, but I am pretty knowledgeable on immeasurable speed as a whole (in any possible variation, so even if the definition changes, I know about it). I’m just trying to help here.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

You’re confused huh? Maybe it has to do with you literally saying you don’t know much about DBH.

I’m not sure why you’re coming in so hot. Yes, I’m not fully informed on DBH and couldn’t read all the thread posts for reasons already given, but I am pretty knowledgeable on immeasurable speed as a whole (in any possible variation, so even if the definition changes, I know about it). I’m just trying to help here.

Question, us it possible to be above baseline immeasurable speed, or are all immeasurable speed beings equal? no hax involved.

 

[Sera_EX]

Access to more dimensions is an easy to be above baseline immeasurable due to adding more variables to the equation. Essentially it makes it “more immeasurable”, as redundant as that sounds.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Access to more dimensions is an easy to be above baseline immeasurable due to adding more variables to the equation. Essentially it makes it “more immeasurable”, as redundant as that sounds.

What if their in the same dimensionality, or have access to the same dimensions?

 

[Sera_EX]

By law of powerscaling, you can be faster within the same level of immeasurable speed. “Immeasurable” just means it cannot be calculated due to excessive or foreign variables that invalidate the speed formula. Irrelevant on the other hand, is essentially equal across the board unless proven otherwise (somehow).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

By law of powerscaling, you can be faster within the same level of immeasurable speed. “Immeasurable” just means it cannot be calculated due to excessive or foreign variables that invalidate the speed formula. Irrelevant on the other hand, is essentially equal across the board unless proven otherwise (somehow).

I see..

My last question for now, can an immeasurable speed being be time stopped, or sealed away with the power of time?

 

[Sera_EX]

Not unless it comes from a higher temporal dimension. Some verses, like DC, have more than one temporal dimension.

 

[Thelastmlg]

I have never seen a match with both immensurables where they weren't considered equal in speed.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Not unless it comes from a higher temporal dimension. Some verses, like DC, have more than one temporal dimension.

The reason i asked that questions is because from these manga scans Mechikabara was sealed away with the power of time despite absorbing all of history [1]

and according to this one it appears he did not have full control over time [2]

Later, after all of history was absorbed by Mechki. They sealed him away with all of history still within him. They had to use time restoration to return the multiverse to normal. [3] (not for sure if its relevant for the immeasurable speed discussion for DBH)

---

Separately from that, when the Shadow/Evil Dragons are brought up. There appears to be an instance where one is using portal creation to go through the ages [4]

These are just some things i found that may, or may not be, anti-feat'ish.

Im not well versed in DBH either.

EDIT: you don't have to go over this if you don't have time.

 

[Sera_EX]

I have never seen a match with both immensurables where they weren't considered equal in speed.

Speed is normally equalized anyway tbh.

 

[Sera_EX]

The reason i asked that questions is because from these manga scans Mechikabara was sealed away with the power of time despite absorbing all of history [1]

and according to this one it appears he did not have full control over time [2]

Later, after all of history was absorbed by Mechki. They sealed him away with all of history still within him. They had to use time restoration to return the multiverse to normal. [3] (not for sure if its relevant for the immeasurable speed discussion for DBH)

---

Separately from that, when the Shadow/Evil Dragons are brought up. There appears to be an instance where one is using portal creation to go through the ages [4]

These are just some things i found that may, or may not be, anti-feat'ish.

Im not well versed in DBH either.

EDIT: you don't have to go over this if you don't have time.

I don’t think that invalidates the speed rating but I’m not sure. It seems to be typical DB nonsense that the writers go for nowadays.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Speed is normally equalized anyway tbh.

Even in those where they aren't, just "both immensurable", it was never mentioned a higher deegre of speed.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Flying to different timelines or through time sounds like leaving the timeline and traveling outside of it and then re-entering at a certain point, or leaving the timeline and flying to another or where you start flying and end up in a different time. Under the new standards that can get you immeasurable (via time travel)

Are there any showings of characters sending attacks across time, or hitting someone with an attack before they launch the same attack, or perhaps dodging an attack that has already struck them? Something showing that this speed is not just for only time traveling purposes?

 

[Elizhaa]

Honestly, I feel like this thread also is best restarted at least as a staff thread as discussed by Antvasima.

I didn't have to read over every post since for this week and next week I am busy. I think DontTalk's explanations make sense. At best, Mechikabura's speed case could be possible but like Sera said either the character doesn’t scale or Mechikabura doesn’t have immeasurable; I am leaning toward the latter.

On the time travel of mentors, I think of the feat as just game mechanics in Dragon Ball. Canon wise most form of time travel takes place with something like a time machine, time scroll, or teleportation/portal creation/dimensional travel like Dominodalek's posts explained.

I found out after research, Time Trapper and Superboy-Prime from powerscaling way more evidence for Immeasurable speed than just being a living timeline, in short; I will be honest their pages should probably get the added evidence added. I think Mechikabura need more solid evidence since Time Trapper and Superboy-Prime's evidence are used as arguments.

Virtually, all the evidence about the demons just seems like Acausality Type 4 which those demons already have from another thread, to me, at best.

I am mostly neutral on the other points but while good points were made of both sides, I think against arguments for Immeasurable speed have more leg to stand.

We kind of already have this rule for the Immeasurable speed:

• Do not attempt to upgrade the speeds of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable. It has been established in our Speed standards that timeless voids are inapplicable for evaluating speed levels, and the cast has consistently been affected by natural flows of time, so they at best have Time Travel or Time Manipulation.

I think those affected characters should probably have time travel from their appropriate technique or time tQravel methodologies added to their profile for accuracy. I am openminded to changing my views, though.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Responding to DT. I know you' didn't read the whole thread but I wanna clarify:

"Devouring time/history is an at least Low 2-C feat, but doesn't automatically make Immeasurable in speed."

History is a 2-A multiverse in Heroes/Xenoverse. So this entire premise for this one reply is completely wrong anyways.

"I guess the idea is that the bits of history are in the body and hence there is a kind of temporal omnipresence, but if we are talking omnipresence then that doesn't scale."

The point was that he absorbed history, meaning he can meaningfully affect a 2-A Structure through his will alone and thus would be immeasurable because that feat would not be achievable without that level of speed. Even then we have plenty of feats of far weaker characters affecting the 2-A multiverse with their attacks (some people don't even have said Time Travel abilities on their own nor Portal Creation)and Dark King Mechi's presence in the game shook the multiverse.

Nobody debunked the Shadow Dragons thing apart from a supposed "debunk scan" that seems to be taken out of context and doesn't tell us anything about them opening portals and people saying "they traveled to the battlefields" when the characters said that they traveled to ages.

MFTL+ speed can't affect infinite 4D Structures in any amount of time.

"Omnipresence is a bit more like a state of being than a regular kind of speed. If you are inside the omnipresent characters area of omnipresence you can't dodge the attacks because they are everywhere. If you are outside of the omnipresent character area of omnipresence, the omnipresence doesn't tell you anything about how fast the character is outside."
This premise is fundamentally wrong so...

"So, I could see that character having a type of omnipresence regarding the devoured parts in history, but not that this would mean anything for the speed of anyone else (or of avatars of the character, in case he uses those)."

Again, this is 100% just wrong.

"Then there is stuff about not affecting the flow of time, which would just be Acausality Type 1.
Being outside spacetime doesn't qualify for Immeasurable, so those quotes fall flat."

There's multiple ways to get Immeasurable/Acausality Type 1. They're not mutually exclusive.

"And lastly, there is the stuff that from the scans just looks like time travel. Haven't really seen anyone reacting and blocking to a change to their past or anything like that in those."

This is a claim and thus needs proving. And it's wrong due to reasons above.

 

[Dominodalek]

Even then we have plenty of feats of far weaker characters affecting the 2-A multiverse with their attacks (some people don't even have said Time Travel abilities on their own nor Portal Creation)and Dark King Mechi's presence in the game shook the multiverse.

Give examples, I've challenged you on this and you still haven't named one.
Not that your Mechikabura feat would qualify as an attack regardless, but when does this happen?

Nobody debunked the Shadow Dragons thing apart from a supposed "debunk scan" that seems to be taken out of context and doesn't tell us anything about them opening portals

You were literally shown an image of Oceanus using a portal.

people saying "they traveled to the battlefields" when the characters said that they traveled to ages.

It's the same thing. They're in a game, remember? The battlefields, which represent the ages, are the game's stages.

MFTL+ speed can't affect infinite 4D Structures in any amount of time.

Again, this wiki says they can.

This is a claim and thus needs proving. And it's wrong due to reasons above.

It's your claim, and you haven't provided any evidence to support it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ngl I agree with Domino, the arguments against Immeasurable speed stand way more, since they follow the standards of the wiki, heck, there are 2-Bs who have just Supersonic speed at best for example lmao.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Ngl I agree with Domino, the arguments against Immeasurable speed stand way more, since they follow the standards of the wiki, heck, there are 2-Bs who have just Supersonic speed at best for example lmao.

No. That's not a good example

Said 2-Bs don't even have Multiversal range.

Anyways,leaving Immeasurable speed aside from now.

Dragon Ball would've gotten at least Infinite speed if the standard wouldn't have changed specifically after said thread to avoid DBH getting the speed rating. I still believe MFTL+ is downplay and Infinite speed is at least fair.

 

[Antvasima]

Going by the current staff evaluations (thank you to everybody who have been helping out btw) it seems to lean towards that the evidence for immeasurable speed is not good enough, but as Elizhaa said, you can restart the discussion in our staff forum if you want more evaluations and less derailment (largely due to myself, so sorry about that).

 

[Antvasima]

Also, @Elizhaa I do not think that the current rationales for immeasurable speed for the Time Trapper version of Superboy Prime seems good at all, and other much slower characters were able to keep up with him fine, so unless your new evidence is much better, the rating should probably be removed.

 

[Antvasima]

Dragon Ball would've gotten at least Infinite speed if the standard wouldn't have changed specifically after said thread to avoid DBH getting the speed rating. I still believe MFTL+ is downplay and Infinite speed is at least fair.

What are you talking about? We did not change our timeless voids standards because of Dragon Ball. The previous standards did not make any sense, and caused our wiki to be drowned in an avalanche of extremely unreliable speed statistics.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, fiction is very inconsistent, so we cannot automatically scale all of our tier 2 characters and above to infinite or immeasurable speeds from their attack potencies.

It would lead to thousands of cases of extremely unreliable exaggerations, so we have to evaluate each statistic separately based on what has actually been shown in this specific area.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

At this point, it's better to restart it as staff only to evaluate every single argument for and against both Immeasurable and Infinite speed

This thread is a mess and members can't understand the arguments (see DT,Elizhaa). I'll inform SSJRyu1.

@Antvasima My bad for that comment, I was blinded by rage.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem, but we all need to try to calm down about disagreements regarding fiction. There are plenty of things to be legitimately upset about in the world right now, particularly the quickly spreading global totalitarianism, including from Silicon Valley and the CCP, but this is not one of them.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, thank you for helping out. I will call for evaluation help after the thread is restarted in the staff forum.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Question. Why don't we just scale some characters to immeasurable for scaling to Mechikabura?

 

[Dominodalek]

Question. Why don't we just scale some characters to immeasurable for scaling to Mechikabura?

Partially for the obvious point that the characters are always shown moving in linear time, and partially because it hasn't been sufficiently argued that Mechikabura should be immeasurable in the first place.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Question. Why don't we just scale some characters to immeasurable for scaling to Mechikabura?

Mechikabura didn't show enough proof of getting Immeasurable speed from just absorbing the Multiverse, you need feats of moving beyond the linear time too

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I’m sorry but nah. Just because characters who scale “look” like they only move in linear time shouldn’t mean they don’t get the rating in the first place. Scaling is always done like that as opposed to someone starting the chain with feats.

That’s like saying you can’t scale people to FTL and above if they aren’t constantly shown at FTL speeds. Or that you can’t scale characters to Planet level when their AP feats don’t destroy planets.

 

[00potato]

I mean how would you animate an immeasurable fight? It makes little sense to judge scaling from that when nobody has a clear idea about what your proposal even looks like.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The og reasons for Immeasurable speed aren't valid due to having twisted context behind them, but the arguments against because "they don't always move at Immeasurable speeds" is not better, heck, we see GER or HA DIO still on finite speeds on-screen despite their Infinite Speed feats

 

[00potato]

I mean you literally can’t animate a series with infinite/immeasurable speed, if you can, try.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ex

I mean how would you animate an immeasurable fight? It makes little sense to judge scaling from that when nobody has a clear idea about what your proposal even looks like.

This.

And if we are reasonable about not all FTL fights being animated as such, we should be much more reasonable for speeds beyond that and are unquantifiable.

 

[Thelastmlg]

The only way "being in linear time" actually matters is if they treat linear time as a problme in the fights, and i don't mean time manipulation, i mean stuff like "the humans will die in 10 seconds" or "running out of time" and stuff, but that only applies if their rating come from being stated to transcend linear time.

But in mechi's case, it is simply fighting the past, present and future and none of them at once, that's clear immensurability.

Also pretty much no verse treats immensurables in the same way as we do, even if they recognize their transcendence over time, they normally use it as excuse for nigh-omniscience, resistance to time hax, acausality or time travel, not "punch faster than instant".

And yet we still give them the rating

 

[Dominodalek]

The og reasons for Immeasurable speed aren't valid due to having twisted context behind them, but the arguments against because "they don't always move at Immeasurable speeds" is not better, heck, we see GER or HA DIO still on finite speeds on-screen despite their Infinite Speed feats

Those characters actually have feats to support their infinite speed though. None of the relevant characters to this thread have been shown to have any feats of immeasurable speed, Mechikabura included.

That was also only a minor point, it's hardly the crux of my counterarguments.