Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions

[Dagoth_OwO]

And? Bardock is still a full blooded saiyan so his potential is just as great as goku, Goku isn't a ******* chosen one here where he's destined to get every form ever. Yeah, Vegeta only stopped at SSJ2 and wasn't aware there's higher forms of super saiyans that exists unlike goku who found a higher level. You do realize this doesn't debunk my point that any full blooded saiyan is capable of reaching the first 4 forms.

Gongratulations, you just debunked your own argument. Bardock is not aware of any transformations beyond the regular Super Saiyan, so going by your own Vegeta argument of "Vegeta stopped at SS2 cause he didn't know there were more", Bardock couldn't have reached SS4. How's Bardock gonna magically find out about SS2, 3 and 4.

And I never claimed that Goku was a "chosen one". What I said was that Goku reaching the form, doesn't mean that Bardock can reach the form too. When exactly did Bardock perform the same training in the afterlife that allowed Goku to achieve SS3.

You do realize that dark shenron only being capable of giving Bardock SSJ3 shoots your argument in the foot that he fate haxed him? Because if dark shenron is only able to grant him SSJ3, then he cannot be able to do SSJ4 for him, meaning it's not consistent whatsoever with his power, which means this being an alternate bardock who got SSJ4 being thrown into the timeline makes more sense than Dark Shenron warping fate cause again, he couldn't give him SSJ4 there, and at best gave him 3, so DS didn't have anything to do with Bardock's form.

You really don't get it, do you? Bardock didn't ask to gain SS4, he asked for his power to be drawn out to its maximum limits, which as shown, is SS3. Dark Shenron not granting Bardock SS4 only proves that SS4 is beyond Bardock's limits of reach. Not to mention the fact that we're not talking about his wish granting abilities here, were talking about his Dark Ki and the spacetime divisions it caused. And again, you refuse to even acknowledge Chronoa's statement which is a level of denial both hilarious and sad at this point. Dark Shenron's Dark Ki warped timelines which allowed Bardock to become a SS4. Chronoa said that SS4 Bardock is a warrior who can't originally exist. Your denial will never change Chronoa's statement no matter how you want to twist or ignore it

No the plot holes already exist if we're assuming Sealas is always more powerful enough to take out Chronoa and apparently have access to the time nest at any point in time.

No plot holes exist since Sealas doesn't have the power to affect the records of the scrolls. He can't go through with his plans with his own power, and thus, beating up Chronoa isn't gonna help anything. He multiple times states that he doesn't have the power to fulfill his goals and needs Ahms' power to fulfill it. Zero plotholes required. The only plotholes are the ones you're making up with your chain reaction claim, which is false.

I'm literally talking about the tokipedia here, and you literally have a scan here that says it won't be recorded in the book, this all does not prove information hax is a thing for the time scrolls, or how affecting the scrolls has concept and info hax since the arguments for both do not make any sense whatsoever and relies on a lot of assumptions.

And with this, you've officially proven that you didn't even bother to read my comment....again. I very clearly explained before that the 6th image in question is not referring to the Tokipedia, but Chronoa's Time Scrolls, as confirmed by both Chronoa and Fu, which is why it's ok to change history in the Time Rifts, when it's not ok to do it with the Time Scrolls in the Time Vault. The sole purpose of the Tokipedia is to record these events/timelines in it instead of Chronoa's Time Scrolls, since her Time Scrolls don't record these Time Rifts. The Tokipedia robot even called the Tokipedia, in the very same scan you linked, "The Book of Beginning and End: Time Rift Edition". And in the very same scan you've linked, there are two images which outright state that the Tokipedia did record the events of the Time Rifts, so good job on nitpicking one statement while completely ignoring the rest of the scans and context. Either you didn't read anything that I wrote in the past, or you're just in utter denial. Either way it's not a good look. If you're not going to even properly read all the scans and context, don't even bother to reply.

 

[Theglassman12]

Not being aware of any forms doesn't mean they can't get to those forms, Goten wasn't even aware of super saiyan and he transformed by complete accident in front of his mother. What ******* argument is this?

No it very clearly means Dark Shenron couldn't get to SSJ4 at all, despite being a wish granting dragon, he couldn't reach SSJ4 for the guy? This shoots Bardock's SSJ4 being a result of Shenron's power even more than before. If he cannot give it to him why are we assuming Shenron gave it to him now despite his reality warping powers being incapable of doing it? This doesn't prove fate hax at all, it just debunks it even further. Chronoa's statement makes even less sense now that DS somehow can't give the form to Bardock at all.

Prove he's referring to the scrolls and not the warriors, cause the scans heavily imply he needed more power to beat the time patrol as opposed to the scrolls.

You literally have them say it won't be recorded, which btw, that alone is NOT enough for info hax. You keep saying that it's enough but you don't understand that you literally need to control actual information itself, a computer having this shit doesn't grant info hax, unless you wanna tell me that every human being on the planet hax info hax because we have technology with info inside of our devices.

 

[Ss3micah]

Im gonna breifly point out some inaccurate claims here

No it very clearly means Dark Shenron couldn't get to SSJ4 at all, despite being a wish granting dragon, he couldn't reach SSJ4 for the guy? This shoots Bardock's SSJ4 being a result of Shenron's power even more than before.

Wrong. Again Bardock never asked for Super Saiyan 4 nor did Dark Shenron stated he was gonna give him Super Saiyan 4. Bardock asked for the absolute limit of his potential to be drawn out and it was. His potential however never included Super Saiyan 4. If i am wrong please point out where in the scan did Bardock asked for SS4.

Bardock not getting SS4 after the Wish is no fault on DS side. All DS did was what he was asked to do. It means that even with all his potential drawn out, SS4 is impossible for Bardock ON HIS OWN MERITS WITH HIS OWN POTENTIAL. The Narrative your pushing is the equivalent of saying if 18 Year Old Goku made the Wish to DS to have the Absolute Limit of his potential drawn out then he would be able to go SS4. He wouldnt be able to because atp Goku would have NO potential for SS4 within him for DS to draw out. Remember DS can only draw out the potential of its there to begin with and in Bardocks case it simply wasnt. Bardock asked for the absolute limit of his potential to be drawn out NOT FOR SS4 and Fact he doesnt have it simply means the potential for it Does Not exists within Bardock

Also it does not shoot that point in the foot because the Bardock that gained SS4 was a direct result of DS actively warping and changing History to make that possibility real as Chronoa blatantly states it was impossible beforehand for Bardock to have SS4 any other way. There is a HUGE difference between asking DS to bring own the potential within you but that potential within yourself not including SS4 and DS screwing with History to make you gain SS4

If he cannot give it to him why are we assuming Shenron gave it to him now despite his reality warping powers being incapable of doing it? This doesn't prove fate hax at all, it just debunks it even further. Chronoa's statement makes even less sense now that DS somehow can't give the form to Bardock at all.

Again. BARDOCK NEVER ASKED for SS4 nor was DS trying to give it to him. DS drew out the Absolute Limit of Bardock's Potential (Bardocks PERSONAL potential) but THAT potential never included SS4. Every Saiyan is different with each of them having different levels of Potential to Obtain different powers and Forms. I mean as of DBS Super Hero for God's Sake, Gohan is confirmed to have one of the highest Potentials of any Saiyan yet still cant go Super Saiyan 3. Why? Not because of Lack of Training or Power but Simply because he lacks the potential for that transformation. Vegeta got the same training from Whis Goku did and still cant use UI because he lacks the potential to do so. Goku cant use UE because he lacks the potential to do so. Pan (in GT) as of the Super 17 Saga, casually overpowered Dr. Gero who even at a lowball would stilI scale above the likes of Yadrat SS1 Goku and SS1 Future Trunks and yet still lacks the potential to become a Super Saiyan while Goten who was even younger, had very little combat exp, didnt know how to fly and did basic levels of training against someone with a fodder power level could go Super Saiyan. It all comes down to if you have the potential to do so or not. Bardock never asked for SS4, he asked for the absolute limit of HIS POTENTIAL to be drawn out and that is exactly what happened. Right now you are Blaming DS for Bardock being unable to turn SS4 rather than the obvious fact that Bardock simply lacks the potential to ever gain and use SS4 one his own merits

But go ahead
Prove me wrong by Highlighting the statement where DS said ANYTHING attributed to giving bardock SS4

The only reason that Random Bardock gained SS4 wad because of DS messing with History to make it happen. Hence Chronoa's statement of it being an impossibility

And look
Your Debunk literally relies on Disregarding Chronoa's statememt to further your own agenda which is an assumption at best given the context and statements

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Not being aware of any forms doesn't mean they can't get to those forms, Goten wasn't even aware of super saiyan and he transformed by complete accident in front of his mother. What ******* argument is this?

You're the one who came up with that argument, so you got only yourself to blame. And again, comparing Bardock to Goten is a false comparison as he gained SS1 easier than normal, due to being a hybrid as confirmed in the Daizenshuu.

Edit: And infact, even Toriyama himself stated that not anyone can become a Super Saiyan with training and anger. The right amount of S-Cells needs to be achieved aswell, which is something that most Saiyans don't have a great quantity of. Plus, a high enough battle power is required too. So even Toriyama disagrees with this "every saiyan has the potential to become a Super Saiyan" argument lmao.

No it very clearly means Dark Shenron couldn't get to SSJ4 at all, despite being a wish granting dragon, he couldn't reach SSJ4 for the guy? This shoots Bardock's SSJ4 being a result of Shenron's power even more than before. If he cannot give it to him why are we assuming Shenron gave it to him now despite his reality warping powers being incapable of doing it? This doesn't prove fate hax at all, it just debunks it even further. Chronoa's statement makes even less sense now that DS somehow can't give the form to Bardock at all.

Nope. It means that Bardock's potential only reaches SS3. You asked for proof for Bardock not being capable of reaching these forms and I gave it you, as Bardock's max potential is SS3. And again, SS4 Bardock is the result of Dark Shenron's spacetime divisions, unlike this SS3 Bardock, meaning that there is a completely different method of how these two gained their transformations. You don't seem to understand the difference between wish granting and general timeline warping with Dark Ki. Wish granting=/=changing history. @Ss3micah only debunked your arguments even further. But keep ignoring Chronoa's statement further, won't ya.

Prove he's referring to the scrolls and not the warriors, cause the scans heavily imply he needed more power to beat the time patrol as opposed to the scrolls.

The fact that he states multiple times that he needed Ahms' power to burn the scrolls and reshape reality. He never stated that he needed the power to defeat the Time Patrol and he objectively defeated them once already. Where in these scans is the Time Patrol even brought up lol. His plan is to burn the scrolls and reshape reality for which he created Ahms. He needs to control Ahms' power to achieve this. He literally states that he needs more power to create his new world lmao

You literally have them say it won't be recorded, which btw, that alone is NOT enough for info hax. You keep saying that it's enough but you don't understand that you literally need to control actual information itself, a computer having this shit doesn't grant info hax, unless you wanna tell me that every human being on the planet hax info hax because we have technology with info inside of our devices.

I know you're ignoring what I said on purpose, but let me explain it to you again very slowly so that there won't be any mistakes.

This statement is not referring to the Tokipedia, but the Time Scrolls in the Time Vault, since these Time Rifts and their history are separate from the Time Scrolls of the Time Vault, and thus, won't be recorded in them. Therefore, the Tokipedia, an accurate replica of a Time Scroll, created by Fu, records these Time Rift events instead, as stated below:

"You can also use Tokipedia to view records for both branching and alternate routes. See what partners you used, routes you've completed, and more"

"I'll be sure to record anything I might forget in Tokipedia"

"What's Tokipedia, you ask? Basically it's the Book of Beginning and End: Time Rift Edition! Mr. Fu came up with it."

And as a bonus, here we have a blatant scan of the Tokipedia having actually recorded all the branching and alternate routes, even after time was reset multiple times

The sole purpose of the Tokipedia is to record the events of the Time Rifts, since they're not recorded in the Time Scrolls of the Time Vault, due to the Time Rifts being separated. It's not that hard to comprehend. I know you're going to ignore these again since you're blatantly stonewalling to justify your excuse of "chain reaction", despite the records of Tokipedia clearly being unaffected by time EE and Tokipedia actually recording all the events in the Time Rifts, but atleast everyone can see your true motives.

 

[Greenshifter]

that alone is NOT enough for info hax. You keep saying that it's enough but you don't understand that you literally need to control actual information itself, a computer having this shit doesn't grant info hax, unless you wanna tell me that every human being on the planet hax info hax because we have technology with info inside of our devices.

If you had information on a computer about reality and altered that information which then altered reality as a result, pretty sure that's textbook type 2 information manipulation.

still not fate hax here

Might be causality or probability manipulation yeah.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Greenshifter so by your own logic any human being with computers with data that can create anything has information hax, that's essentially the argument here, I don't think I need to spell it out how this is stupid beyond reasoning.

@Ss3micah This is a reality warping dragon who apparently cannot give Bardock SSJ4 despite that being shown as of now to be the saiyan's maximum limit before reaching into forms not related to their species. You cannot tell me that this same dragon who couldn't even get him past SSJ3 can all of a sudden give him SSJ4 by complete random in this other scene, these two events contradict each other if you're going to tell me that DS affected Bardock to the point of giving him SSJ4 despite his reality warping powers not being capable of doing that? You have to address why he can suddenly do this here and not the same thing when Bardock actively wanted to be stronger but didn't get this form. You mean the direct result of space time divisions happening leading to alternate versions of the characters to exist in the main timeline?

What logic is this? You're telling me Gohan has the most potential out of the saiyans but also say he lacks the potential? You cannot say both of these in the same sentence without shooting your argument in the foot here, it contradicts your claim. Also UI and UE are not forms related to the saiyan race dude, they're god abilities, they're not comparable in this situation here. You mean the fact that he pushed Bardock to the limits but couldn't just give him SSJ4 despite being a saiyan form he could get?

@Dagoth_OwO No the Goten Bardock thing is completely relevant to the topic since you keep claiming he can't transform into higher forms cause he's not aware, Goten's not aware of SSJ but transformed easily on his own without even realizing, so this whole "they can't reach the forms cause they don't know about it" argument falls flat.

Your proof is literally DS not being able to give him SSJ4 despite the wish, this same Dragon you guys are claiming can give him SSJ4 at random, warping timelines has nothing to do with fate though, those are two completely separate abilities which has no connection with one another, the burden of proof is on you that DS is specifically just warping fate itself as opposed to this either being another power boost at random or just a result of bringing another version of a character in the main timeline.

Where did it say he needed Ahm's power for the scrolls? He just said he needed more power, and refers to the AI as a personal executioner, and he's fighting people who opposes his goals, nothing about the context of the scans imply it's specifically due to the scrolls, and especially on the fact the scrolls are concept or information since nothing the blog provided gives anything about the scrolls being literal concepts and information. Again, can you give me examples on concepts and info being actual requirements to affect a single scroll?

Yeah, a computer recording info, what part of this is remotely information hax for time scrolls? Nothing about this is remotely information hax, instead it's just shit that a computer has, info. Where does this remotely correlate to the scrolls having literal info that needs to be manipulated to destroy the scrolls? Except you haven't disproven the time scrolls being destroyed resulting in entire timelines being destroyed as a chain reaction though, your scan on Agio "that was their fate" when he burned time scrolls and Sealas wanting to kill everyone by burning the time scrolls heavily imply this. Before you try and pull the appeal to motive fallacy on me, how about you actually refute my points on the scrolls being destroyed resulting in the timelines being destroyed? Because I've yet to see any counter arguments to this beyond "this could've happened if that was the case".

 

[AguilaR202]

@Greenshifter so by your own logic any human being with computers with data that can create anything has information hax, that's essentially the argument here, I don't think I need to spell it out how this is stupid beyond reasoning.

Who is to say that handling information on a real PC can’t be considered a form of information manipulation just on a limited real life 2-D scale?

Someone using a proverbial computer that could contain and simulate all of space-time would most certainly be considered to have information manipulation through its use.

The only meaningful difference would be the scale.

 

[Vietthai96]

so by your own logic any human being with computers with data that can create anything has information hax, that's essentially the argument here, I don't think I need to spell it out how this is stupid beyond reasoning.

1. Why human analogy, we human don't have profile to actually measure, and we handling data/information via equipments actually. On the other hand these DB guys manipulating data/informations via superpower abilities.
2. These guys with data/information capable of creating actual timeline/space-time at 4D scale and they freely altering events happening in it. Which i will go into detail when i have time at weekend, currently very busy due to the new semester in my country
3. Calling other arguments stupid reasoning is not counter-argument, because it is your personal feeling on matter

Anyway i'm at working place so i will reply this argument first

 

[Theglassman12]

@AguilaR202 except for the fact that this is only referring to the tokipedia itself, and not the scrolls itself having the information being manipulated, which doesn’t help the info hax being here.

@Vietthai96 us not having profiles doesn’t mean we can’t use us for comparisons on these types of examples.

Which is in the tokipedia, a computer, not their natural abilities which extends to the scrolls itself when they have a statement of the stuff not being recorded in the actual scrolls itself so none of this is remotely helping info hax being in the scrolls.

That wasn’t even my counter argument, the stuff I said prior to the comment was my counter argument.

 

[Ss3micah]

Sigh....
Let me try this again since your seemingly rigid when it comes to obvious interpretation

@Ss3micah This is a reality warping dragon who apparently cannot give Bardock SSJ4 despite that being shown as of now to be the saiyan's maximum limit before reaching into forms not related to their species. You cannot tell me that this same dragon who couldn't even get him past SSJ3 can all of a sudden give him SSJ4 by complete random in this other scene, these two events contradict each other if you're going to tell me that DS affected Bardock to the point of giving him SSJ4 despite his reality warping powers not being capable of doing that? You have to address why he can suddenly do this here and not the same thing when Bardock actively wanted to be stronger but didn't get this form. You mean the direct result of space time divisions happening leading to alternate versions of the characters to exist in the main timeline?

You see THIS right here, this whole "reality warping dragon who apparently cannot give Bardock SSJ4" and the whole "being shown as of now to be the saiyan's maximum limit before reaching into forms not related to their species". THAT right there is the SOURCE of all your misunderstandings. Let me say this again, DARK SHENRON was ASKED by Bardock to draw out his full potential NOT give him super saiyan 4. Maybe you didn't know this but Shenrons typically grant the wishes asked of them rather than Shenron's granting you something you DID NOT asked for but they think you could need more.

Your first mistake here is that your pushing this whole narrative (which I shall henceforth refer to as the Glassman Narrative) that "OOOHHH, this Big Bad Dragon with all his Multiversal Reality powers couldn't give me Super Saiyan 4". It's at this point I have to wonder if you read the scan or simply chose to interpret it a way that disregards all context. Bardock DID NOT ask Dark Shenron to make him a Super Saiyan 4, nor did he asked him how to turn into one. He simply asked DS to draw out his full potential and as a Shenron, DS did what he was requested. If the scan had shown Bardock asking for SS4 and then DS said "This wish cannot be granted" then you would have a point but right now you don't because the Scan shows Bardock asking for his Full Potential to be drawn out. Bardock not having SS4 IS NOT because DS failed, it is simply because SS4 is not within Bardock's potential to obtain. Plain and simple as that. Stop Blaming the Poor Dragon and Pushing the Glassman Narrative that "OHHH DS couldn't give Bardock SS4". It's not that he couldn't, he ssimply didn't because he was not asked to do so. Your Glassman Narrative pushes this Idea that DS should have granted a Wish he was not asked to grant which completely goes against the Concepts against the Shenron's as a whole.

Your second misunderstanding and mistake comes from this idea that "OOOHHHH, Super Saiyan 4 is the final stage of the Saiyan Transformation and it is the pinnacle of Saiyan Evolution/Potential, thus any saiyan that reaches their maximum potential must be able to get SS4" Your Glassman narrative is pushing this idea that because it's a saiyan transformation then every saiyan out there has the capabilities to become one with enough power and training. Now while I can get why you would think that.... Its not entirely true. Obtaining transformations isn't simply about power and training but also having the POTENTIAL within ones-self for that Transformation. Need an example? I'll be happy to show you one now.

Caulifla and Cabba. Cabba obtained Super Saiyan WAY before Caulifla did and AFTER gaining Super Saiyan Caulifla obtained SS2 not long after. Caulifla who had just turn into Super Saiyan, got Super Saiyan 2 before Cabba despite Cabba having Super Saiyan WAY longer than Caulifla. Why? Simple because Caulifla had the potential to do so while Cabba simply did not AND LET'S NOT FORGET that Caulifla and Cabba were around the same level of strength at this time and Caulifla is significantly less trained than Cabba.
Now let's run this Back to Bardock. Bardock is MASSIVELY stronger and has trained far harder and longer than Cabba and Caulifla and is aware of the Saiyan Transformations having seen them first hand. So why is it that despite all of that, Bardock COULD NOT gain SS2 on his own? Why is it that weaker saiyans like Caulifla and Cabba who weren't even Super Saiyan for more than a year could get Super Saiyan 2 but Bardock with all his years being a Super Saiyan and training and vastly superior strength couldn't? Simple answer, he lacked the potential to do so. Power and Training is not some ticket that entitles you to gain saiyan transformations. You could be as Strong as Hercules and a Seasoned Veteran at combat and still gain little or nothing. Just Ask Turles (Heroes). That Turles was so powerful, he could take on SGG Goku (Heroes) IN HIS BASE FORM and despite that level of power, he still can't become a REGULAR super saiyan. A 7 Year Old Goten can become a Super Saiyan by accident but a Warrior as Seasoned as Turles who can clap hands and sing Kumbaya with God Goku COULD NOT. Why? Not for lack of power, training or knowing but simply because of the lack of potential to do so.
And again we can look at the Pan example. She straight up casually manhandled Dr Gero (in GT) and that Gero is undoubetely stronger than Post-Namek SS1 Goku and Future Trunks and she is MORE than aware of the transformations. SO WHY is it that she can't become a Super Saiyan? She lacks the potential to do so.

The Glassman narrative your pushing here is that Super Saiyan 4 is the pinnacle of Saiyan Transformation and that any Saiyan that reaches their maximum potential should obtain SS4. That is entirely YOUR PERSONAL HEADCANNON. As my examples have proven, no amount of power and training can guarantee that you'll get the transformations.

If we were to have it your way, then according to the Glassman Narrative, any saiyan who roles up with the Dark Dragon and asks him to have their Full Potential drawn, would gain SS4. What you have failed to understand is if you don't have the potential for something then how the hell are you gonna get it. Dark Shenron was asked to draw out Bardock's full potential and that potential reached SS3 because thats as far as his potential can go. Every saiyan has different levels of that potential, it's those varying levels of potential that makes it that HYBRID Saiyans can get Super Saiyan at very young ages and why some of the most seasoned and powerful saiyans could not. Potential plays a hand in obtaining transformations but the narrative that reaching your absolute limit means you get Super Saiyan 4 is plain wrong. Nowhere across DB Media is that ever even acknowledge so I have no idea where you got that idea from.

If we went wiith your idea then any saiyan who had their potential drawn out by Dar Shenron should get SS4. Caulifla's saiyan band of crooks ask DS for their potential to be drawn out? Gains SS4. Gine (goku's mom) ask for her potential to be drawn out? Gains SS4. 10 YEAR OLD RADITZ ask for his potential to be drawn out? Gains SS4. That is NOT how potential works. You need to have the potential in the first place for DS to bring out your not entitled to it.

This whole " pushed Bardock to the limits but couldn't just give him SSJ4 despite being a saiyan form he could get" is complete HEADCANNON as your assuming any saiyan pushed to the pinnacle of their Potential is naturally entitled to SS4. Nowhere across DB media is that a thing. By your logic is any random Saiyan on Planet Vegeta, like Paragus for example asked Shenron to bring out his potential to his absolute limit then he would get SS4 despite lacking all potential for REGULAR Super Saiyan transformation to begin with

You have to address why he can suddenly do this here and not the same thing when Bardock actively wanted to be stronger but didn't get this form. You mean the direct result of space time divisions happening leading to alternate versions of the characters to exist in the main timeline?

Also to answer this question. DS made a Random Bardock gained SS4 During the Dark Empire Saga. The Dark Empire Saga happened WAYYY before the current Saga so clearly DS already knows Bardcok and of the SS4 transformation and that he gave a random Bardock the ability to transform. The only reason THE ONLY REASON why he did not do so for this current Saga Bardock was simply because he was not asked to do so. Bardock wanted to get stronger but he never wanted to cheat out transformations he did not deserve, hence why he asked for the absolute LIMIT of his potential to be unlocked because his potential is still his own and we he did not ask to gain SS4. Clearly you forget that some saiyans are all about fairness and pride

Anyways I'm outta time for this
Any question you have about the Space-Time Divisions you can ask OwO, Otta or Viet about

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

No the Goten Bardock thing is completely relevant to the topic since you keep claiming he can't transform into higher forms cause he's not aware, Goten's not aware of SSJ but transformed easily on his own without even realizing, so this whole "they can't reach the forms cause they don't know about it" argument falls flat.

You're the one who made the argument with Vegeta peaking at SS2. Also, Goten was more than likely aware of Super Saiyan, unless neither Chi-Chi nor Gohan for some unknown reason didn't tell him about it. And again, Toriyama dissaproves the "every Saiyan has the potential for Super Saiyan" argument

Your proof is literally DS not being able to give him SSJ4 despite the wish, this same Dragon you guys are claiming can give him SSJ4 at random, warping timelines has nothing to do with fate though, those are two completely separate abilities which has no connection with one another, the burden of proof is on you that DS is specifically just warping fate itself as opposed to this either being another power boost at random or just a result of bringing another version of a character in the main timeline.

Because his wish was not to get SS4, only to draw out his power to it's absolute limits which is SS3. Toriyama's statement even supports this further, as all Saiyans don't have the same potential for Super Saiyan transformations. If you agree that fate manipulation =/= timeline warping, then you'll also have to agree that wish granting =/= timeline warping, and thus, further debunking your argument that "DS can't give SS4 to Bardock" since we're dealing with two completely separate abilities with no connection with one another. SS4 Bardock is not the result of a wish. And I did prove that he was changing Bardock's future. He was causing warriors who couldn't originally exist to actually exist, as stated by Chronoa. Not to mention that Bardock treated SS4 like it was a completely normal thing for him, while in the Episode of Bardock, he was absolutely shook about reaching SS1 and its power. But since you're stonewalling and not acknowledging Chronoa's statement, you can only come up with excuses. Turning impossibilities possible is atleast Causality Manipulation

Where did it say he needed Ahm's power for the scrolls? He just said he needed more power, and refers to the AI as a personal executioner, and he's fighting people who opposes his goals, nothing about the context of the scans imply it's specifically due to the scrolls, and especially on the fact the scrolls are concept or information since nothing the blog provided gives anything about the scrolls being literal concepts and information. Again, can you give me examples on concepts and info being actual requirements to affect a single scroll?

You seemed to have missed the part where they say that Sealas is explicitly trying to rebuild the world. By burning the scrolls and their records, he can reshape the world in his image. Are you seriously implying that Base Sealas can just literally rewrite the timelines as he sees fit lol? By affecting the records of the Time Scrolls he can both erase history and then remake it in his image to exclude all evil itself. Burning the Time Scrolls and their records was essential to his plans to reshape history. Having a high enough battle power to beat up the Time Patrol isn't gonna magically grant him the power to rewrite the world lmao. Ahms' power was absolutely necessary to rebuild history from the ground up.

Yeah, a computer recording info, what part of this is remotely information hax for time scrolls? Nothing about this is remotely information hax, instead it's just shit that a computer has, info. Where does this remotely correlate to the scrolls having literal info that needs to be manipulated to destroy the scrolls? Except you haven't disproven the time scrolls being destroyed resulting in entire timelines being destroyed as a chain reaction though, your scan on Agio "that was their fate" when he burned time scrolls and Sealas wanting to kill everyone by burning the time scrolls heavily imply this. Before you try and pull the appeal to motive fallacy on me, how about you actually refute my points on the scrolls being destroyed resulting in the timelines being destroyed? Because I've yet to see any counter arguments to this beyond "this could've happened if that was the case".

Good job ignoring scans again. Not only was the Tokipedia explicitly stated to be an accurate replica of a Time Scroll, but also, it was even literally shown to be a scroll. Here, see that? That is a scroll, and in the upper left corner it reads "Tokipedia". The Tokipedia is not a computer nor a robot (The robot only oversees the actual Tokipedia), it's literally just Fu's copy of a Time Scroll that he created to record the Time Rifts, since Chronoa's Time Scrolls don't record them, due to the Time Rifts and their history being separated from them lmao. Time Scrolls absolutely scale to the Tokipedia which records the information/data of timelines, as the Tokipedia itself is an accurate replica of a Time Scroll as shown and stated. How many times are you going to ignore scans?

How is it chain reaction when only a handful of people can actually affect the Time Scrolls and their records/data and when they have been shown to be completely unaffected by "normal" time erasure as I've proven multiple times. Chronoa can literally merge Time Scrolls and timelines into a singular one by manipulating the records directly, something which no other Time Patroller could do. Agios can affect the records directly, due to being a SKOT, and Fused Sealas was going to literally rebuild and rewrite history by burning the scrolls and their records.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Greenshifter so by your own logic any human being with computers with data that can create anything has information hax, that's essentially the argument here, I don't think I need to spell it out how this is stupid beyond reasoning.

Nah I’d consider that data manipulation. The “information about reality” part in what I wrote is important (as in reality itself), not “an aspect of reality”. The “reality changes as a direct consequence of the alteration of the data/information” part is also important.

I think the main difference would be that irl we make a simulation to model an aspect of reality. Here reality IS the simulation.

 

[Vietthai96]

@Vietthai96 us not having profiles doesn’t mean we can’t use us for comparisons on these types of examples.

Which is in the tokipedia, a computer, not their natural abilities which extends to the scrolls itself when they have a statement of the stuff not being recorded in the actual scrolls itself so none of this is remotely helping info hax being in the scrolls.

Anyway, i'm pretty busy until weekend so i will reply at best i can
1. There is a big difference between us real-life people and fiction, actually he still get data manipulation and a limited form of imformation manipulation via PC or similar equipments. The thing is we don't give full power because if we do that we get Low 2-C to Low 1-C rating, and since we don't treat all the fiction (game, anime, etc..) we created on PC as lower reality, we don't get much power. However, situation similar to a real life human superior to a lower fictional realm (reality > fiction) in a fiction verse still get the full, solid power/abilities and rating stuff

2. Uh oh, no, while there is a computer, it is just an AI to overseeing the actual Tokipedia, and Tokipedia was stated by Fu to be the exact replica of the Time Scroll. The stuff not being recorded in the book is because what happened in Tokipedia stayed in it, since it is it own space-time separated from normal history, as Fu used data and information to simulate actual timeline, everything recorded by Tokipedia already.

3. when they have a statement of the stuff not being recorded
This line means Time Scrolls can actually record stuff in it, which also being backed up by Fu statement that Tokipedia is a copy of the Time Scroll, which mean what Tokipedia can do, Time Scroll can do, the only thing is Time Rift is a simulation which separated, isolated, thus it Time Scroll will not record it which is under specific circumstance, not normal circumstance

That wasn’t even my counter argument, the stuff I said prior to the comment was my counter argument.

I don't think I need to spell it out how this is stupid beyond reasoning.

Again what i want to say is, calling other people's reasoning is stupid beyond reasoning is really not nice and it certainly not helping the debate, since it is your personal feeling

Anyway it is midnight in my country, need to sleep now for tomorrow work

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ss3micah How exactly is SSJ4 not a saiyan's full potential again? The context here being Bardock wants to be as powerful as humanly possibly, yet DS couldn't give him the strongest super saiyan form available, by this logic I can say you're pushing a narrative by assuming the highest end interpretation here for DS without any proof that it's specifically referring to warping fate itself.

Why exactly are you saying that Bardock lacks the potential to gain SSJ2 when the scan you guys showed me literally says "put me to my max potential" which gave him SSJ3? If he couldn't reach SSJ2 at all then there's no ******* way his maximum potential would even reach SSJ3 in the first place so that example doesn't even work here.

SSJ4 being the pinnacle of saiyan transformations isn't my headcanon at all, that's literally what we have for the maximum saiyan forms we got since no one has bothered to achieve SSJ5 at this point in time. Unless you have proof that there exists a super saiyan form that exceeds 4 then by all means prove me wrong, but as of now that is the pinnacle of saiyan forms we got since everything Goku and Vegeta have from Super is specifically god powers.

If he made SSJ4 Bardock during that saga then why are we assuming he's warping fate instead of just making the character from scratch? Like seriously you have not provided anything that doesn't make this context vague as **** and instead just leaves more questions than answers on this being fate hax.

@Dagoth_OwO you mean the two people who don't like fighting and would otherwise felt it was unnecessary to tell their kid during a time of peace that a transformation is necessary to live at that time? Again the series shows him being unaware of what he did despite getting super saiyan so the argument falls flat.

Warriors who couldn't originally exist coming to the timeline is still not fate hax, that could easily just be creation from DS on him making some characters on the fly as opposed to literal fate haxing.

Where did I say he can rewrite timelines at will? And again, answer my question on where is the proof the information and concept hax is necessary to affect a scroll.

So him making his own version of the scrolls with time rifts somehow means the scrolls themselves have information hax when you affect the main scrolls? Yeah that seems legit, again, still waiting for the scans that you need to control concepts and info for this to be a thing for time scrolls when at no point are the scrolls shown to be non corporeal, let alone literal concepts and information.

@Vietthai96 That still doesn't give the actual time scrolls these abilities in the first place, especially when the tokipedia is the only thing shown to have this information stuff and not the actual time scrolls, so at best this is something Fu can do, not the time scrolls itself.

And yet it's not recorded into the actual time scrolls, meaning they're two separate things, so this still doesn't help your case here.

Recording stuff doesn't mean the same thing as having records, which btw requires far more than that alone to grant information hax, especially when they don't make it very explicit.

@Greenshifter again, how exactly does this equate to every single person who affects a time scroll altering literal information? Because a computer doing this doesn't mean any random person who touched a scroll can do this, especially when the tokipedia and the scrolls are two separate objects.

 

[Greenshifter]

Warriors who couldn't originally exist coming to the timeline is still not fate hax, that could easily just be creation from DS on him making some characters on the fly as opposed to literal fate haxing.

It’d be DS creating an impossible timeline then or smth since it’s explicitly attributed to his space-time divisions. Which ig would qualify for causality manipulation, maybe just potent time manipulation?

Where did I say he can rewrite timelines at will? And again, answer my question on where is the proof the information and concept hax is necessary to affect a scroll.

Wouldn’t it be more like the scroll contains information and concepts, if you want to do anything with said info and concepts you need dark ki or time power? Like burning the time scrolls regularly wouldn’t do anything I suppose. (the information would just be decentralized)

So him making his own version of the scrolls with time rifts somehow means the scrolls themselves have information hax when you affect the main scrolls?

I mean if they’re a literal copy and they function the same, one’s just bigger than the other… then yeah sure?

Recording stuff doesn't mean the same thing as having records

If you’re recording stuff and you press the pause button, now you have a record of what you recorded.

which btw requires far more than that alone to grant information hax, especially when they don't make it very explicit.

Having a record which when altered, alters reality would certainly qualify for information hax.

@Greenshifter again, how exactly does this equate to every single person who affects a time scroll altering literal information? Because a computer doing this doesn't mean any random person who touched a scroll can do this, especially when the tokipedia and the scrolls are two separate objects.

I don’t think the computer thingy works for the Tokipedia but regardless the scroll’s abilities come from time power and said time power is used to record reality. So anyone who can affect reality via the time scrolls has info hax since they can essentially “interface” with the information that the time scroll holds.

Now the time scrolls can also hold concepts such as evil, which was going to get altered by Sealas. Time power scales since it is what allows the time scrolls to record said concept in the first place. Then there’s also the argument that being able to affect reality with the time scrolls means you can affect all of its information which includes the concept stuff.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

you mean the two people who don't like fighting and would otherwise felt it was unnecessary to tell their kid during a time of peace that a transformation is necessary to live at that time? Again the series shows him being unaware of what he did despite getting super saiyan so the argument falls flat.

Considering how Chi-Chi even at one point sparred with Goten, this seems very unlikely. But I digress, Toriyama has already addressed that not all Saiyans have the potential for Super Saiyan.

Warriors who couldn't originally exist coming to the timeline is still not fate hax, that could easily just be creation from DS on him making some characters on the fly as opposed to literal fate haxing.

Why would it be Creation? It's not like DS is literally creating entire new timelines or beings, he's warping history basically. The spacetime divisions are basically turning impossible futures into actual possibilities. Going by the Causality Manip page, it even points how "making a specific effect impossible to be caused" is Causality Manip, which is literally the opposite DS is doing by causing impossibilities to be possible. And as for Fate Manip, changing the future can qualify for Fate manip, as the Fate Manip page even uses changing the future as an example. Dark Shenron's feat should at the very least qualify for Causality Manip

Where did I say he can rewrite timelines at will? And again, answer my question on where is the proof the information and concept hax is necessary to affect a scroll.

The fact that normal time manipulation/erasure can't affect the scrolls and their records/data, as shown with the Tokipedia. If even Time EE can't affect them, then Base Sealas has no way of affecting them either. Even with Chronoa, when she merges timelines together, she directly affects the scrolls and their records/data to merge them back together. No one else in the Time Patrol can do that.

So him making his own version of the scrolls with time rifts somehow means the scrolls themselves have information hax when you affect the main scrolls? Yeah that seems legit, again, still waiting for the scans that you need to control concepts and info for this to be a thing for time scrolls when at no point are the scrolls shown to be non corporeal, let alone literal concepts and information.

Of course. The Tokipedia is explicitly stated to be an accurate replica of a Time Scroll. A replica by it's very definition is a copy of something. Tokipedia is an accurate replica of a Time Scroll, and thus, you can scale its mechanics to the Time Scrolls, as Fu was able to accurately replicate a Time Scroll to create his Tokipedia. It's even stated to be the Time Rift Edition of a Time Scroll. I mentioned Chronoa's feat in the previous part, and Greenshifter and Vietthai will prob want to explain info/concept manip a bit better.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Greenshifter creating a timeline is not in anyway shape or form causality hax dude, that's just creation/space-time manipulation at best.

They don't contain information and concepts, not only that but they have no proof for lacking a physical form to begin with, and yet these characters have NPI and concept and information just because they burn a time scroll. All of these evidence are severely lacking for justifications on these abilities, and just saying the scroll records the timeline doesn't give anyone hax here for destroying a scroll.

So you admit that they're not the exact same, thanks for that. Also no, this only showing is on the tokipedia, prove that these characters can do the exact same thing on their own without some computer doing this. For the nth time give me some actual ******* evidence instead of saying only the tokipedia is shown to do this.

That's never how concepts and information hax works, by that logic anyone and everyone that affects an entire timeline has almost every ability in the book cause they're affecting something in the timeline. That's not how it works here, you need proof they can control concepts and information for it to work, not only that but you haven't proven Evil as a concept exists, the blog only says "evil exists, so therefore it's a concept that's somehow type 1".

@Dagoth_OwO Because you guys literally told me Dark Shenron made another bardock in the past, why would this also not be another bardock he made given he originally couldn't exist? Again, there's no mention whatsoever in the scans that he's warping the impossibilities into actual possibilities with the scans, and for the record, no one in the entire wiki ever gets causality or fate hax for warping a timeline. But you don't have any evidence DS changed the future of someone to go down a certain path. Literally nothing here's explained to be that way so you're going off of headcanon at this point.

You're dodging my question, where's the proof the concepts and information are literally being manipulated as a requirement to affect a scroll?

Do you have any evidence the time scrolls do the same thing the tokipedia does? Because of the fact the events don't get recorded in the scrolls doesn't help your case that it's information hax.

 

[Antvasima]

Have you all reached any agreements here yet?

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Because you guys literally told me Dark Shenron made another bardock in the past, why would this also not be another bardock he made given he originally couldn't exist? Again, there's no mention whatsoever in the scans that he's warping the impossibilities into actual possibilities with the scans, and for the record, no one in the entire wiki ever gets causality or fate hax for warping a timeline. But you don't have any evidence DS changed the future of someone to go down a certain path. Literally nothing here's explained to be that way so you're going off of headcanon at this point.

Ummmm what? Are you referring to the Warrior in Black Clothes? That Bardock is the result of Agios recruiting him in her ranks, and who already existed and got his powers drawn out to its absolute limits. The only Bardock literally "created" by Dark Shenron is the SS4 Bardock. And again, originally couldn't exist = impossible to exist normally. How is this headcanon? Dark Shenron is effectively bringing impossible warriors into existence with his spacetime divisions. How is this not even causality manipulation when he's causing impossible warriors to become possible?

You're dodging my question, where's the proof the concepts and information are literally being manipulated as a requirement to affect a scroll?

To affect the scrolls and their information/data you need special powers. Towa for example literally needed Tokitoki's egg to directly affect the scroll to change Dabura's fate. She's literally directly affecting the scroll and its records/information, something she couldn't do without the egg's power.

Do you have any evidence the time scrolls do the same thing the tokipedia does? Because of the fact the events don't get recorded in the scrolls doesn't help your case that it's information hax.

Tokipedia was stated to be an exact replica of a Time Scroll, it's shown to be a Time Scroll, it's stated to be the "Time Rift edition" of a Time Scroll and it records and contains timelines/history like a Time Scroll. The difference between the two and how they function is practically nonexistent. And again, the Scrolls not recording the rifts doesn't mean that they can't record them. It's just that Chronoa has no reason to do so as it was not only stated that the history of the rifts is separate from the ones recorded in the Time Scrolls, but also, she has no reason to record something that she's actively trying to undo. Time Rifts are literal distortions in spacetime that the Time Patrol are actively trying to fix and undo, due to their negative effects. There's no reason for Chronoa to record something that she's actively trying to fix and undo.

Have you all reached any agreements here yet?

Some things have been agreed upon, and some are still being discussed. There's no rush really. Real life stuff, timezones and all

 

[Theglassman12]

Where in that entire line does "originally couldn't exist" automatically mean fate hax or causality hax in the slightest? Especially when Shenrons are known for creating things with their wish? Again, give more explicit statements than that.

That's not information hax, saving someone's life resulting in the change in the timeline doesn't remotely equate to information hax in the slightest. Where's the actual showings that they have literal information itself that they can control and manipulate at will?

The time rifts not being recorded in the time scrolls does mean they can't record them, prove that they're actually recorded and they literally control the information itself, especially in a combat applicable way here because none of this is helping your case.

@Antvasima call some staff members to comment since we're getting nowhere here.

 

[Antvasima]

Which parts have you agreed about and which still need to be evaluated? If each side writes their own interpretation of what still needs to be decided, I can ask a few more staff members for help afterwards.

 

[Theglassman12]

right now we're arguing about DS' fate hax and the information hax for the time scrolls. The only abilities left that we haven't come to a conclusion yet are:

type 1 concept

paralysis inducement (time power)

subjective reality (time power)

void hax (time power)

non physical interaction (time power)

purification (time power)

incorporeal (special ki)

radiation hax (special ki)

corruption, memory and madness hax (special ki)

power null and modification (special ki)

All the resistances for special ki that isn't attack reflection

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

It is hard for other staff members to evaluate this without proper explanations though.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm still busy so i will comment tomorrow for these matters, anyway going to sleep now due to timezone

 

[Theglassman12]

Just call the staff over and we'll give the summaries.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Where in that entire line does "originally couldn't exist" automatically mean fate hax or causality hax in the slightest? Especially when Shenrons are known for creating things with their wish? Again, give more explicit statements than that.

Making an impossible effect to be possible can qualify for atleast causality manip. Even the causality manip page brings up the example of how "making a specific effect impossible to be caused" would count as causality manip, which is the opposite that DS is doing. And again, this is not wish hax, only dark ki

That's not information hax, saving someone's life resulting in the change in the timeline doesn't remotely equate to information hax in the slightest. Where's the actual showings that they have literal information itself that they can control and manipulate at will?

You misunderstood my argument. I didn't meant that saving someone and changing the timeline automatically equates to info hax. What I meant is that Towa altered Dabura's timeline by directly manipulating the scroll's records. With Tokitoki's egg, she directly changed the records of the scroll to alter the timeline as she changed Dabura's fate. It's how she did it what actually matters here. She changed what was actually recorded in a Time Scroll (Dabura gets eaten and killed by Buu in the original recording/timeline) and she effectively rewrote that recording so that Dabura didn't die. Affecting the records/data of the Time Scrolls directly can be used to effectively rewrite/alter the timelines, this is the point I was trying to make.

The time rifts not being recorded in the time scrolls does mean they can't record them, prove that they're actually recorded and they literally control the information itself, especially in a combat applicable way here because none of this is helping your case.

Not doing something =/= incapable of actually being able to do something necessarily. There is a clear difference. Again, you're contradicting the very clear statements of Tokipedia being an exact replica of a Time Scroll. The Tokipedia can't be an accurate replica of a Time Scroll if it's outright different from a Time Scroll. That literally goes against the very definition of an "accurate replica". By your logic, Fu didn't accurately replicate the Scrolls since the Scrolls can't record a Time Rift but the Tokipedia can, making the Tokipedia objectively different and inaccurate from a "regular" Time Scroll. It's literally impossible for something so different to be an exact replica. And as I mentioned in the Towa example before, affecting the records/data can be used to literally rewrite timelines and events.

Also I completely forgot, in the very first Time Rift timeline, Demigra was the Supreme Kai of Time instead of Chronoa, and the Scrolls could actually record the events of that Time Rift timeline, as even shown when the entire Time Vault was corrupted by Fu's change in history in that Time Rift (The Scrolls record the history of the Time Vault and everyone in there too btw). So yes, Time Scrolls can record Time Rifts just like the Tokipedia. It's just that Chronoa just doesn't choose to do so, as I've explained multiple times previously.

Anyways, Vietthai said he's gonna comment tomorrow so I'll just wait what he says. Might be a bit busy tomorrow to respond myself, but we'll see

 

[Braking]

this thread is soooooo fun to read

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dagoth_OwO at this point we're not getting anywhere so let's wait for Ant to call some staff members over on the fate hax and information hax so we can give our summaries of the arguments.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

@Dagoth_OwO at this point we're not getting anywhere so let's wait for Ant to call some staff members over on the fate hax and information hax so we can give our summaries of the arguments.

Very well. Vietthai will hopefully address his reasoning today aswell

 

[Greatsage13th]

While I was reading through this, I must question, do we really need the word "concept" to be mentioned just to have concept manipulation? Seems pretty redundant if the context of the term is already there without the term.

 

[Vietthai96]

While I was reading through this, I must question, do we really need the word "concept" to be mentioned just to have concept manipulation? Seems pretty redundant if the context of the term is already there without the term.

I don't think we really need the word: concept being mentioned, also even if it is mentioned it can be flowery, metaphor language without context

 

[Ss3micah]

While I was reading through this, I must question, do we really need the word "concept" to be mentioned just to have concept manipulation? Seems pretty redundant if the context of the term is already there without the term.

Clearly we dont
I hate to be that Guy that brings up other verse to prove a point but Bleach got Conceptual Hax with no mention of the word CONCEPTS at all which was Approved

Read this thread

Clearly "Innate Abstractions" that that make no mentions of CONCEPTS exists and the Wiki accepts this
Clearly its accepted that names by default are abstract which are by default conceptual manipulation

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Ok, I read through the thread and I agree with almost everything.

Except one thing, which I'm kinda iffy about........I'm not sure about giving Toki Toki and other time birds Abstract existance tho.
I'm pretty sure the wording behind his supposed Conceptual existance was rejected a couple of times, with the same wording that appears in the blog.
Iirc....the explanation doesn't seem to fall under solid AE type 1 neither tho.

 

[Vietthai96]

Ok, I read through the thread and I agree with almost everything.

Except one thing, which I'm kinda iffy about........I'm not sure about giving Toki Toki and other time birds Abstract existance tho.
I'm pretty sure the wording behind his supposed Conceptual existance was rejected a couple of times, with the same wording that appears in the blog.
Iirc....the explanation doesn't seem to fall under solid AE type 1 neither tho.

Eh, actually that sandbox is placeholder (underconstruction), before it was the sandbox for Evil Aura and Power of Destruction, but after it was accepted and i copied the content into the actual Special Ki page, i deleted the contents and made a new one, so sorry, it could cause misunderstanding

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Eh, actually that sandbox is placeholder (underconstruction), before it was the sandbox for Evil Aura and Power of Destruction, but after it was accepted and i copied the content into the actual Special Ki page, i deleted the contents and made a new one, so sorry, it could cause misunderstanding

Ah I see, it's ok. Besides that, the rest of this CRT is very well made.

Count me as an agreement

 

[Greatsage13th]

Ah I see, it's ok. Besides that, the rest of this CRT is very well made.

Count me as an agreement

Count me in as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Which parts have you agreed about and which still need to be evaluated? If each side writes their own interpretation of what still needs to be decided, I can ask a few more staff members for help afterwards.

right now we're arguing about DS' fate hax and the information hax for the time scrolls. The only abilities left that we haven't come to a conclusion yet are:

type 1 concept

paralysis inducement (time power)

subjective reality (time power)

void hax (time power)

non physical interaction (time power)

purification (time power)

incorporeal (special ki)

radiation hax (special ki)

corruption, memory and madness hax (special ki)

power null and modification (special ki)

All the resistances for special ki that isn't attack reflection

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

It is hard for other staff members to evaluate this without proper explanations though.

Just call the staff over and we'll give the summaries.

@Dagoth_OwO at this point we're not getting anywhere so let's wait for Ant to call some staff members over on the fate hax and information hax so we can give our summaries of the arguments.

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @Maverick_Zero_X @EliminatorVenom @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @Maverick_Zero_X @EliminatorVenom @LordGriffin1000 @Starter_Pack

I am here, lay the arguments down on me

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. It is appreciated.

 

[Vietthai96]

1. Dark Ki Causality & Fate hax
The scan is pretty clear, due to space-time division caused by Dark Shenron's mere presense, an SSJ4 Bardock appeared and Chronoa stated he is someone who should not exist originally. Second feat is UMX Demigra who performed a similar thing to Dark Shenron, caused all possibilities to overlap. There is also other minor supporting feats which all listed in Special Ki Manipulation page, Dark Ki section.
So now time to explain in detail:

• All the scan and statement was very clear, as Chronoa stated a space-time division caused an SSJ4 bardock who originally should not exist to exist. and UMX Demigra caused all possibilities to overlap
• Space-time in verse contexts also mean history, timeline, dimension. Thus space-time division caused by both Dark Shenron is actually also mean history division, timeline division. Distorted and change history is a textbook example of Causality Manipulation since it distorted the cause to create different effect. History in game also refering to the entire timeline, past, present and future, so Dark Shenron also distort and change the future which is textbook example of Fate Manipulation. UMX Demigra feat which is the same as Dark Shenron also supported this idea, as he caused all sorts of possibilities to overlap, in game context Possibilities also refer to Future
• Now some will say that it is possibly just Creation feat of Dark Shenron, however, the scan stated pretty clear, space-time division, mean he divided space-time, created another timeline/space-time/history which make SSJ4 Bardock who originally should not exist, happened, so create a new history with different, outcome still Causality hax or Fate hax or even both
• Some say it is Dark Shenron created the guy because wish. This point is a no, since space-time division instantly happened the moment he was summoned in the scan and we know that character can only wish when Eternal Dragon finish their awaken from their dragon ball set. And further more, Mechikabura, wished for eternal youth and his prime power, not wished for some random SSJ4 Bardock. And before anyone say that Dark Shenron can grant multiple wishes, he stated himself he can grant only one, even in the later saga/mission it was confirmed so, as he originally can only grant one wish, three wishes is due to Fu's experiment
• Now for more, some will say it is just BFR and Chronoa's statement is bad with her didn't know an SSJ4 bardock existed therefore stated he originally didn't exist. However it is not, as confirmed that Supreme Kai of Time like her and Agios are capable of perceiving timelines and their events across time (there is also more but i think currently are enough), she even stated herself to be manager of Time, so no she is not knowing an SSJ4 Bardock is completely unfounded, and even if that true she would made a different statement like i don't know such a guy exist or something, not a statement as: warriors that originally couldn't have existed. Chronoa herself in Dark Shenron's scans also sensed space-time division despite Dark Shenron was summoned in different timeline, it is really wrong that somehow she not known a guy existed or not
• Now lastly if we talking about narrative, then the entire narrative of Xenoverse and Heroes is about villains distorting timeline and changing history, created all kind of events that not happen normally which perfectly align with all the feats and reasoning listed above. Some random arguments like Dark Shenron created this and that is completely unfounded and disregard of lore and narrative of the verse itself

Well that done for Dark Ki causality and fate hax stuff

2. Information and Concept

Vietthai96/sandbox1

vsbattles.fandom.com

All the explaination is in the sandbox

And before we jump on, this sandbox purpose is just to explain about concept and info hax, who get the ability (if this get accepted of course) is a different matter

Anyway it is midnight in my timezone, i will go to sleep, and please guys debate in peace while i'm sleeping. Other stuffs will be cover by OwO and Otta