Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse immeasurable speed upgrade

[Dragomer]

I simply don't see how a potential standards change that hasn't happened yet is relevant to upgrading DBH using the current in-use standard TBH, if everyone agree the current standards say they are immeasurable, then upgrade them and just add them to the list of changes to do IF the standard change.

If we refused upgrade and threads because of possible change to standards, we'd never do anything on this site since stuff change all the time.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I simply don't see how a potential standards change that hasn't happened yet is relevant to upgrading DBH using the current in-use standard TBH, if everyone agree the current standards say they are immeasurable, then upgrade them and just add them to the list of changes to do once IF the standard change.

Because there's no real point in going through the trouble of upgrading them, especially given the amount of characters who would be effected by this change, only to then downgrade them back to where they are now under the event that immeasurable speed in general is removed from the site.

In addition, Ant has already made several requests here to have this thread be remade under more staff-supervised circumstances later on. And if its not already known, im speaking as someone whos more in favor of upgrading them based on this than anything else.

 

[Dragomer]

Because there's no real point in going through the trouble of upgrading them, especially given the amount of characters who would be effected by this change, only to then downgrade them back to where they are now under the event that immeasurable speed in general is removed from the site.

In addition, Ant has already made several requests here to have this thread be remade under more staff-supervised circumstances later on. And if its not already known, im speaking as someone whos more in favor of upgrading them based on this than anything else.

That's only true if the standard change is guaranteed and it's not and if it's guaranteed, why isn't it done yet?

If a standard isn't changed yet, we use it, simple as that, we didn't start pausing all upgrade when that standard change was first brought up, I don't why it should be paused now.

Making this thread staff only right after refusing the upgrade under the reason 'we might be changing standards again' is an awful idea, it's a really bad look. And what's the point of remaking the thread as staff only later if the standard is gonna changed / Is changed? Those two reason to refuse the thread contradict each other.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Alright, looking over the thread it seems most believe that at least Mechi feat qualifies due to being a living multiverse that is one with all history and time, and exists outside of and transcends the flow of time. A few misinterpret the feat claiming he is an "avatar" when fighting the Patrol (never shown or stated), or that he did not fuse with time, even though it literally says "he absorbed time itself" hence why he can regenerate endlessly, as he is time itself now and gained the traits from it, and that all histories are just like wisps of fog inside of him which even kai of time can't manipulate, separate or save anymore, and that have to be sealed away to. So clearly he didn't just get a power boost. He is one with and gained traits from becoming one with all histories.

Some agree that existing outside of, transcending and traveling through time with speed qualifies, while some don't. Under current standards it does as far as I'm aware, although it might change.

Most agree with the new point of IZ also qualifying due to reaching the time nest in the future from another timeline, although not everybody has weighed in on this yet.

Under the current standards and precedents set by other characters, DBH/DBX would qualify for immeasurable, and it would not be wrong to place them at immeasurable for the time being, personally I would give them this stat for the time being, however if the immeasurable speed stats standards will be finalized soon, like within the next couple weeks, I am OK with pausing this topic and resuming it at that point. If its going to be months however, the current standards should just be applied since its not reasonable to lock down an important speed upgrade for several more months.

 

[Dominodalek]

If you're still stuck on the Mechikabura point, I'll dissect it more thoroughly.

It is certainly not true that Mechikabura is an "avatar" - the Mechikabura fought by the Time Patrol during the final battle is the real deal, his physical body, fundamentally him. However, "absorbing time" does not mean he becomes time, just as you don't turn into a pig any time you eat a sausage.

It is certainly never stated anywhere that he has "become" time - the only way his absorption of time is shown to affect Mechikabura directly is his regeneration. Otherwise he's treated no differently from any other 3D character, to the point where it's implied that Demigra could have defeated him on his own if he had full control over his light powers.

Chronoa also does not "confirm" that the histories inside Mechikabura couldn't be saved - in the arcade it's implied that they were as Xeno Trunks gets rid of Mechikabura's Time Power Unleashed form before he's sealed.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That's only true if the standard change is guaranteed and it's not and if it's guaranteed, why isn't it done yet?

This has been, apparently, planned in the making for weeks or so now because of how extremely confusing the standard is currently, so I wouldnt say it isnt guaranteed. And you know why it isnt done yet. A new forum that isnt exactly in the position to do site-wide revisions yet isnt going to be made immediately, especially one thats as controversial as this.

If a standard isn't changed yet, we use it, simple as that, we didn't start pausing all upgrade when that standard change was first brought up, I don't why it should be paused now.

Because this thread is the very first time we even heard of this standard being changed? Before this thread, to my knowledge, all we were going to do was downgrade the verses that dont fit under the current immeasurable speed standards, not outright remove the tier itself. And with common sense, its obviously reasonable to not apply an upgrade for something that may not even be here anymore, only to then downgrade them later.

Not to mention, this thread itself isnt finished yet anyway. Despite the agreements, we still need a lot of staff evaluation before a change like this goes through.

Making this thread staff only right after refusing the upgrade under the reason 'we might be changing standards again' is an awful idea, it's a really bad look. And what's the point of remaking the thread as staff only later if the standard is gonna changed / Is changed? Those two reason to refuse the thread contradict each other.

Dont look at me, im not the one who made the suggestion. Im just telling you what Ant wanted and asked SSJRyu.

 

[Sera_EX]

I can’t be bothered to read all of this, yet from what I can tell there’s a lot of fuss about immeasurable speed....again....for the 800th time.

The amount of backtracking, retreading, and circlejerking is ridiculous, and I am not interested in or willing to help with this community anymore until someone with their head on straight is willing to have a proper discussion about it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hot Take: Almost every single character who is rated as "Immeasaurable" has overwhelming amounts of evidence that they are not just from the simple fact of how fights are depicted and time visibly passes during fights.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera_EX

We are trying to talk about it here:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/immeasurable-speed-characters-updating-second-round.109871/

Anyway, I suppose that the point that we can apply this particular revision if it qualifies for our current standards makes sense. However, we need verifications from knowledgeable staff members first.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @AKM sama @Promestein

What do you think?

 

[Antvasima]

Hot Take: Almost every single character who is rated as "Immeasaurable" has overwhelming amounts of evidence that they are not just from the simple fact of how fights are depicted and time visibly passes during fights.

I agree that most of them should not have the statistic. Your help with the thread that I just linked would be appreciated.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't really have the energy to read through the entire thread today. (was sick yesterday)

From just reading the scans in the opening post I'm not quite convinced.
Devouring time/history is an at least Low 2-C feat, but doesn't automatically make Immeasurable in speed.
I guess the idea is that the bits of history are in the body and hence there is a kind of temporal omnipresence, but if we are talking omnipresence then that doesn't scale. Omnipresence is a bit more like a state of being than a regular kind of speed. If you are inside the omnipresent characters area of omnipresence you can't dodge the attacks because they are everywhere. If you are outside of the omnipresent character area of omnipresence, the omnipresence doesn't tell you anything about how fast the character is outside. So, I could see that character having a type of omnipresence regarding the devoured parts in history, but not that this would mean anything for the speed of anyone else (or of avatars of the character, in case he uses those).

Then there is stuff about not affecting the flow of time, which would just be Acausality Type 1.
Being outside spacetime doesn't qualify for Immeasurable, so those quotes fall flat.
And lastly, there is the stuff that from the scans just looks like time travel. Haven't really seen anyone reacting and blocking to a change to their past or anything like that in those.

So, that's my take.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Shadow Dragons flew via speed into different timelines without any indication of time travel. And they never showed such ability

People who can time travel can perform attacks that cross infinite distance and attack different points in time even WITHOUT using said Time Travel abilities. And these characters can react to said attacks.

Mechikabura is Omnipresent and fair reminded that the void isn't only inside his body. Outside of Mechikabura's body there's also a void which points directly at Mechi BEING the multiverse (and I need to see a serious debunk here aside repeating things that were debunked multiple times and make no logical sense) and people keeping up with him.

IZ being Nigh-Omnipresent across timelines.


due to how the previous threads on this ended up I'm honestly starting to think that this wiki just doesn't want the characters to get the speed rating.

I'm sorry but that's how I view it. And this time no amount of arguments is gonna change my mind.

 

[Dominodalek]

Shadow Dragons flew via speed into different timelines without any indication of time travel. And they never showed such ability

Surely them appearing in the timelines is the indication of time travel? Also this is nothing new in Heroes - before that, the arcade showed Janemba travelling from Fusion Reborn into the Baby Saga, and Gero and Myu travelling from the Super 17 Saga into Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans.

People who can time travel can perform attacks that cross infinite distance and attack different points in time even WITHOUT using said Time Travel abilities. And these characters can react to said attacks.

This just outright doesn't happen, no Dragon Ball character has ever shown such a feat.

Mechikabura is Omnipresent and fair reminded that the void isn't only inside his body. Outside of Mechikabura's body there's also a void which points directly at Mechi BEING the multiverse (and I need to see a serious debunk here aside repeating things that were debunked multiple times and make no logical sense) and people keeping up with him.

First off you didn't debunk it, secondly you haven't shown any actual evidence of his omnipresence, thirdly it's true that the dialogue in the arcade could suggest that the void was external (even then it's only implied - the arcade never actually connects the black hole Mechikabura creates to the one in his chest, it's only the manga that equates the two), but that would just mean that Mechikabura definitely hadn't absorbed the timelines in that continuity, and lastly people keeping up with an supposedly "immeasurable" character doesn't exactly support the argument.

IZ being Nigh-Omnipresent across timelines.

I won't go into this (because in all honesty I don't care) but even if he is, and even if that gives him immeasurable speed... that doesn't change anything, since Infinite Zamasu doesn't have a profile, and nobody scales to him.

due to how the previous threads on this ended up I'm honestly starting to think that this wiki just doesn't want the characters to get the speed rating.

I'm sorry but that's how I view it.

I couldn't care less what rating the characters get, only that it's accurate.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Small question.

Where's the proof that Shadow Dragons can time travel via speed alone? I need S C A N S for that, with the right context.

Because this is continuing without an end, so either give solid proof about the Dragons being that fast (and not just words), or this thread is moot.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Again, I’m just going to reiterate a point I made before:

IF anything, how the DB cosmology works with time not being linear makes it completely impossible for regular time traveling to be done in the verse.

Aka, time traveling in DB that isn’t through a device or ability is traveling between different timelines. Not ordinary time travel.

Read what I quoted. Because of time not working how it does for us, it’s impossible for real time travel to happen in DB.

Aka, traveling from the past to the future or vice versa would have to be crossing timelines, not ordinary time travel.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

This just outright doesn't happen, no Dragon Ball character has ever shown such a feat.

Are you literally saying that their attacks are infinitely faster than their own speed? Don't you see the flaw here?


The only way the Shadow Dragons would have traveled into other timelines is via speed. Sorry, that's just how it is.
They never showed other abilities

Also Mechikabura in the game doesn't even create the black hole. It comes from a wish to Dark Shenron and Mechi just absorb it. You also didn't present evidence, so don't use such arguments.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Small question.

Where's the proof that Shadow Dragons can time travel via speed alone? I need S C A N S for that, with the right context.

Because this is continuing without an end, so either give solid proof about the Dragons being that fast (and not just words), or this thread is moot.

Still waiting because this claim about Shadow Dragons being able to time travel with sheer speed wasn't backed from nothing.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

multiverse theory cosmology.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Still waiting because this claim about Shadow Dragons being able to time travel with sheer speed wasn't backed from nothing.

Here

 

[Sera_EX]

My primary issue with this is the execution through scaling. Granted I didn’t read the thread because I’m very tired and can’t go through it all (dealing with a sick child at home). Anyway, Mechi straight up gets a power boost/transformation. That’s fine. But why would Vegito and them scale if they are the same power level they’ve always been? All transformations and kaioken included prior to Mechi getting any sort of power boost. I don’t even know the story, but IIRC Trunks uses SSG to defeat him, I think (I don’t keep up with heroes because there’s too much nonsense going on).

From what I can gather it’s simply PIS (and thus non-scalable) if Mechi becomes this temporal god with immeasurable speed yet the others (with no power boost of their own) can keep up with him.

Either they don’t scale or Mechi doesn’t have immeasurable. That’s the gist I get with the limited information I have. If I’m totally off please let me know, otherwise that doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Idk, I'm pretty neutral there

 

[Dominodalek]

Are you literally saying that their attacks are infinitely faster than their own speed? Don't you see the flaw here?

No, because their speed isn't infinite either. All relevant characters are MFTL+.

Also Mechikabura in the game doesn't even create the black hole. It comes from a wish to Dark Shenron and Mechi just absorb it. You also didn't present evidence, so don't use such arguments.

Yet earlier you said:

Outside of Mechikabura's body there's also a void

The void in question is the black hole, so either he absorbed it and it's in his body, or he didn't absorb it and thus the argument is null. Both can't be true. (Evidence: https://docs.google.com/document/d/...oD-VaJSfIJpQUuWaI/edit#heading=h.2uiwq0o1pk5y for statements about the black hole)

Here

Nothing to do with speed, that link doesn't even show the dragons and the analysis is tenuous at best.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also I've another question.

Are we sure that just absorbing the Multiverse would grant Immeasurable speed? Because with this logic, anyone who can merge/absorb more timelines like Darkrai or IDW Shockwave would have Immeasurable speed.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

My primary issue with this is the execution through scaling. Granted I didn’t read the thread because I’m very tired and can’t go through it all (dealing with a sick child at home). Anyway, Mechi straight up gets a power boost/transformation. That’s fine. But why would Vegito and them scale if they are the same power level they’ve always been? All transformations and kaioken included prior to Mechi getting any sort of power boost. I don’t even know the story, but IIRC Trunks uses SSG to defeat him, I think (I don’t keep up with heroes because there’s too much nonsense going on).

From what I can gather it’s simply PIS (and thus non-scalable) if Mechi becomes this temporal god with immeasurable speed yet the others (with no power boost of their own) can keep up with him.

It’s called backwards scaling. A power up doesn’t always mean a speed increase in DB.

Either they don’t scale or Mechi doesn’t have immeasurable. That’s the gist I get with the limited information I have. If I’m totally off please let me know, otherwise that doesn’t make sense to me.

There’s also infinite Zamasu, who’s completely omnipresent across the time and space of multiple timelines.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Domino

MFTL+ characters can't make attacks that covers infinite distance across infinite space-times.

Also you misunderstood the void thong pretty badly;

"The void in question is the black hole, so either he absorbed it and it's in his body, or he didn't absorb it and thus the argument is null. Both can't be true."
uhhh what? There's two different Voids.
The Void within the Black Hole and the thing Mechi absorbed, and the emptiness left behind outside of him.

"Nothing to do with speed, that link doesn't even show the dragons and the analysis is tenuous at best."
"All of them are at the Mercy of the Seven Evil Dragons"
The ****?

Nothing to do with speed???
Why does this dude think they're "all at the mercy of the Seven Evil Dragons"??

 

[Dominodalek]

Donmino

MFTL+ characters can't maQke attacks that covers infinite distance across infinite space-times.

According to this wiki, they can.

(Not that they ever actually have in the series.)

 

[Thelastmlg]

Not all 2-A are infinite or immensurable, that alone debunks it.

Hell even higher dimensional beings can still finite levels of speed, despite their range being infinitly greater than 2-A

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

According to this wiki, they can.

(Not that they ever actually have in the series.)

Doesn't mean anything and Xeno Goku was prohibited to use SSJ4 due to it threatening the multiverse so your last claim is wrong.

About the dragons:

Items that time travel or abilities are always very explicitly noted (Specific Portal Abilities, Time Scrolls, Time Rings, Time Machines, etc.)

If there's nothing of note, then we can't assume they used an ability to Time Travel.


about Mechi:

Mechi already has this on his profile

"Higher-Dimensional Existence (absorbed/fused with a multitudinous amount of timespaces and his physical body is made up of and contains many timelines)"

So we already accepted that he fused TimeSpaces into his body

Again, even outside Mechi's body there's a void because the multiverse is now part of Mechi's physiology. Which means he is the multiverse. That's it

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Sera

Btw I’m very sorry to hear about our your IRL concerns, I’m hoping everything gets better and wishing your child a speedy recovery

 

[Dominodalek]

"The void in question is the black hole, so either he absorbed it and it's in his body, or he didn't absorb it and thus the argument is null. Both can't be true."
uhhh what? There's two different Voids.
The Void within the Black Hole and the thing Mechi absorbed, and the emptiness left behind outside of him.

Sorry, you weren't clear, I thought you were referring to the void that he sucked everything into. Ignore my comment then.

Nothing to do with speed???
Why does this dude think they're "all at the mercy of the Seven Evil Dragons"??

Because the Shadow Dragons are still travelling to different times and destabilizing them (with their energy, which is well-established to do such things), you just haven't shown that they're travelling there through speed alone.

Doesn't mean anything and Xeno Goku was prohibited to use SSJ4 due to it threatening the multiverse so your last claim is wrong.

That has been repeatedly contradicted ever since, it's an incredibly vague feat to begin with (Chronoa never mentions what would be threatened by transforming) and it's not even an attack.

About the dragons:

Items that time travel or abilities are always very explicitly noted (Specific Portal Abilities, Time Scrolls, Time Rings, Time Machines, etc.)

If there's nothing of note, then we can't assume they used an ability to Time Travel.

I gave other examples where that wasn't the case. If you require explicit confirmation of every little detail, you're backing the wrong series.

about Mechi:

Mechi already has this on his profile

"Higher-Dimensional Existence (absorbed/fused with a multitudinous amount of timespaces and his physical body is made up of and contains many timelines)"

So we already accepted that he fused TimeSpaces into his body

Again, even outside Mechi's body there's a void because the multiverse is now part of Mechi's physiology. Which means he is the multiverse. That's it

No, there's a void because the multiverse was absorbed into Mechikabura's black hole. Nothing to do with Mechikabura's physiology.
(Also I'm pretty sure I argued against that to begin with, and I certainly disagree with it now, so thanks for bringing it up.)

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I just want to say that the Evil Dragons in Victory Mission have some inconsistencies here.

One of the evil dragons escaped, but you visibly see her later opening a portal to a different "Age"

Edit: Also these evil dragons were getting blitzed and they can visibly see themselves getting bltized.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I just want to say that the Evil Dragons in Victory Mission have some inconsistencies here.

One of the evil dragons escaped, but you visibly see her later opening a portal to a different "Age"

Edit: Also these evil dragons were getting blitzed and they can visibly see themselves getting bltized.

Where's this supposed scan? Because there 's no such thing in this scan

Them getting blitzed is a feat for the others not an anti feat for them.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

might i ask, where did you find such high quality scans?
Also, they went to different battlefields.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

might i ask, where did you find such high quality scans?
Also, they went to different battlefields.

the raw scan i got it from the official website http://vjump.shueisha.co.jp/push/dbh/mission21.html

The other one in english is a blocked site lol

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Also, despite supposedly being superior to the Shadow Dragons in terms of speed, the Heroes still require Dimensional Travel devices to get around, which is yet another anti-feat.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

A problem I found with mechi is.. If hes immeasurable, and he is all of time (Past, present and future), and hes supposed to be acausal and resistant to time manipulation. Why is the power of time needed to seal him? Then the next scan after implies that He never had full control over Time.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Also, despite supposedly being superior to the Shadow Dragons in terms of speed, the Heroes still require Dimensional Travel devices to get around, which is yet another anti-feat.

They need it to get from the real world into the DBH world.

Not an argument since the Real World works on completely different basis but that would get us our of topic.

A problem I found with mechi is.. If hes immeasurable, and he is all of time, and hes supposed ot be acausal and resistant to time manipulation. Why is the power of time needed to seal him? Then the next scan after implies that He never had full control over Time.

They needed a mix of powers becauss he was too strong.

 

[Sera_EX]

“Backwards scaling” doesn’t answer my question. No one scales to IZ’s speed either so why was he brought up? I’m honestly confused here. I hope this isn’t coming off as confrontational.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I found another problem with Mechi-whatever his name is lol

Mechi-whatever, absorbed all of history. There was supposed to be nothing left, correct? They sealed Mechi away in the form where he absorbed everything. meaning everything should still be inside of him, right?

How the heck is Time Restoration on the multiverse working?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I found another problem with Mechi-whatever his name is lol

Mechi-whatever, absorbed all of history. There was supposed to be nothing left, correct? They sealed Mechi away in the form where he absorbed everything. meaning everything should still be inside of him, right?

How the heck is Time Restoration on the multiverse working?

No. They power nulled him and he reverted back to his old form

Also TokiToki can create time from nothing so that isn't really impressive.

These "problems" Don't exist. Sorry