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Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions

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@Quantu given the fact trunks and Chronoa's surprised on where they're at it doesn't seem to me that they're aware of these histories being a thing, which makes me question them being able to affect these nonexistent histories even more.
 
Time Power capable of erasing everything, all histories
Theglassman12 said:
@Quantu given the fact trunks and Chronoa's surprised on where they're at it doesn't seem to me that they're aware of these histories being a thing, which makes me question them being able to affect these nonexistent histories even more.
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huh??, sorry but she is surprised???, what expression of her indicated that she is surprise??. Trunks is obvious because it was his first mission as Time Patroller, he is newbie
 
@Greatsage13th it does question your knowledge if there's something you're not familiar with appearing in the realm of knowledge you're supposed to be aware of.

@Vietthai96 first off it doesn't mention all histories, second he's using a time scroll to nuke it, the same thing I've asked for proof that time scrolls are non physical to begin with which has no scans whatsoever throughout the course of this thread

The fact she's not fully aware of her surroundings, plus is there any scans whatsoever that the time powers can affect this nonexistent history? Cause I'm still waiting for that.
 
So what has been accepted here, what has been rejected, and what is uncertain?
 
Thank you for the information, but has there really been no progress, changed viewpoints, and agreements for the past 1.5 months since this post was made?
Theglassman12 said:
Alright this caught my eye and I have more than few questions about this upgrade as well as some of the other abilities for special ki.

Abstract Existence (Type 1): So where in this explanation remotely describes the time birds as a literal concept? The explanation mentions it being an embodiment of time, that's at best type 2 abstract, doesn't really help that there's no explanation for it lacking any physical form whatsoever, which is what qualifies for a type 1 abstract. And going off all the descriptions on the time bird, it's just stated to control time and only give birth to a new timeline, as opposed to all the timelines that exist, on top of its existence sounding a lot similar to the supreme kai's link with the gods of destruction where their deaths lead to the deaths of the gods. So I'm not really sure that would count as abstract here. Just more time hax for the time bird.

God Ki: Do you have any scans whatsoever about the bird having god ki at all? Because Beerus not recognizing it as a god or any statements of it having god ki doesn't really help anyone who's not familiar with the games. In fact is there any scans for these abilities the time bird grants because the only links

Power of Destruction resistance: Do you have any scans whatsoever that the universe tree was actively trying to use the destruction powers to kill the time bird? Because the scan on it being able to help goku despite being absorbed, which was the intent of the tree.

Concept type 1: Idk what exactly gave you the idea that evil energy makes it a concept at all but it doesn't. It just means it's energy from evil beings who had to be purified, and Janemba is just the manifestation of all the evil energy. Not only that but energy as a whole doesn't have a physical form in a general sense so it doesn't prove it being a concept, let alone it being a type 1 concept. Not even the time scrolls are implied to be independant from reality as it's the reason the timelines exist to begin with. Mechikabura absorbing time doesn't really help on the type 1 aspect given that time is reborn from the eggs which creates reality alongside time, making it more of a type 2 concept than a type 1.

Information manipulation: So how in any way shape or form does "record history and timelines" remotely means they control literal information itself? Especially when you're using the term "record" here wrong when you use it as a verb as opposed to it being a noun, cause recording history and timelines is not the same thing as containing records, and even then that's not enough to warrant information manipulation at all. Also a good chunk of the information scans just merged the same scans together so it looks like a mess to find the newer scans.

In fact some of the stuff on time powers and the special ki pages look a bit weird so I'm going by them one by one.

space time manipulation and higher dimensional manipulation: Given all the scans that's given here, this heavily seems like a time bird thing only given everyone else having some time powers don't remotely mention controlling the entire space time continuum, just being able to wander through time easily. On top of all of Chronoa's scans here doesn't really make it sound like this applies to everyone else and it's just a thing for her to control time. Hell Demigra mentions having absorbed the time bird's power allows him to control all of time and space, and this guy just mentions he can reduce the time of the entire universe to 0 thanks to having the time bird's power, so I'm not sure why this would scale to anyone with time powers and not just the time bird.

Creation: Again, same as above, this seems like a time bird thing only as opposed to something that scales to everyone with time powers.

Memory manipulation: So where's the scan on them erasing memories specifically with time powers here? Because there's nothing here. The second scan seems fine enough.

Paralysis Inducement: Same as above, is there any statements at all that it's time power that's doing this?

Causality, and Fate hax: So what exactly about this scan implies causality hax? This looks like power nullification or statistics reduction. Same with the whole fate hax thing as "that's their fate" doesn't sound literal fate hax as the user just destroyed a time scroll which lead to the destruction of a timeline, as opposed to literally controlling the fates of others.

Existence erasure: Again, this looks like a chain reaction effect of erasing the time scrolls resulting in the erasure of the timeline given how important they are to the stories. Demigra's statement and Aios' stuff has more validity with this than the time scrolls but this can just be a timebird and kaioshin of time ability than a normal time power for everyone.

Reality Warping and Subjective reality: Since when did keeping the timelines/universes intact automatically means they can warp reality? None of this remotely mentions warping the fabric of reality with time powers. Subjective reality needs a scan since there's nothing here to justify it.

Void Manipulation: Got any scans on the crack of time being a void? Cause nothing's there.

Durability Negation: Scans for space time stuff here being used to negate durability? Also the concepts and information stuff doesn't apply here at all when it's literally a chain reaction event from the scrolls.

Non-Physical interaction: Why would the time scrolls which have no statements whatsoever of lacking a physical form be an argument for NPI? Let alone affecting concepts and information? Nothing about this implies NPI. Also scans for affecting voids again? This so far is the only saving grace I see for NPI on the page but the lack of scans doesn't really help here.

Resistance Negation: Yeah this is a hard no for me, having stronger hax (which nothing about this implies) indicates any form of resistance negation to time powers. The page itself specifically stated that just overpowering one's resistance with stronger hax does not qualify for res negging whatsoever.

Acausality negation: This honestly needs to be reworded to just being "can affect type 4 Acausal beings". Negating type 4 would imply the time bird being able to bring the demons back into the normal flow of time, rendering them susceptible to paradoxes. Also again, looks like a time bird thing, not a time powers in general thing.

Purification: Is this really purification? The time bird just destroyed whatever that was when transforming. Nothing about that implies any purification that cures people from status ailments or anything.

Damage Manipulation, Statistics manipulation, Accelerated Development, Adaptation and RE negation: Again, looks more like power nulling/statistics reduction here than negation. Especially when it mentions it's due to energy used here so what part of this implies the last 3 abilities being negated?

Resistance: Again, only implied to be possible with the time bird, not with normal time users who aren't on the same level as the time bird given how big of a deal he is.

That's all I got for time powers, onto the next one.

Illusion Creation and Perception hax: So what about this is remotely implied in the scans here? It's only mentioned mind control, that's it, no illusions or perceptions.

Incorporeality: This isn't incorporeal, briefly turning into an energy storm is just intangibility at best, Incorporeal is only for being who naturally lack a physical form.

Radiation Hax: Why is this remotely considered radiation hax? Nothing about this is remotely implied or stated to be the blutz wave when Vegeta just went straight into SSJ4 without the monkey form, something that the blutz wave did to vegeta in GT. So yeah unless there's actual statements that dark ki functions exactly like the blutz wave, this is a hard no for me.

Corruption, Morality and Madness hax: The scans here literally have statements of the characters being brainwashed/mind controlled by the dark ki. Nothing about this implies the 3 abilities listed there.

Physics and Law hax: This again has a statement of the demon god's power and the time bird's power, meaning it's not something normal dark ki users have, so the whole "real world stuff and fu's world being affected" part shouldn't apply here. Dark Shenron sounds more like a specific thing for shenron than all dark ki users if Fu needs the time bird to do this.

Causality, Probability and Fate hax: What part of these scans imply rewriting fate or probability or cause and effect as a whole? A lot of this just screams space time warping to the point of bringing alternate versions of characters from different timelines as oppose to rewriting all of these abilities to make this happen.

Power Modification and Nullification: This sounds more like a chain reaction of altering the timeline as opposed to making them weaker or modifying it to being stronger.

Space-Time and higher dimension: None of the demon world scans or fu's normal cuts would imply making or controlling a higher dimension, especially when the demon world is in a space that already existed prior to the demon world being a thing. the doors swallowing the worlds would be a better justification than these scans.

Why the **** does dark ki users resist Transformation of all abilities? Don't these dark ki users transform all the time? And has anyone other than Fu resisted the dark factor possession? Because this seems like a thing specific to him.

Space-Time Manipulation: The scan with whis doesn't mention anything about him making another space time, just more BFR.

Resistance to possession: Why is the universe tree scan being used when the time bird is what let Goku resist it in the first place?

Reality Warping: This just looks like more dragon ball energy shaking the world over literally warping the fabric of reality.

Resistance to attack reflection: scans please? nothing's there.

Resistance to Power nullification: You do realize the same scan that shenron claims he can't do anything about mechi's powers, he literally undoes his mind control right? This doesn't exactly help your case on him having enhanced resistance when his powers are affected by the wishes.

Resistance to Space and causality: This is just time resistance at best, where's the space hax and cause and effect being warped here?

Resistance to reality warping: Is this really a resistance because this just distorts the environment and not the target.

Paralysis and telekinesis: Is there a gif on this? Because it's not clear if it's doing both or one.

Corrosion inducement: Why is this corrosion and not just deconstruction/EE like hakai energy is?

Reality Warping: Making the world of void into a different color looks more like Void manipulation than full on reality warping here.

Everything else I haven't covered I either find ok or find redundant to cover as my same points apply there.
Click to expand...
 
godofice said:
so time power doesn’t have space time manip?
Click to expand...
the hell, it is obvious power of Time Power bruhhh. i remove the Dura Neg part because it is redundant anyway
Theglassman12 said:
first off it doesn't mention all histories, second he's using a time scroll to nuke it, the same thing I've asked for proof that time scrolls are non physical to begin with which has no scans whatsoever throughout the course of this thread

The fact she's not fully aware of her surroundings, plus is there any scans whatsoever that the time powers can affect this nonexistent history? Cause I'm still waiting for that.
Click to expand...
1. no bro, he mentioned everything, mean all histories. It is the contexts of the verse, Mechikabura after having Time Power also, absorbed everything (all of time, all of histories)
2. not fully aware???, i what make you think she isn't full aware the surrounding???. Also if she didn't know the place, why she still know it is Nonexistent History???, in fact she directly mentioned it to trunks.

Anyway still finding more scans, but with these current contexts i think it is still enough to at least give a Possibly
 
Vietthai96 said:
the hell, it is obvious power of Time Power bruhhh. i remove the Dura Neg part because it is redundant anyway

1. no bro, he mentioned everything, mean all histories. It is the contexts of the verse, Mechikabura after having Time Power also, absorbed everything (all of time, all of histories)
2. not fully aware???, i what make you think she isn't full aware the surrounding???. Also if she didn't know the place, why she still know it is Nonexistent History???, in fact she directly mentioned it to trunks.

Anyway still finding more scans, but with these current contexts i think it is still enough to at least give a Possibly
Click to expand...
mb
 
Theglassman12 said:
Making a new post for this to make it easier to follow.

Age Manipulation (time power): Any scans on this? IT STAYS

Paralysis inducement (time power): [/B]Is there any scans to indicate that it's time power doing the paralysis because the gif doesn't really tell me much. IT STAYS

Reality Warping and Subjective reality (time power): None of the scans indicate reality warping, especially when the first scan is Fu needing the time bird with demon realm ki in order to do it, and the rest is just maintaining timelines, which is just a sustaining feat at best and not literal reality warping. Where exactly in the Bardock/Mira scan is it implied that they can take one's desires and manifest it to reality because the clip doesn't show me anything about this.

Void hax and NPI (time power): Where's the statement that the crack of time is a literal void? Especially if the crack of time is a demon realm when it's just stated to be a space, not a literal void?

Durability Negation (time power): Any scans on the characters being able to bypass durability with affecting space time would be nice, cause there's no scans on that at all. IT GOES AWAY

Purification (Time power): Is there any indication that the time powers can literally purify the demon powers here because again, time bird blowing up an area doesn't tell me much when he nukes the source of the demon fuckery and everything turns to normal.

Morality Manipulation (Dark Ki): Where in the scans does it say that they turn sides based on morality as opposed to it being just mind control? Especially when the scans say they're being mind controlled? Also nothing about the scans for enhanced dark ki imply it's more potent than before, especially when you're using Chronoa being corrupted as proof despite using her being corrupted as evidence for the weaker version of dark ki? None of that makes any sense here. IT STAYS

Radiation Hax (Dark Ki): Where's the proof it's the exact same thing as the Blutz wave? It literally just gives Vegeta SSJ4 and skips the entire Oozaru form, something the Blutz wave does in the first place so it's not even comparable.

Physics and Law hax (Dark Ki): Like I said, the scan literally shows Fu using the power of the dark demon realm and the time bird to do this in the first place. So this doesn't remotely count for dark ki, just something specific that Fu did.

Power Modification and Power null (Dark Ki): Nothing in the description remotely implies them actively modifying or nulling the powers, just changing the timeline, so unless they actually modify the powers or nullify it, this wouldn't count.

Resistance to Dark Ki (God Ki): The fact the time bird got affected by transmutation from dark ki despite being a god doesn't really tell me that they resist every single application of Dark Ki, at best this seems like they resist the mind control aspects of dark ki, not literally everything else. IT GOES AWAY

Resistance to Possession (God Ki): The time bird and universe tree was the reason Goku resists this, so this isn't even a normal god ki resistance in the first place.

Resistance to Power Null (Dark Factor): The fact the dragon can nullify Mechi's mind control despite saying he can't do anything about it doesn't really make it consistent here, it's a contradiction if he can grant Demigra the ability to stop Mechi's mind control and also just the same old dragon balls rule of not affecting beings stronger than them.

Resistance to Memory Hax (Dark Factor): Any scans on the Dark Factor resisting Android 21's waves? Cause nothing's there, also what about seeing your memories remotely imply a resistance if he doesn't resist his memories being tinkered in the scans?

Resistance to Space hax (Dark Factor): Nothing about this is warping space, just reversing time.

Resistance to reality warping (Dark Factor): What part of this is a resistance if it just affects the environment and not the people itself?

Corrosion Inducement (Destruction Ki): Nothing about Beerus and Champa's fight is corrosion, just more deconstruction/EE given their powers.

Paralysis and Telekinesis (Destruction Ki): Which one is it, telekinesis or paralysis cause you can't have both while claiming it's a telekinesis, also a gif would be nice.

Mind and Morality hax (Evil ki): Is it even mind control or morality hax when the scans are literally just goku and vegeta going insane with the ki?

Limited Power absorption/nullification (evil ki): The scan seems weird, this just looks like the ki overpowered Vegeta's ki, not that it absorbed or nullified the energy for Vegeta.

Also why are you guys using this scan for both Dark factor AND Dark Ki despite saying the former is better than the latter? Doesn't make it consistent here.

Also just a side tangent in general, but the Dark Factor and Evil Ki shouldn't be on the verse page given with new rules stated you need at least 5 users of the same ability for it to register as a standalone page. So Cumber's stuff shouldn't even be there, same applies to Dark Factor when Mechi and Fu are the only ones who scale to this.
Click to expand...
@DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @Elizhaa

What do you think about Glassman's evaluations above?
 
@Theglassman12 Gods resist Android 21's waves which can erase memories. Dark Factor scales above Demon Gods

The God Bird only accelerated the birth of the universe and reduced the normal time it'd take. It's clearly the "Dark Demon Realm" power that's actually distorting the universe itself. Fu himself stated that he's the one who messed it up himself and distorted his universe in a bad shape, not the God Bird

As for NPI, Chronoa's clearly aware what the nonexistent history is, since she's the one who told Trunks about it. A nonexistent history is still a history, and it's contained in a Time Scroll which Chronoa can manipulate at will. At worst (not "at best" for the record), it'd still be a "possibly"

The rest idc
 
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@Vietthai96 Is that scene with Mechikabura even scalable to time power when he made a giant black hole with his own powers to do that? Something the other time characters don’t have?

The text bubbles don’t make it clear given it’s not pointing at anyone when it’s said but I’ll accept a possibly for NPI.

@Dagoth_OwO but why would it upscale? Especially when last time I checked the waves was from a device she has, and gods don’t have any showings of being affected by the dark factor unless there’s feats of this.

Yeah because he did it with the time bird, not only that but he needed a lot of energy from the universe tree going off from that scan alone so it makes me doubt they can actually do it with demon magic alone.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Vietthai96 Is that scene with Mechikabura even scalable to time power when he made a giant black hole with his own powers to do that? Something the other time characters don’t have?

The text bubbles don’t make it clear given it’s not pointing at anyone when it’s said but I’ll accept a possibly for NPI.

@Dagoth_OwO but why would it upscale? Especially when last time I checked the waves was from a device she has, and gods don’t have any showings of being affected by the dark factor unless there’s feats of this.

Yeah because he did it with the time bird, not only that but he needed a lot of energy from the universe tree going off from that scan alone so it makes me doubt they can actually do it with demon magic alone.
Click to expand...
Mechibakura just absorbed the timelines differently i dont see why it wouldn’t be scaleable also I think it should be flat out NPI chronoa knows of the existence of the non existent history
 
@Theglassman12 Dark Factor and the Dark King born from it is a superior Demon God transformation. Mechikabura and his Dark Factor is even capable of casually handing out Demon God transformations to his subordinates like it's nothing. Even Towa by simply taking in the leftover Dark Factor was considered a superior Majin/Demon God transformation by Roberu. Also, Mechikabura did brainwash Chronoa with his Dark Factor so it has feats of affecting gods.

The bird only reduced the time for the birth of the universe. As for the energy part, the Universe Tree's sole purpose is to absorb enough energy to create an actual functional universe, not a distorted one. It's Fu who's doing the distortion, not the Universe Tree itself. If Fu didn't have to resurrect the Universe Tree with the power of the Dark Demon Realm after it was put out of commision, the new universe would have been undistorted. Additionally, the feat of the other demons creating the Demon Realm with only Dark Ki, could potentially further support Fu being responsible for his universe's distortion.
 
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Theglassman12 said:
Is that scene with Mechikabura even scalable to time power when he made a giant black hole with his own powers to do that? Something the other time characters don’t have?
Click to expand...
Well, he created the Black Hole in his Time Power Unleashed state, which have Time Power
Theglassman12 said:
The text bubbles don’t make it clear given it’s not pointing at anyone when it’s said
Click to expand...
Actually, it is Chronoa said, if she didn't say anything, trunks will never know what is that place to make the comment
Theglassman12 said:
but I’ll accept a possibly for NPI.
Click to expand...
Alright, so we will conclude this problem with Possibly rating
 
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@Dagoth_OwO are the Kai’s remotely comparable to the GoD though? Cause last time I checked the latter is a different breed compared to the former.

So how does it equate to Law and Physics hax exactly? Especially when the distortion that was caused by Fu in the earlier scan just mentions an empty realm, not the laws and physics being ******.

@Vietthai96
A black hole created by Dark King Mechikabura with the Dark Factor and Time Power.
Click to expand...
Are you sure about that because that’s not what’s said on the page, so it again makes me doubt this scales to time power in general.

I’m still fine with a possibly. If there exists anything in the future of them warping the nonexistent history then I can see it happen, though then again given the redraft of NEP you might need a bit more evidence to prove nonexistence but I could be wrong on this.
 
I hope that you will be able to reach some kind of openminded rational agreement here.
 
@Theglassman12 Beerus was talking about the Gods in general so I'm not sure if that matters much really. Whis was also unaffected by the waves, and he's an angel, not a God of Destruction. Although there are Supreme Kais who are faaaaaar superior compared the rest like Zamasu and Chronoa, but I digress.

The "Empty Spacetime" is referring to the fact that the Copy Universe lacks all mortal life, thus an empty universe, which is why the Crimson-Masked Saiyan had to create fake mortals in that Copy Universe on his own to succeed in his Zero Mortal Plan. But anyways, Crimson-Masked Saiyan explained that the rules of the Copy Universe was that anything done in the Copy Universe would cause the OG Universe 7 to be affected aswell as they're now connected. Considering how it's an actual rule of the Copy Universe, it could qualify for Law Manip, perhaps even Causality Manip since causing something in the Copy Universe will have an effect on the Real Universe 7. Although, I will say that if this doesn't qualify for Law Manipulation, we can simply just use the Demon Realm feat instead and call it a day.

Also, to quickly clarify about the black hole stuff, it is indeed made from both the Dark Factor and Time Power, so I think we should just conclude with the "Possibly NPI".
 
@Dagoth_OwO yeah but given how different Beerus is treated compared to King Kai and even Supreme Kai the GoDs and angels doesn't seem to be comparable to the kais.

so he just made a universe with no life, I don't really see how that gives him physics and law hax, let alone anyone with demon ki those hax. And this copy universe was again made with the aid of demon realm ki and the time bird which leads to any of these distortions happening, has there been any form of these distortions that happened before without the need of any outside source, and it was done exclusively because demon ki? If so then I might see this staying. As for it affecting both it sounds like causality hax than just law hax, but that's assuming it scales to demon ki in general.
 
Is there anything that can be applied here so far?
 
Antvasima said:
Is there anything that can be applied here so far?
Click to expand...
Pretty busy, but with what i remember Time Power stuffs is fine, with Durability Negation going to be remove, NPI and Void hax will be Possibly rather than a full-blown solid rating, possibly Purification types 1 & 2 will also be removed since the last time i remember Glass disagree with it

Now we current discussing Dark Ki stuff, Crack of Time is a void was rejected so i will remove Void hax from Dark Factor

Well that all i can remember
 
Durability Negation isn't being removed for Fu is it? Time Cutter can cut through Space-Time and Fu uses it offensively. That's qualifies for DN, no?

Goku Black (Sickle of Sorrow) and Janemba (Dimension Sword) have Durability Negation
 
Vietthai96 said:
Bastante ocupado, pero con lo que recuerdo, Time Power está bien, con Durability Negation se eliminará, NPI y Void hax serán posiblemente en lugar de una calificación sólida en toda regla, posiblemente los tipos de purificación 1 y 2 también se eliminarán desde el la última vez que recuerdo que Glass no está de acuerdo con eso

Ahora estamos discutiendo cosas de Dark Ki, Crack of Time es un vacío fue rechazado, así que eliminaré Void hax de Dark Factor

Bueno, eso es todo lo que puedo recordar
Click to expand...
what happened type 2 and conceptual information manipulation
 
Quantu said:
Durability Negation isn't being removed for Fu is it? Time Cutter can cut through Space-Time and Fu uses it offensively. That's qualifies for DN, no?

Goku Black (Sickle of Sorrow) and Janemba (Dimension Sword) have Durability Negation
Click to expand...
No, what get remove is Dura Neg on Time Power page, not other Dura Neg of other characters since their Dura Neg is because of different reason
luis3333 said:
what happened type 2 and conceptual information manipulation
Click to expand...
It stay
 
Vietthai96 said:
No, lo que se elimina es Dura Neg en la página Time Power, no otros Dura Neg de otros personajes, ya que su Dura Neg se debe a una razón diferente.

se queda
Click to expand...
well a question keysword should not have durability denial since it denied mechikabura and at the same time time power since keysword takes part of time power
 
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