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The former. Speed loses all meaning in being quantifiable above MFTL+, Infinite and Immeasurable arent quantifiable speeds. So lets not make things even more complicated than things here already are (which is by a lot).
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Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse immeasurable speed upgrade
- Thread starter SSJRyu1
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Okay.. well Dragonball heroes has immeasurable speed beings missing punches a lot, and also struggling to keep up with other beings etc.
So either this becomes an anti-feat against them having immeasurable speed , or they are above baseline immeasurable speed.
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Scaling chains exists, so above baseline Immeasurable is a thing
Hasty12345
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I get what you're saying, but at the same time, aren't there examples of outerversal beings doing the same?
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I remember having a Q&A Thread a while back and this was rejected. Immeasurable speed being are equal, and you can't have one faster than the other without some hax involved like precog. but that was also a long time ago.
Hasty12345
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Perhaps they're only immeasurable outside of combat?
However, I see this line of reasoning leading to huge flaws in the rating
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I believe Everything12 pretty much summed it up.
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Well, I am still uneasy with forcing through this revision at such a bad time, when we are supposed to downgrade most characters with immeasurable speed, and revise our standards. As Kukui said, we would likely just have to remove the ratings from them in a few months anyway.
Also, this discussion is very controversial. At the very least, could it be restarted in the staff forum (with SSJRyu1 and other knowledgeable members allowed to respond), as this is our usual practice to avoid chaos and drama?
Also, this discussion is very controversial. At the very least, could it be restarted in the staff forum (with SSJRyu1 and other knowledgeable members allowed to respond), as this is our usual practice to avoid chaos and drama?
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Hasty12345
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I'm new to this wiki, are regular members able to view staff forums but just can't respond, or are they private?
XSOULOFCINDERX
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The former.
Hasty12345
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thank you
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Before I become unable to contribute, my two cents.
"Mechikabura is a literal living multiverse"
Other people have covered this already so I won't go in-depth - Mechikabura is powered by the multiverse, he is not the multiverse itself.
"Demon realm exists outside the flow of time and regular physics"
The Chronoa scan shows the Demon Realm being placed outside of the flow of time (ergo, it's not normally like that) and the other scans are contradicted by the fact that the Demon Realm is confirmed in the same manga to have a time scroll. (Also, Xeno Goku and Vegeta regularly use Super Saiyan 4 outside of the Demon Realm, so the whole idea of the form damaging time appears to have been immediately abandoned). This also says nothing about the realm being outside "regular physics".
"Crack of Time exists outside the flow of linear time"
Surely the fact that Demigra was in there for a linear amount of time confirms that the Crack of Time isn't itself timeless, no?
"Time patrol fighting multiple Demon Gods"
And?
"In Xenoverse 1 and 2 the mentors, who are in Toki-Toki/Conton City, can sense you and freely fly to and from you in alternate timelines and time-frames. Several are villains and have no teleportation, and all are shown flying in and out of the battle, so the arguments of them using time patrol tech or teleportation are moot."
Not so, in-game lore answers this - Skid in Xenoverse 2 explains that they use modified Time Machines to enter those timelines.
"Here we see that because the time breakers (this includes non demons like Bardock) are disconnected/removed from time, the fight you have with them will not effect history. This implies also that you will not effect history either with your presence and are outside the normal flow of time like them, which is the case since you can enter and interact with historical DB events without changing them or making more timelines, to get rid of the time breakers and anomaly's."
Again, being "outside the flow of time" isn't literal - it means they aren't past of that history, because that's how time travel works. You also do affect history, that's why the Parallel Quests exist in the first place.
Also for the record, it's been shown that the Time Breakers/Dark Empire members who can't teleport, use technological means (the Time Breakers have a Time Passport/distorted Time Scroll, and the Dark Empire have spaceships) to time travel.
"The 7 Shadow Dragons fly across time and space to all the ages and missions in the DBH world, and are even about to enter the real world. Beat and his friends can react to them as they pass by as well. Note that Beat had not even obtained SSJG yet, and is still on their level showing even mid tier DBH characters have such feats."
The dragons themselves aren't about to enter the real world, the negative energy they give off was. More importantly though, your only evidence actually showing that is from an opening, and they notoriously don't reflect the actual game.
"The Demons such as Towa and Mechikabura can perceive and track the Dark Dragon Balls as they fly off to alternate timelines, and it is outright stated that Mechikabura's power and youth would be difficult to restore, and take time for the Dark Dragon, implying it is a huge feat for him, unlike casually dispersing the Dragon balls across time. We also know with other instances such as the Shadow Dragons flying through both time and space, the patrollers could fly alongside the Dragon Balls as they dispersed. So the flight capabilities of the Dragon Balls likely scale."
They can't track the Dark Dragon Balls themselves though - we get the most solid proof of this during the game's version of the Dark Broly Saga, where both the Time Patrol and Dark Empire have to spend time searching for the final Dark Dragon Ball. We know the Time Patrol are detecting the people merged with the Dark Dragon Balls (and most of the time it's the Dark Empire they're following) and it's likely the same for the Dark Empire.
"Demigra is stated to "Transcend Time and Space""
Already covered this, it is just due to time travel. He's travelled back into his own past before, he clearly has a linear timeline.
So no, regardless of any wider debates, they shouldn't have immeasurable speed.
"Mechikabura is a literal living multiverse"
Other people have covered this already so I won't go in-depth - Mechikabura is powered by the multiverse, he is not the multiverse itself.
"Demon realm exists outside the flow of time and regular physics"
The Chronoa scan shows the Demon Realm being placed outside of the flow of time (ergo, it's not normally like that) and the other scans are contradicted by the fact that the Demon Realm is confirmed in the same manga to have a time scroll. (Also, Xeno Goku and Vegeta regularly use Super Saiyan 4 outside of the Demon Realm, so the whole idea of the form damaging time appears to have been immediately abandoned). This also says nothing about the realm being outside "regular physics".
"Crack of Time exists outside the flow of linear time"
Surely the fact that Demigra was in there for a linear amount of time confirms that the Crack of Time isn't itself timeless, no?
"Time patrol fighting multiple Demon Gods"
And?
"In Xenoverse 1 and 2 the mentors, who are in Toki-Toki/Conton City, can sense you and freely fly to and from you in alternate timelines and time-frames. Several are villains and have no teleportation, and all are shown flying in and out of the battle, so the arguments of them using time patrol tech or teleportation are moot."
Not so, in-game lore answers this - Skid in Xenoverse 2 explains that they use modified Time Machines to enter those timelines.
"Here we see that because the time breakers (this includes non demons like Bardock) are disconnected/removed from time, the fight you have with them will not effect history. This implies also that you will not effect history either with your presence and are outside the normal flow of time like them, which is the case since you can enter and interact with historical DB events without changing them or making more timelines, to get rid of the time breakers and anomaly's."
Again, being "outside the flow of time" isn't literal - it means they aren't past of that history, because that's how time travel works. You also do affect history, that's why the Parallel Quests exist in the first place.
Also for the record, it's been shown that the Time Breakers/Dark Empire members who can't teleport, use technological means (the Time Breakers have a Time Passport/distorted Time Scroll, and the Dark Empire have spaceships) to time travel.
"The 7 Shadow Dragons fly across time and space to all the ages and missions in the DBH world, and are even about to enter the real world. Beat and his friends can react to them as they pass by as well. Note that Beat had not even obtained SSJG yet, and is still on their level showing even mid tier DBH characters have such feats."
The dragons themselves aren't about to enter the real world, the negative energy they give off was. More importantly though, your only evidence actually showing that is from an opening, and they notoriously don't reflect the actual game.
"The Demons such as Towa and Mechikabura can perceive and track the Dark Dragon Balls as they fly off to alternate timelines, and it is outright stated that Mechikabura's power and youth would be difficult to restore, and take time for the Dark Dragon, implying it is a huge feat for him, unlike casually dispersing the Dragon balls across time. We also know with other instances such as the Shadow Dragons flying through both time and space, the patrollers could fly alongside the Dragon Balls as they dispersed. So the flight capabilities of the Dragon Balls likely scale."
They can't track the Dark Dragon Balls themselves though - we get the most solid proof of this during the game's version of the Dark Broly Saga, where both the Time Patrol and Dark Empire have to spend time searching for the final Dark Dragon Ball. We know the Time Patrol are detecting the people merged with the Dark Dragon Balls (and most of the time it's the Dark Empire they're following) and it's likely the same for the Dark Empire.
"Demigra is stated to "Transcend Time and Space""
Already covered this, it is just due to time travel. He's travelled back into his own past before, he clearly has a linear timeline.
So no, regardless of any wider debates, they shouldn't have immeasurable speed.
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They can view the staff sub-forum, but are only supposed to respond if they get permission or have something very important and insightful to say.
When setting up this forum, I was offered the option to keep the staff sub-forum private between the staff members, without any public view, but I wanted to keep our arguments open, as the alternative seemed inappropriate. We want to have a friendly, trusting, and collaborative community.
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"Mechikabura is powered by the multiverse, he is not the multiverse itself"
False. Mechikabura IS the multiverse and time became part of him, hence why he has HDE. His body is made up of said timelines and space times. That's the reason for Mechikabura being able to regenerate endlessy: Because HE is time. That's how absorption works.
"The dragons themselves aren't about to enter the real world, the negative energy they give off was. More importantly though, your only evidence actually showing that is from an opening, and they notoriously don't reflect the actual game."
the Dragon's energy speed being > their own speed by an infinite amount makes no sense. Also no, in the manga the Shadow Dragons flew to different ages. They don't have any Time Travel device.
they would have and actually did reach Beat's world from the DBH battlefields, with the battlefields being time spaces taking place in the past. Even if you don't follow the "Beat is future, battlefield is past" notion, the Dragons were able to travel to the Realm of the Kai during the Majin Buu Conflict, despite that occurring ages ago.
And Tbh, Everyone's attacks can reach and affect an infinite multiverse and different points in time. Again, it wouldn't make any sense to say that Xeno Goku's attacks are infinitely faster than he himself. That alone is Immeasurable.
Also,again, Zamasu in XV2 was Nigh-Omnipresent across different timelines.
I disagree with them not having Immeasurable speed.
Most "immeasurable" verses don't directly show immeasurable speed feats most of the time.
Also Towa just states that the Dark Dragon Balls will be bothersome to find in the manga, and in the next chapter she already found one so her not being able to find them is contradicted .
The game statement needs evidence otherwise it's as good as nonexistent.
Also considering what happened with DBH on this wiki I will say: I'm not falling for that,sorry
Also, tell me, DominoDalek: If Towa can't track the dragon balls by herself, how did she knew that they flew beyond space and time? That seems a little bit off, don't you think?
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False. Mechikabura IS the multiverse and time became part of him, hence why he has HDE. His body is made up of said timelines and space times. That's the reason for Mechikabura being able to regenerate endlessy: Because HE is time. That's how absorption works.
"The dragons themselves aren't about to enter the real world, the negative energy they give off was. More importantly though, your only evidence actually showing that is from an opening, and they notoriously don't reflect the actual game."
the Dragon's energy speed being > their own speed by an infinite amount makes no sense. Also no, in the manga the Shadow Dragons flew to different ages. They don't have any Time Travel device.
they would have and actually did reach Beat's world from the DBH battlefields, with the battlefields being time spaces taking place in the past. Even if you don't follow the "Beat is future, battlefield is past" notion, the Dragons were able to travel to the Realm of the Kai during the Majin Buu Conflict, despite that occurring ages ago.
And Tbh, Everyone's attacks can reach and affect an infinite multiverse and different points in time. Again, it wouldn't make any sense to say that Xeno Goku's attacks are infinitely faster than he himself. That alone is Immeasurable.
Also,again, Zamasu in XV2 was Nigh-Omnipresent across different timelines.
I disagree with them not having Immeasurable speed.
Most "immeasurable" verses don't directly show immeasurable speed feats most of the time.
Also Towa just states that the Dark Dragon Balls will be bothersome to find in the manga, and in the next chapter she already found one so her not being able to find them is contradicted .
The game statement needs evidence otherwise it's as good as nonexistent.
Also considering what happened with DBH on this wiki I will say: I'm not falling for that,sorry
Also, tell me, DominoDalek: If Towa can't track the dragon balls by herself, how did she knew that they flew beyond space and time? That seems a little bit off, don't you think?
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Hasty12345
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I think you made the right choice. Thank you for the response
Nullflowerblush
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He absorbed it into his black hole not his body.
dbh battlefields are just different timespaces that simulate past events.
Wouldn't that just be Infinite, assuming it isn't instantaneously?
Existing in the Time Nest ≠ Nigh-Omnipresent across different timelines. He was only shown in one isolated part of the Time Nest, so no Nigh-Omnipresence there. That'd be like arguing anime Infinite Zamasu is Nigh-Omnipresent across different timelines because he bled into the present world, which is wrong, because he obviously didn't become partially omnipresent across the present world. The same applies to this.
Dimensional Travel. Also, Mechikabura found the Ball through ESP (or Clairvoyance).
That was Mechikabura. See my earlier point. I'm pretty sure Domino meant "Towa can't just fly beyond space and time to find them" rather than "Towa can't find out where they are", since the latter is most definitely incorrect.
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What I meant was that they don't need to physically follow the Dark Dragon Balls to find where they ended up - their mere presence causes history to change (since the villain they merge with can now curb stomp their opposition) and they give off Dark Ki which both the Dark Empire and the Time Patrol can detect.
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1- Mechi's black hole is inside the body And it is directly connected to it. Mechikabura fits the requirements for being Temporal Omnipresent. Also absorbing time DID increase his stats, speed included hence his speed rating in his TPU key. He also has HE. This would grant the cast immeasurable speed
2-no. The Shadow Dragons were affecting " All the ages" , not only the battlefields. Xenoverse made it pretty clear that a certain age is a different ,separate timeline. The battlefields also are simulations only from the real world's perspective. Again, the Dragons flew into the past via sheer speed.
3- No, that would be immeasurable speed. Your attack covers infinite distance, yes, but it also attacks different points in time across infinite timelines (the past, for example).
Your attacks being able to cross beyond linear Space-Time with 0 indication of Time Travel isn't immeasurable?? They should get this rating just by this thing alone lol
4- Did you ignore what I said? Zamasu IS Nigh-Omnipresence because he DID occupy multiple timelines before getting into the time nest. That's the reason why the Time Scrolls got corruptedcorrupted and then HE showed up in the Time Nest (Corrupted as well)
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1. Yes, it's connected to the body, but that doesn't make it a part of the body.
2. Not true, "Age" is just the term Dragon Ball uses to refer to years, but that's irrelevant since in Heroes they use the term to refer to sagas, ie the Saiyan Saga is an Age. Note that this is specifically for the game's representation of the sagas, so for example "Dragon Ball GT" is a separate Age to "Dragon Ball GT Saga", and both are separate from "Dr. Myu Saga", "Baby Saga", "Super Baby Saga", "Ultimate Android Saga", etc.
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It just proves my point. The Shadow Dragons did travel to different ages and even in the past via speed. They were affecting and reached the Kai realm at the time when Majin Buy showed up which is WAY before GT and the Shadow Dragons
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Yup. It's shown right here. Even if he was completely omnipresent across one timeline, that's still immeasurable.
Hasty12345
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wouldn't being omnipresent be...omnipresence?
not all omnipresent characters have immeasurable speed iirc?
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Is it really speed though, or just time travel/dimensional shenanigans?
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If he's omnipresent across time and space throughout multiple timelines then he perceives the past, present and future at the same time. I literally posted the note from the speed page earlier.
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Beings who are omnipresent across time or all or space-time would actually get Immeasurable under the current standards.
As Zamasu best explained it earlier in the thread.
As Zamasu best explained it earlier in the thread.
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Characters who are Omnipresent across Time get the Omnipresent rating not Immeasurable, you know like Dialga and Arceus Kukui.
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I think so. Shadow Dragons have no time traveling device and the Black Smoke dragon divides himself into 7 (I think) and they flew away. Then it was stated that they were in different ages
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You know you can Time Travel through a Power or Ability, not a device, and still not be Immeasurable.
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They never showed anything like that unlike other characters so there's no way they just "Time traveled"
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Then they should be immeasurable.
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Again, that was before the immeasurable speed standards were changed to what they are now, things change.
Under these current standards, as Zamasu best put it, temporal omnipresent beings would be Immeasurable according to the current requirements.
And I would argue for the pokegods to get it as well, the only reason why I’m not is due to the upcoming revisions that will decide if immeasurable speed even exists on the site at all anymore.
Nullflowerblush
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Is temporal omnipresence even possible with Dragon Ball's cosmology, seeing as how the past and future aren't really the past and the future but just parallel worlds that take place on a different date and branch off from each other? Or would that still count towards it?
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It would still count as that, based from what I can read on other threads. I'm still checking btw
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IF anything, how the DB cosmology works with time not being linear makes it completely impossible for regular time traveling to be done in the verse.
Aka, time traveling in DB that isn’t through a device or ability is traveling between different timelines. Not ordinary time travel.
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Temporal omnipresence is literally better immensurable speed, if the the character isn't completely omnipresent but instead only their mind/reactions, then they should have both immensurable and omnipresence, but if their bodies are temporally omnipresent they have immensurable speed but are only called omnipresents, because why bother?
In fact, temporal omnipresence should make you faster than immensurables because they recat before the attack comes while TO reacts before, during and after all attacks come.
In fact, temporal omnipresence should make you faster than immensurables because they recat before the attack comes while TO reacts before, during and after all attacks come.
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