Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Vietthai96 quick question on the purification scans, are the two scans word for word what Xeno Trunks is saying or is it just a generalization? Because I've seen a couple of scans here and there in the general abilities section with barely much translation beyond just a general summary. Other than that, if that's what it does in the games then I'm fine with type 3 purification.

That means absolutely nothing when warping concepts and information since Chronoa's not warping concepts and information, just sealing away an entire realm.

Yeah a gif that shows a supreme kai of time dissolving time scrolls into a box doesn't really tell me that they're naturally incorporeal unless there's some statement that they lack a physical form in the first place, which flies in the face of everything else we've seen of time scrolls in this thread.

You did not read what my arguments were did you? I never once said that a mere name drop of concepts and information is needed, I said that there needs to be proof that in order to affect time scrolls, you'd need to warp concepts and information in the first place. Especially when the latter is something very explicit in fiction that it needs some form of mentioning that information is a thing and not just "oh I erased you so clearly that means you warped information" type deal, again are you going to attempt to argue against my point about how nothing about Ahms is remotely stated on the wiki to nuke the scrolls as a specific goal, moreso him trying to get data on the time patrol to fight them back? Because his own wiki page on top of the scans you posted where it just converted the knowledge it got into combat contradicts everything you're claiming about Sealas being able to nuke concepts and info in the first place.

Again, pay attention to what I'm arguing instead of assuming, prove that in order to destroy the time scrolls, you need to warp concepts and information to destroy the time scrolls in the first place. Name dropping the word concept wasn't even the main core of my argument so you're just strawmanning me. Also the Other World lacking a concept of time, even if we're to give it the benefit of the doubt and say that's literal has nothing to do with my argument about time scrolls. Are you just going to throw random scans that have no correlation to time scrolls to try and push for concept hax or are you going to move on and tackle the rest of the abilities I'm arguing against? Because we've done this song and dance for the past few pages on concepts and information and you already have several staff disagreement in the end. Bringing up the same points that's already addressed isn't going to help your case.

 

[Delta333]

Now I'm even more inclined to disagree with concept and information hax considering all of arguments related to the names drop stuff are flat out irrelevant, like, since when we said that those abilities are wrong because of that?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

@Vietthai96 quick question on the purification scans, are the two scans word for word what Xeno Trunks is saying or is it just a generalization? Because I've seen a couple of scans here and there in the general abilities section with barely much translation beyond just a general summary. Other than that, if that's what it does in the games then I'm fine with type 3 purification.

That means absolutely nothing when warping concepts and information since Chronoa's not warping concepts and information, just sealing away an entire realm.

Yeah a gif that shows a supreme kai of time dissolving time scrolls into a box doesn't really tell me that they're naturally incorporeal unless there's some statement that they lack a physical form in the first place, which flies in the face of everything else we've seen of time scrolls in this thread.

You did not read what my arguments were did you? I never once said that a mere name drop of concepts and information is needed, I said that there needs to be proof that in order to affect time scrolls, you'd need to warp concepts and information in the first place. Especially when the latter is something very explicit in fiction that it needs some form of mentioning that information is a thing and not just "oh I erased you so clearly that means you warped information" type deal, again are you going to attempt to argue against my point about how nothing about Ahms is remotely stated on the wiki to nuke the scrolls as a specific goal, moreso him trying to get data on the time patrol to fight them back? Because his own wiki page on top of the scans you posted where it just converted the knowledge it got into combat contradicts everything you're claiming about Sealas being able to nuke concepts and info in the first place.

Again, pay attention to what I'm arguing instead of assuming, prove that in order to destroy the time scrolls, you need to warp concepts and information to destroy the time scrolls in the first place. Name dropping the word concept wasn't even the main core of my argument so you're just strawmanning me. Also the Other World lacking a concept of time, even if we're to give it the benefit of the doubt and say that's literal has nothing to do with my argument about time scrolls. Are you just going to throw random scans that have no correlation to time scrolls to try and push for concept hax or are you going to move on and tackle the rest of the abilities I'm arguing against? Because we've done this song and dance for the past few pages on concepts and information and you already have several staff disagreement in the end. Bringing up the same points that's already addressed isn't going to help your case.

The time scrolls store the things from the different histories and destroying the time scroll itself doesn’t do anything and you have to directly erase the contents to affect things like how destroying the contents of the scroll made the demon realm disappear the time scrolls are the fundamental building blocks of the sdbh reality and affecting the contents of the time scroll affects the reality/information in jt

 

[Theglassman12]

Destroying the scrolls DOES do something, Agios burning the scrolls which erased the timelines they had is a blatant example of this so your argument doesn't really stand here.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Destroying the scrolls DOES do something, Agios burning the scrolls which erased the timelines they had is a blatant example of this so your argument doesn't really stand here.

My bad I meant destroying a history with brute strength still has a scroll of it and for it to be truly begone you have to destroy the time scroll

 

[Theglassman12]

Which does not prove that you nuke concepts and information doing it, cause nothing about that is remotely mentioned as a thing required to destroy the time scrolls in the first place.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the current conclusions and what still needs to be decided here?

 

[Everything12]

So what are the current conclusions and what still needs to be decided here?

Still in the process of going through each of the points, so I don't think their's much that's been 'concluded' yet.

 

[Theglassman12]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Still in the process of going through each of the points, so I don't think their's much that's been 'concluded' yet.

@Everything12

Will you and other staff members here have the time to help us conclude this thread soon?

 

[Everything12]

@Everything12

Will you and other staff members here have the time to help us conclude this thread soon?

Well I will look over what has been said once all the points have been discussed, but I can't say if that will happen anytime soon.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Everything12 do you want to give your inputs on the concept and information arguments? The more staff input we get on that the faster we can move on with the other abilities.

 

[Everything12]

Going to have to agree that this doesn't grant Concept Manipulation or Information Manipulation, you going to need more concrete context that proves that such destruction requires needing to destroy such attributes. This conjecture feels too weak to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out.

I am fine with what Everything12 and Theglassman12 have agreed about (not counting their preferences in numbers ).

 

[Everything12]

Thank you very much for helping out.

I am fine with what Everything12 and Theglassman12 have agreed about (not counting their preferences in numbers ).

Huh, didn't notice.

I haven't actually agreed to anything. Only disagreed to a small, but major, part of the revision.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but didn't Glassman reject that as well? In that case it seems to have been rejected period.

 

[Everything12]

Yes, but didn't Glassman reject that as well? In that case it seems to have been rejected period.

Apologies, misread your post.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem at all.

 

[Vietthai96]

Completely forget this thread bruhh

Going to have to agree that this doesn't grant Concept Manipulation or Information Manipulation, you going to need more concrete context that proves that such destruction requires needing to destroy such attributes. This conjecture feels too weak to me.

Would you mind explain why it is weak???, i want to hear it

 

[Theglassman12]

He literally said what I was saying, nothing you've provided is evidence that concepts and information is a requirement for the time scrolls to be nuked, which is what's needed for your argument to pass.

 

[Vietthai96]

He literally said what I was saying, nothing you've provided is evidence that concepts and information is a requirement for the time scrolls to be nuked, which is what's needed for your argument to pass.

excluding concept aside, the scan i posted literally show Time Power erase the information inside the Time Scrolls, so i don't really know why you just keep repeating this argument

 

[Theglassman12]

Because you've yet to prove that the things they're affecting are concepts and information in the first place. The fact more staff members disagree with you just makes this pointless to argue since it's rejected. So move on to the stuff I'm bringing up instead of reviving a dead topic.

 

[Quantu]

Rather than going in circles, can someone just summarise: What exactly does "information" fundamentally constitute and why don't the records on a time scroll qualify?

 

[Theglassman12]

Controlling information would mean controlling literal knowledge, facts, data, etc. that’s what controlling information means, nothing about the time scroll remotely mentions any of these things being controlled in a literal sense for making/destroying a time scroll, just that the time scroll has events of an entire timeline in it.

 

[AguilaR202]

Controlling information would mean controlling literal knowledge, facts, data, etc. that’s what controlling information means, nothing about the time scroll remotely mentions any of these things being controlled in a literal sense for making/destroying a time scroll, just that the time scroll has events of an entire timeline in it.

IIRC the scrolls have a canon computer like user interface with multiple versions, at least the one Fuu uses which is a replica of an actual scroll.

 

[Theglassman12]

I’m aware with what Fu does, this entire thread I’ve said at the very best Fu scales to this with prep time given what his own versions of the time scrolls do. However everyone else with the normal time scrolls have never shown these abilities whatsoever.

 

[Delta333]

Bump, since nothing new is made and more staff disagreed with info and concept hax can we move to the next abilities?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I think that we should stop arguing about what our staff here have already decided.

 

[Theglassman12]

Making a new post for this to make it easier to follow.

Age Manipulation (time power): Any scans on this? IT STAYS

Paralysis inducement (time power): [/B]Is there any scans to indicate that it's time power doing the paralysis because the gif doesn't really tell me much. IT STAYS

Reality Warping and Subjective reality (time power): [/B]None of the scans indicate reality warping, especially when the first scan is Fu needing the time bird with demon realm ki in order to do it, and the rest is just maintaining timelines, which is just a sustaining feat at best and not literal reality warping. Where exactly in the Bardock/Mira scan is it implied that they can take one's desires and manifest it to reality because the clip doesn't show me anything about this. REALITY WARPING STAYS

Void hax and NPI (time power): Where's the statement that the crack of time is a literal void? Especially if the crack of time is a demon realm when it's just stated to be a space, not a literal void? POSSIBLY

Durability Negation (time power): Any scans on the characters being able to bypass durability with affecting space time would be nice, cause there's no scans on that at all. IT GOES AWAY

Purification (Time power): Is there any indication that the time powers can literally purify the demon powers here because again, time bird blowing up an area doesn't tell me much when he nukes the source of the demon fuckery and everything turns to normal.

Morality Manipulation (Dark Ki): Where in the scans does it say that they turn sides based on morality as opposed to it being just mind control? Especially when the scans say they're being mind controlled? Also nothing about the scans for enhanced dark ki imply it's more potent than before, especially when you're using Chronoa being corrupted as proof despite using her being corrupted as evidence for the weaker version of dark ki? None of that makes any sense here. IT STAYS

Radiation Hax (Dark Ki): Where's the proof it's the exact same thing as the Blutz wave? It literally just gives Vegeta SSJ4 and skips the entire Oozaru form, something the Blutz wave does in the first place so it's not even comparable.

Physics and Law hax (Dark Ki): Like I said, the scan literally shows Fu using the power of the dark demon realm and the time bird to do this in the first place. So this doesn't remotely count for dark ki, just something specific that Fu did.

Power Modification and Power null (Dark Ki): Nothing in the description remotely implies them actively modifying or nulling the powers, just changing the timeline, so unless they actually modify the powers or nullify it, this wouldn't count. IT GOES AWAY

Resistance to Dark Ki (God Ki): The fact the time bird got affected by transmutation from dark ki despite being a god doesn't really tell me that they resist every single application of Dark Ki, at best this seems like they resist the mind control aspects of dark ki, not literally everything else. IT GOES AWAY

Resistance to Possession (God Ki): The time bird and universe tree was the reason Goku resists this, so this isn't even a normal god ki resistance in the first place.

Resistance to Power Null (Dark Factor): The fact the dragon can nullify Mechi's mind control despite saying he can't do anything about it doesn't really make it consistent here, it's a contradiction if he can grant Demigra the ability to stop Mechi's mind control and also just the same old dragon balls rule of not affecting beings stronger than them.

Resistance to Memory Hax (Dark Factor): Any scans on the Dark Factor resisting Android 21's waves? Cause nothing's there, also what about seeing your memories remotely imply a resistance if he doesn't resist his memories being tinkered in the scans?

Resistance to Space hax (Dark Factor): Nothing about this is warping space, just reversing time.

Resistance to reality warping (Dark Factor): What part of this is a resistance if it just affects the environment and not the people itself?

Corrosion Inducement (Destruction Ki): Nothing about Beerus and Champa's fight is corrosion, just more deconstruction/EE given their powers.

Paralysis and Telekinesis (Destruction Ki): Which one is it, telekinesis or paralysis cause you can't have both while claiming it's a telekinesis, also a gif would be nice.

Mind and Morality hax (Evil ki): Is it even mind control or morality hax when the scans are literally just goku and vegeta going insane with the ki?

Limited Power absorption/nullification (evil ki): The scan seems weird, this just looks like the ki overpowered Vegeta's ki, not that it absorbed or nullified the energy for Vegeta.

Also why are you guys using this scan for both Dark factor AND Dark Ki despite saying the former is better than the latter? Doesn't make it consistent here.

Also just a side tangent in general, but the Dark Factor and Evil Ki shouldn't be on the verse page given with new rules stated you need at least 5 users of the same ability for it to register as a standalone page. So Cumber's stuff shouldn't even be there, same applies to Dark Factor when Mechi and Fu are the only ones who scale to this.[/B]

Bringing this back up, we still have 16 abilities left to go

 

[Theglassman12]

If I'm not getting any responses regarding the abilities I'm calling to question I'll just some staff members for input by the end of the week.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that seems fine.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

I’m aware with what Fu does, this entire thread I’ve said at the very best Fu scales to this with prep time given what his own versions of the time scrolls do. However everyone else with the normal time scrolls have never shown these abilities whatsoever.

Sureeee, it's not like I showed you actual feats of Time Scrolls recording Time Rifts just like the Tokipedia could. Funny isn't it how you conveniently sidelined those after demanding me to show the proof that Time Scrolls can do the exact same thing as Tokipedia. A bit sus how the Time Scrolls actually performing the literal main function of Tokipedia somehow still makes them entirely different from each other lmfao.

As for the rest of the abilities:

Purification: As I've said many times, the castle is not a source of darkness, it's just a building. Idc at this point, so that feat can be removed

Radiation Hax: Fu has already replicated this same feat in the past, and Great Ape was skipped.

Physics and Law hax (Dark Ki): As I've said before, Tokitoki only accelerated the time required to birth a universe. And Crimson stated that it's an actual rule of the copy universe that everything destroyed there would destroy stuff in the original universe. But idfc, just remove that part and leave the Demon Realm feat and it's taken care of.

Resistance to Possession (God Ki): Don't care. Remove it

Resistance to Power Null (Dark Factor): Don't care. Remove it

Resistance to Memory Hax (Dark Factor): Gods in general resist 21's waves and Demon Gods and their superior Dark King are obviously Gods. The whole part can be removed from Dark Factor.

Resistance to reality warping (Dark Factor): Don't care. Remove it.

Resistance to Space hax (Dark Factor): Don't care. Remove it.

Corrosion Inducement (Destruction Ki): It isn't Deconstruction nor EE. They clearly weakened the floor and it broke after Goku stepped on it. They aren't deconstructing the floor to smaller parts, nor are they literally erasing it from existence.

Paralysis and Telekinesis (Destruction Ki): It's TK atleast. The users lifts the person up and holds them in place.

Mind and Morality hax (Evil ki): It's clearly stated that Evil Ki snaps the minds of its victims, so it's clearly affecting the mind. Morality Manip functions similarly to Mind Manipulation as stated by the page aswell, and it's turning people evil.

Limited Power absorption/nullification (evil ki): Agreed.

As for the number of users. Evil Aura has more than five users but not all of them have profiles. Dark Factor has five users on the wiki now.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dagoth_OwO and you’ve still not posted the scans to prove your point since you make claims without backing it up yet again, if this is seriously the best you got then drop the argument and move on because more than several staff members disagree.

fine by me, just get actual translations for the in game purification because having just Japanese Raws doesn’t help.

And this is through dark ki? Not some other form of power? If so then I’ll accept it.

I’m aware of the rule, that wasn’t really my problem with the abilities, my problem is the fact time power and dark ki is required to do that, also I’ve yet to see any scans on the demon realm being a realm made through dark ki as opposed to it always existing.

Fine by me and fine by me.

Can you post the scan where they’re classified as gods? If so I’m fine with them resisting memory hax.

fine by me and fine by me.

Except it looks very identical to the Battle of Gods movie with what Beerus did to the egg he had on his hands. It looks more deconstruction than corrosion.

Then it’s telekinesis, not paralysis inducement.

Snapping someone’s mind would imply they went insane. On top of the fact they attacked everyone around them, even people who were controlling the situation so it doesn’t sound like morality hax.

Glad we’re on an agreement on something.

if they don’t have the pages yet, then it should all be in Cumber’s page until those characters get their own pages. As for dark factor if there exists 5 users on the wiki then I guess it can stay as a separate page.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Glassman.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

@Dagoth_OwO and you’ve still not posted the scans to prove your point since you make claims without backing it up yet again, if this is seriously the best you got then drop the argument and move on because more than several staff members disagree.

I've posted the scans several times already. In feat number 1, both Chronoa and Elder Kai quite blatantly state that there's a Time Rift in this Time Scroll that they're viewing. At start, Chronoa tells Trunks and the Future Warrior about how Bardock dragged Mira into a Time Rift. After this, everyone looks at the Time Scroll placed on the table to view the recorded fight between Mira and Bardock, and Elder Kai reconfirms that the Time Scroll's recorded fight took place in a Time Rift. In feat number 2, the Supreme Kai of Time Demigra Time Rift was indeed recorded in the Time Scrolls as all the scrolls in that Time Vault are visibly corrupted by this massive change in history (something which the Time Scrolls always do when their recorded history is manipulated) so they're clearly recording this rift. The first feat alone is a clear-cut case of the Time Scrolls performing the Tokipedia's main function of recording Time Rifts, as the Bardock and Mira fight contained in that Time Scroll was stated twice to be an actual Time Rift.

fine by me, just get actual translations for the in game purification because having just Japanese Raws doesn’t help.

Fair enough

I’m aware of the rule, that wasn’t really my problem with the abilities, my problem is the fact time power and dark ki is required to do that, also I’ve yet to see any scans on the demon realm being a realm made through dark ki as opposed to it always existing.

Well in that case, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Fu even implied that is was his messing directly that caused the universe to be in that bad state and an empty space-time, but oh well. As for the Demon Realm itself, it was specifically build/created by the sorcerers/demons with their Dark Ki. If it weren't for them, the Dark Demon Realm would not exist.

Can you post the scan where they’re classified as gods? If so I’m fine with them resisting memory hax.

A Demon God is a God like Super Saiyan God, something which even Beerus classifies as an actual God

Except it looks very identical to the Battle of Gods movie with what Beerus did to the egg he had on his hands. It looks more deconstruction than corrosion.

Not exactly. The egg pretty much turns into sand or whatever the moment Beerus touches it. The floor itself only cracks and collapses after Goku stepped on it, and it doesn't even turn into smaller parts like the egg. From the examples in the Deconstruction page, this doesn't seem like it.

Snapping someone’s mind would imply they went insane. On top of the fact they attacked everyone around them, even people who were controlling the situation so it doesn’t sound like morality hax.

Well they do call it the "Power of Evil" so that would imply that they're literally turning evil. But the latter which you said is also true.

Glad we’re on an agreement on something.

Indeed

if they don’t have the pages yet, then it should all be in Cumber’s page until those characters get their own pages. As for dark factor if there exists 5 users on the wiki then I guess it can stay as a separate page.

Understandable.

Then it’s telekinesis, not paralysis inducement.

Fair enough

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dagoth_OwO and are these time rifts literal information/data that are being warped? Also the scrolls being corrupted doesn't answer my question on the concept and information of any realities in the scrolls being affected in the first place. The fact there's no elaboration on these things being warped as a requirement to affect time scrolls in the first place already puts the validity of these abilities being on the pages to being very questionable, at this point it's better to move on to tackle the rest of the abilities because we already got enough staff input for this and neither side is backing down on this.

How exactly did he mess with the world again? Because that's kind of important when the process of him warping the world involves using the time bird and the demon world energy to do. Yeah, and the space they were in already existed when they were imprisoned so it doesn't really tell me they made it from literal nothingness and made all the altering rules as opposed to the rules already being there.

Thanks, that's fine by me.

Fair enough then, corrosion inducement can stay.

So I assume you agree morality and mindhax doesn't sound right and it should be just madness hax or?

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

@Dagoth_OwO and are these time rifts literal information/data that are being warped? Also the scrolls being corrupted doesn't answer my question on the concept and information of any realities in the scrolls being affected in the first place. The fact there's no elaboration on these things being warped as a requirement to affect time scrolls in the first place already puts the validity of these abilities being on the pages to being very questionable, at this point it's better to move on to tackle the rest of the abilities because we already got enough staff input for this and neither side is backing down on this.

Very well then. Although my stance hasn't changed, I can agree that there's no reason to continue this topic for another several pages.

How exactly did he mess with the world again? Because that's kind of important when the process of him warping the world involves using the time bird and the demon world energy to do. Yeah, and the space they were in already existed when they were imprisoned so it doesn't really tell me they made it from literal nothingness and made all the altering rules as opposed to the rules already being there.

Well, obviously the whole "rule" stuff, plus it being an empty space-time (referring to the fact it lacks all mortal life). But tbh, I'd be fine with treating this feat as a possibly supporting evidence for the Demon Realm feat.

As for the "empty space" where the sorcerers were imprisoned, the statements for law and physics specifically talk about the Demon Realm having magic overrule science, and the empty space originally was not the actual Demon Realm itself. The Demon Realm came into existence only after the sorcerers were banished in the empty space 75 million years ago and then altered it to their liking, thus creating the Demon Realm itself, a shadow world run according to magic. While the empty space existed beforehand, it was not the Demon Realm yet, so the statements in question can't apply to the empty space as the empty space =/= the Demon Realm, and it's specifically the Demon Realm created by the sorcerers which runs on magic.

So I assume you agree morality and mindhax doesn't sound right and it should be just madness hax or?

Madness is fine. I still believe that the door for morality is open, but frankly speaking, it's not that important really

 

[Theglassman12]

actually that does beg to question, cause the scans mention magic has more influence than science and it’s a realm run by sorcerers, how much is this actually on the entire demon world functions on different laws where magic is the substitute for anything science related, as opposed to the fact that because sorcerers occupy the majority of this realm that magic just became more common to see here? Because the scan itself never mentions that the demon world itself functions on these different laws, just that magic is much more common.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

actually that does beg to question, cause the scans mention magic has more influence than science and it’s a realm run by sorcerers, how much is this actually on the entire demon world functions on different laws where magic is the substitute for anything science related, as opposed to the fact that because sorcerers occupy the majority of this realm that magic just became more common to see here? Because the scan itself never mentions that the demon world itself functions on these different laws, just that magic is much more common.

Technology/science is pretty common in the Demon Realm so the scans are definitely law related. Towa herself is a genius scientist who created Mira (plus Fin and Fu) with the technology and science of the Demon Realm, and most of the Dark Empire's fodder demon foot soldiers even rely on their technological advantage like their spaceships which can even cross dimensions. Even Demigra utilizes his mobile fortress Shirogame which is depicted like a giant technological machine on the inside. With an entire army utilizing Demon Realm technology/science which is atleast comparable to what humanity in DB has to offer, the notion of "magic being more common to see there" makes no sense really.