Dragon Ball GT/Non-Canon Revision

[Chartate101]

even if Omega Shenron can't disperse it, Gogeta can.

EDIT: and again, I don't think anyone is arguing 3-A Gogeta. just "at least 3-B+" Gogeta

 

[WindGodAcheron]

@Kepekley

The wiki pretty clearly goes for energy output over area of effect:

Attack Potency

• An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level [. . .] We are aware that this technically violates the principle of conservation of energy, as it should logically disperse upon impact, but fiction generally tends to ignore this fact, so we overlook it as well. [. . .] The attack potency depends upon the energy output of the attack, not the area of effect of the attack.

Yi Xing Long might not be able to disperse it - we actually don't know he can't, but I guess it is a respectable low-end - however, he is able to wield and form energy output on that level, then condense it down to a smaller area of effect (as stated by both him and Oob).

Plus, Gogeta himself is able to override and purify the entirety of the condensed energy.

 

[Kepekley23]

> EDIT: and again, I don't think anyone is arguing 3-A Gogeta. just "at least 3-B+" Gogeta

WindGodAcheron pretty clearly stated he believes Gogeta is Universal in his first post.

 

[Kepekley23]

@WGA

...Okay, you got me.

I will wait for other people to weigh in with everything before saying who I agree with, however. That's an extremely controversial upgrade

 

[WindGodAcheron]

> EDIT: and again, I don't think anyone is arguing 3-A Gogeta. just "at least 3-B+" Gogeta

WindGodAcheron pretty clearly stated he believes Gogeta is Universal in his first post.
Yeah, I do. And there should be nothing wrong with having a different opinion. Healthy discussion should be made between two sides Either way, if Gogeta purified an attack that, by your admission, has condensed 3-A energy, then he should be 3-A. Not 3-B. That's masking the feat. Unless someone disproves what was posted above.

 

[Chartate101]

my mistake

 

[AKM sama]

Tbh, that "attack" was going to destroy the universe gradually by affecting planet after planet, galaxy after galaxy.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

Tbh, that "attack" was going to destroy the universe gradually by affecting planet after planet, galaxy after galaxy.

Have you read the thread? This isn't relevant to the condensed energy in the slightest and I have explained why in depth within this very thread.

 

[AKM sama]

It is relevant. Because if the same energy corrodes a planet at a time and then goes on to corrode another planet, it still remains planet level. If a galaxy level character destroys all the galaxies of the universe one by one, he doesn't become universal.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

You appear not to have read my former posts clarifying this misconception, so I'll repeat them.

Yi Xing Long's Minus Energy Ball is an attack that condenses the negative energy to a single source, as stated in GT itself. That single source is focused on the Earth, and it only radiates small pockets of energy to other worlds that are nearby. Basically, it is like this:

• Imagine that the energy required to destroy the universe is 1,000,000, and the energy required to destroy a star is 0.1. Just to exemplify.

• The Minus Energy Power Ball's condensed source energy is 1,000,000, enough to destroy the universe, however, it radiates small pockets of 0.1 every second, which corrodes other worlds.

• By the time the source energy of 1,000,000 has been fully depleted, the universe has already been destroyed.

Elder Kaioshin states that the negative energy that corrodes the Earth is so full to the brim that it overflows to other worlds in small pockets, resulting in their destruction as well and eventually the universe's destruction.

But the condensed attack potency of the original source is still 3-A. This is explained in depth on GT by both Yi Xing Long himself and Elder Kai.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

Yi Xing Long clarifies that the Minus Energy Power Ball is an attack that heavily condenses the negative energy of the Evil Dragons down to one focal source.

Oob confirms the statement, saying that the Minus Energy Power Ball's threat is that its power is incredibly condensed.

Elder Kaioshin's explanation of how Yi Xing Long's universal destruction works.

• Elder Kai: "And, in the end, the world itself will rot. And it won't stop there. Soon, negative energy overflowing from that world will erode the surrounding celestial bodies until, entire galaxies will rot and disappear."

Check the bolded quote. The keyword here is overflowing, which means:

• To flow or run over the top, brim, or banks

Which, again, proves beyond doubt that the attack potency of the Minus Energy Ball is 3-A; it is merely concentrated and condensed down to a single planet, which then radiates small droplets of power that corrode other worlds, slowly depleting the power source. By the time the negative energy has been fully depleted, the entire universe has already been destroyed. Which brings me back to my original analogy of a condensed 1,000,000 that radiates 0.1 every second. Its energy output, however, is still 1,000,000.

Likewise, Gogeta purified the entirety of the condensed power with a kick, meaning he scales to it.

However, I disagree with Dark649's argument that Goku and the Spirit Bomb would scale, since Yi Xing Long's durability shouldn't be considered equal to his energy output with a specific attack. Gogeta was holding back against him and only let forth his true power once he kicked away and purified the Minus Ball.

 

[AKM sama]

You are misunderstanding me so I'll make myself clear.

It's not how you're making it to be. It is a long-term chain-reaction due to the overflow of Minus energy, which would at first take time to pollute/corrode/consume a single planet, then spread and move on to consume the neighboring planets, then star systems and then galaxies and so on.

In line with your example, the same 0.1 units of minus energy is affecting a star and then spreading and moving on to affect another and so on. There is no proof that Omega Shenron can employ universe level of destructive power (the minus energy is not destructive power) in battle in any way, shape or form. If he could, he would have destroyed the universe straight away.

The scan below will make it much clearer.

 

[AKM sama]

It's like saying a galaxy buster is universal because he can destroy all the galaxies of the universe one by one.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

You fully missed my argument and actually posted a scan that, in the literal Japanese, goes completely against your point - I will elaborate soon.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

> It's not how you're making it to be. It is a long-term chain-reaction due to the overflow of Minus energy, which would at first take time to pollute/corrode/consume a single planet, then spread and move on to consume the neighboring planets, then star systems and then galaxies and so on.

You both ignored my actual argument and misunderstood what was actually stated by the characters.

I didn't state that Yi XIng Long has an "immediate" universal area of effect. I said that he has Universal condensed attack potency, which this wiki treats as two separate things.

Elder Kaioshin's explanation in the original Japanese according to a fluent translator:

• "And, in the end, the world itself will rot. And it won't stop there. Soon, negative energy overflowing from that world will erode the surrounding celestial bodies until, entire galaxies will rot and disappear."

This argument regarding the negative energy expanding the more worlds it affects is nonsense that is not implied. Even Kepekley conceded to my point on this. What is actually stated is that the negative energy that will consume the universe all comes from the same source and the universal consumption is merely an aftershock of the overflow of negative energy condensed over the Earth.

Read what is stated carefully; the negative energy eroding the universe is merely a small pocket of negative energy dripping and overflowing FROM the original Minus Ball condensed over the Earth, as stated by the characters. I don't need to post the meaning of "overflowing" again, do I?

> In line with your example, the same 0.1 units of minus energy is affecting a star and then spreading and moving on to affect another and so on

The 0.1 units affects a star, then another 0.1 dripping from the original Minus affects another star, and so on, until the condensed energy has been fully depleted.

> There is no proof that Omega Shenron can employ universe level of destructive power (the minus energy is not destructive power) in battle in any way, shape or form. If he could, he would have destroyed the universe straight away.

This wiki doesn't go by area of effect, it goes by the condensed attack potency that the characters can output.

Attack Potency

• "The attack potency depends upon the energy output of the attack, not the area of effect of the attack."

So this is irrelevant, unless you want to downgrade everyone who doesn't have universal AoE.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

It's like saying a galaxy buster is universal because he can destroy all the galaxies of the universe one by one.

Awful comparison. Within Dragon Ball, a galaxy destroyer who threatens the destroy the universe will do so by using ki blasts that only have Galaxy level condensed energy output.

If I am a galaxy buster and I fire an energy blast on a galaxy, the energy blast will destroy the galaxy, but it will dissipate alongside the galaxy because its energy capacity will have been fully depleted after accomplishing said feat.

However, Yi Xing Long's Minus Energy Ball's energy source possesses condensed 3-A energy, therefore it will destroy a galaxy, then keep going - the Minus energy will only deplete/dissipate after it has destroyed the entire universe. This comparison just gives me another opportunity to show an example of condensed ki applications.

And luckily for me, there are 2 statements that outright reveal the Minus energy is heavily condensed.

 

[Kepekley23]

I have to acknowledge that WindGod's "condensed energy" argument is correct. We have never treated area of effect as a detriment if it's implied that the attack's concentrated/condensed power is of a certain level aside from its area of effect. Doing so now would be hypocritical.

But, still, 3-A GT is an extremely iffy subject and should be debated with everyone. I can personally say I'm pretty hard-headed set on 3-B GT, so I will steer.

 

[AKM sama]

• "And, in the end, the world itself will rot. And it won't stop there. Soon, negative energy overflowing from that world will erode the surrounding celestial bodies until, entire galaxies will rot and disappear.

I don't see how this statement is supporting your interpretation of the events. It simply says the same minus energy will corrode a planet, then go on to corrode another and so on. Just like how a planet buster can destroy a planet and go on to destroy another and so on.

I get you're trying to apply the law of conservation of energy but there is no mention that the minus energy depletes after each planet is corroded and works that way. Even if it does, it's not destructive energy, it just pollutes and rots the worlds.

P.S. I know what Attack Potency is.

 

[AKM sama]

Anyway, this proposition is big in itself and will need extensive staff input to pass. I'll suggest you make a new thread about it and invite knowledgeable members to comment. There aren't many staff members in this thread so it can't be evaluated properly and I am rather busy, so it's pointless to debate further. The main purpose of this thread is fulfilled too so I think it should be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we close this?

 

[WindGodAcheron]

> I don't see how this statement is supporting your interpretation of the events. It simply says the same minus energy will corrode a planet, then go on to corrode another and so on. Just like how a planet buster can destroy a planet and go on to destroy another and so on.

As I have highlighted time again and again:

• "Soon, negative energy overflowing from that world"

Meaning of overflowing:

• "to flow over the edge or brim of (a receptacle, container, etc.)."

The negaive energy concentrated on Earth would have radiated small pockets of negative energy to other worlds. The negative energy doesn't expand from world to world, it's merely the same overflow of energy from Earth's Minus Ball infecting all the other worlds with small fractions of that original energy.

I have already explained why that sort of analogy is flawed. A planet buster's energy dissipates after it destroys the planet due to the energy being depleted by the feat; while the Minus Ball's condensed energy only depletes after the entire universe has been destroyed; ergo, 3-A concentrated energy.

> I get you're trying to apply the law of conservation of energy but there is no mention that the minus energy depletes after each planet is corroded and works that way.

I am not trying to apply the law of conservation of energy, I'm rebuking it applying to begin with. Area of effect has no bearing on condensed energy of the Minus Power Ball, that was always my entire point.

I have provided the statements that the Minus Power Ball is heavily condensed negative energy, and have provided the statement that outright suggests the universal destruction is merely an aftershock of small pockets of negative energy depleting the original Minus Ball's source energy.

Repeating the analogy.

Minus Ball condensed energy = 1,000,000 = Condensed energy that is universal

Radiated energy = 0.1 = Star level radiated energy every second

 

[Dark649]

So should we close this?

I think it should be moved into another thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is somebody willing to start a new thread?

 

[Dark649]

I shall do so.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.