Dragon Ball Heroes Infinite Speed Revision

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If you are just going to strawman those who disagree with you without bringing anything worthwhile to the thread, don't bother.

I also have to agree with Sera. S = D / T where T is 0 is an invalid mathematical equation. It provides no result. It cannot be used to warrant a speed value.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Matt...

Almost everyone in the Time Patrol that appeared in Heroes for story purposes at least scales to Base Goku . That's quite a bit of characters .

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I agree with Kep and Ever about that the infinite/immeasurable speed threads have been a nightmare to straighten out, so I am not looking forward to any more of them.

However, I am way too tired to have a good sense of judgement at the moment, so never mind me.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Prepare to downgrade every infinitely fast character ever if you're treating "time visibly passes on the monitor screen" as a valid argument against the series."

Not remotely my argument. My argument is that a lack of time has no effect on these people, nor is it portrayed as having any meaningful consequences or difference from life in a realm with time.

And not true either. People who are capable of crossing quantifiable distances instantly would have infinite speed. Just like those who would move past a time stop through sheer speed. Or cross infinite distance in finite time.

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

Matthew.

You just are trying to prevent DB from getting infite speed at all costs.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Almost everyone in the Time Patrol that appeared in Heroes for story purposes at least scales to Base Goku . That's quite a bit of characters .

That's good evidence of it being an outlier, then.

 

[Dark649]

This thread should be closed and the matter should be brought up in another discussion without rage nor hatred, also where Kep and Seed should be free to post scan and other stuff about DBH.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Seems fine first glance.

Considering this wiki's total lack of a consistent Infinite Speed guideline, I'm sure this will get argued immensely though

Ryukama saw this coming miles away lol.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While I still agree with Everlasting, I don't really appreciate Rapid's rude behavior against Matt. Also, everyone, please try as best you can to remain civil.

And I agree with Dark, any more derailment, and we'll need to close the thread and possibly make the new one Staff only.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Not remotely my argument. My argument is that a lack of time has no effect on these people, nor is it portrayed as having any meaningful consequences or difference from life in a realm with time.

The Royal Knights having movement beyond time in combat has zero consequences on their everyday life, because fiction doesn't care about the consequences. This is exactly why our guidelines exist. To avoid this argument from being made.

As Ever said, you're trying to apply nonexistent standards.

 

[AKM sama]

Ryukama saw this coming miles away lol.

I also knew the standards for infinite speed are going to be heavily debated again ovo

 

[Bluetrekking]

"Almost everyone in the Time Patrol that appeared in Heroes for story purposes at least scales to Base Goku . That's quite a bit of characters ."

This is false. If it's true, provide scans as I'm pretty sure this never happened. The only person in the Time Patrol that scales is Beat and that's SSG and above.

 

[DMB_1]

There are consequences. When SS4 Xeno Goku Powers up, He warps the timeline he's in. However, Chronoa states that he won't warp time because the Demon Realm is apart from time.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"The Royal Knights having movement beyond time in combat has zero consequences on their everyday life."

This isn't remotely my argument. Please don't strawman.

"As Ever said, you're trying to apply nonexistent standards."

S = D / T where T doesn't even exist is not a quantifiable equation.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, you're using authorial intent as an argument. Authorial intent regarding certain feats is worth nothing.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not using authorial intent. I'm using what is blatantly demonstrated on screen / page as an argument, that they have no true infinite speed.

 

[PaChi2]

Summarizing:

Infinite speed Demon Gods is ok.

Infinite speed everyone and their mother is being argued against.

Maybe it'd be best to close this and create a thread just to discuss the latter.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think there's anyone, except maybe a couple wankers, who really wants to make everyone Infinite Speed via several layers of backwards scaling.

 

[Frantzy12]

Who exactly is everyone if there are less then 10 DBH profile?

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

So, people who disagree with you are a "couple wankers"?


How am i the one being rude here?

 

[Dark649]

That was uncalled for Matthew.

 

[DMB_1]

The WoV and the Demon Realm are portrayed very differently

1) The WoV is stated to not have space nor time only once, but it's proven wrong because time clearly passes there, characters who are only FTL+ can move there, and there's even a clock

2) The Demon Realm is stated several times to not have time, and even said to be very different from timelines, and it's inhabited only by God tiers.

 

[Kepekley23]

> This isn't remotely my argument. Please don't strawman.

Asking me not to strawman without elaborating on how I strawmanned hardly means anything

> S = D / T where T doesn't even exist is not a quantifiable equation.

Sera is objectively wrong here.

Physical time = 1. Time itself is what allows distance and speed to have any meaning.

If time = 0

In order for movement to be = 1, your speed would need to be infinity. And that's an oversimplification of it.

She is working under the incorrect assumption that infinity divided by infinity is 0, which is incorrect. Infinity\infinity is undefined. Infinity\anything else is still infinity.

 

[AKM sama]

Y'all need to calm down otherwise it would seriously turn into a civil war lol.

 

[Sera_EX]

Ugh....for goodness' sake do you guys even realize in order to have a speed value you need to travel somewhere? If you traveled any sort of distance and time cannot be applied because it is undefined then guess what?? It's literally immeasurable . . .

So what about infinite speed? If S = Infinity, how do we get such a result? Well, let's think shall we? If I cross an infinite realm in one hour, what would that be? S = D/T. So S = ∞/1 hour. ∞ divided by 1 equals zero (technically a value very close to zero). So S = NaN.0000 kmh mph. You're basically looking at infinite speed. Now, Math 101, on a calculator, ∞ = NaN (not a number).

Wait a minute Sera, why have we been using time to determine infinite speed then? Good questio... I DON'T KNOW.

If t = undefined because there IS NO TIME or you are moving beyond linear time OR moving in more than one temporality, you cannot use the speed formula. You cannot measure it. It is immeasurable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So, people who disagree with you are a "couple wankers"?

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't keep trying to start fights.

Backwards scaling a God-Tier feat to the whole verse is wrong. I'm sure you can agree.

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

OKay then, Matthew.

Which characters would you consider "God Tier" for DBH?

 

[Dark649]

Matthew, we admins are supposed to handle a discussion in a coerent and civil way.

 

[Straika]

So, is there going to be an speed upgraded for the Demon Gods or not?

 

[Kepekley23]

If time didn't exist, the world as a whole would literally 100% stand still. So no, it is not an unquantifiable equation. It means your speed is infinity (technically not just that, but just for the sake of simplicity)

If time = 0

Speed = ∞.

Because time is what makes "distance" and "velocity" hold any meaning.

 

[Sera_EX]

Kepe

I'm not working under any assumption.

I said "more or less". 1/infinity is a value close to zero. That's not universally accepted I know but it's either that, zero, or undefined. There's more than one answer to this. Surely you know better. Don't mock me.

Nothing can equal infinity but infinity.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Outside the flow of time =/= infinite speed. You do realize this, yes? It's one of the most critically important factors of determining the upper echelons of speed. This is "void lacking spacetime" nonsense all over again.
Infinite speed is not about time people, that's immeasurable. It's about distance. Register that, please. Because with these two speeds we tend to always go in meaningless circles.

Infinite = anywhere instantly

mmeasurable = anywhere and anywhen instantly.

I generally agree with Sera's assessment on speed, which is shown above ^.


But the thing is, there are so many profiles with feats similar to the Demon Gods from Dragon Ball Heroes, so with the way the wiki seems to rate these speed feats, I am in agreement with the upgrade.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So..

You agree that the logic is wrong, but you also agree with the upgrade because "A lof of profiles do it".

This is literally Argumentum Ad Populum.

 

[RapidMotorcycle19]

which characters do you think would get the upgrade, Matthew?

 

[Kepekley23]

You do realize that Sera is not agreeing with you that the upgrade is wrong? She is arguing that this feat would qualify under Immeasurable as opposed to just Infinite, if I understand her correctly.

If not, ignore this.

 

[Bluetrekking]

Agree: 29 (Gargoyle, Ever, Knight, Ryukama, Glass, Kep, Riki, Dieno, Amexim, Dragon, Ryu, Asnav, Julian, Zenkai, Rapid, Hrish, Quantu, Ultima, Kaltias, DMB, Pachi (Demon Gods only), Hst, Straika, Dark649, Frantzy, Dziga, DDM, UMR, Warren)

Disagree: 4 (TheUpgrademan, Matt, Fire, Maverick)

Neutral: 6 (Seed, Cal, Sera, Dodo, Velox, Js)

Probably the most agreements I've seen on a CRT.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Kep

No.

She is saying that the feat is Immeasurable in the sense that it can't be quantified. Not Immeasurable as in the Speed Rating. She clarified to me on Hangouts.

 

[Kepekley23]

The issue is...that notion is wrong, as we already quantify timeless void feats, and had dozens of discussions about this already. Last one was 1 month ago.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Dividing anything by infinity makes the number undefined. What does equal is if time is 1 /infinity or if distance is infinity.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Matt

Calm down and at least try and be careful what you say alright? There is a thing to be blunt, but there is also the need to know when not to say certain things. Calling people wankers just because they argue this, even if they are proven to be objectively wrong later on, is uncalled for. This will do nothing more than cause unneeded conflict. Something we have enough of already.

@Rapid

Just stop talking okay? Throughout this entire discussion you have been trying to start conflict. Just hush.

@Everyone else

Calm down. Not every Dragon Ball thread needs to turn into a warzone. The fact that Dragon Ball has to go through this entire process for every big upgrade is flat out ridiculous. We have both sides screaming each other's head off, making wanker and downplayer comments, accusations of being biased for and against the upgrades along with a whole bunch of other crap. People can't even communicate about Dragon Ball without biting each others head off. Also if any of you have an issue with Infinite speed. Make a separate CRT. Clearly discussing it here is not going to accomplish anything. Matter of fact it made, what was a simple upgrade, into the complicated mess that we see now. Can you people really not see how this turned out?