Dragon Ball GT/Non-Canon Revision

[Dark649]

If the at least looks like an high-ball and there is massive gap from the at least and 3-A, then just 3-B will be fine for SS4 Gogeta.

 

[Antvasima]

Since Promestein helped out with the Dragon Ball scaling last time, I would prefer her input first as well.

 

[Peter1129]

Bump

 

[DBZMLP12345]

If the Minus Energy Ball was gradually destroying Universe 7 by releeasing Small Amounts of Energy, then SSJ4 Gogeta goes instantly purifies the whole thing, wouldn't that make him At Least 3-B regardless of the apparent gap? Not to mention, with these calcs, Baby Arc SSJ Goku alone is Nigh 3-B already, then Goku surpasses his previous SSJ3 power in the Baby Arc in just SSJ in the Super 17/Shadow Dragon Arc, then can stake SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ4 and then Fusion on top of that,, not to mention Elder Kai was worried, so Omega's attack would've likely destroyed the Universe rather quickly, that should be relatively High in the 3-B tier right? Just wondering, then SSJ4 Gogeta apparently has more power then that in just his one finger

 

[Antvasima]

Has somebody asked Promestein and other staff members for input yet?

 

[Dark649]

Peter already asked to Prom.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Peter1129]

Bump

 

[DBZMLP12345]

So, did Prom reply back? Or is she going to reply on this Thread?

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know. Sorry.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Alright, just wondering

 

[AKM sama]

She was reminded a day ago by Nedge.

 

[Antvasima]

She has told me that she is busy IRL at the moment.

 

[Dark649]

I changed Ledgic and Oceanus Shenron profiles, for the other a little more imput would be needed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Dark649]

I might will change the other profiles later.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Dark649]

Added, the only thing remaining are the possible at least for SS4 Gogeta and the Universal Spirit Bomb.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Again, I agree with the At Least 3-B for SSJ4 Gogeta, Omega's attack was gradually destroying the Universe relatively quickly even by releasing small amounts of energy, Gogeta purified the whole thing with a kick and Gogeta's Finger>Omega, not to mention anyone Baby Arc SSJ Goku+ level is 3-B, the difference between SSJ4 Gogeta and Baby Arc SSJ Goku should be pretty big, not to mention the Universal Spirit Bomb being comprised off energy from throughout the whole Universe

 

[AKM sama]

3-B is a very wide tier.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM is correct. Check the Attack Potency page for the energy borders involved.

 

[DMUA]

Another thing I want to bring up before we go

Do we really need a key for Future Goku?

We basically don't know anything about him, it could be removed with absolutely no repercussions. The picture can stay of course, but we have no reason to have a key.

Also, I definitely don't think Gogeta or the Spirit bomb should be At least with how massive the tier is.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

Why is Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta not Universe level in energy output? He purified the whole of the Minus Energy Power Ball from Super Yi Xing Long (or, as you guys who grew up with the dub call him, "Omega Shenron"), which was stated by him to be "heavily condensed energy", hence why it destroys the universe via a chain reaction instead of instantaneously. However, the condensed energy output of the Minus Ball as a whole should still be Universal, and Gogeta purified the entirety of that energy.

Gogeta is the supreme god tier of the Toeiverse as a whole and was toying around throughout said fight, so him having the highest energy capacity with his attacks makes perfect sense.

 

[Dark649]

Because it was stated to be over time, Universe level Ap actually began with Battle of Gods and not GT.

 

[PaChi2]

3-B is a very wide tier.

^

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

I mean..if Omega Shenron had successfully gathered the amount of raw energy required to destroy everything in the universe and the issue is that it would take time to disperse (for whatever reason) then one-shot nulling it should be a 3-A feat in itself and especially given that we already have escalating degrees of 3-B, 'At least 3-B' SSJ4 Gogeta actually seems like a pretty safe rating and not the high-end.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

Because it was stated to be over time, Universe level Ap actually began with Battle of Gods and not GT.

I literally acknowledged that in my very post. It being overtime is not relevant because Yi Xing Long himself explained why it'd be overtime: the Minus Energy Power Ball is an attack that is heavily condensed in order to deal more damage. If the energy required to destroy the universe is 1,000,000 and the energy required to destroy a star is 0.1, Yi Xing Long's Minus Power Ball has a condensed energy of 1,000,000 and a radiated energy of 0.1 every second. Just to exemplify. However, Gogeta purified the condensed energy and not the radiated energy.

 

[Dark649]

Peter should change the OP since most of GT is dealt, the only part remaining is the final part of GT where i heard that Omega's Energy Ball, Gogeta and the Spirit Bomb should be all Universe level. I personally think that should be discussed in another thread, but neutral.

 

[PaChi2]

They are not crossing the x10^23 gap by any means. Like, at all.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

@Pachi

My argument is not based on multiplicative powerscaling, but a direct feat, so that doesn't apply.

 

[Peter1129]

Peter should change the OP since most of GT is dealt, the only part remaining is the final part of GT where i heard that Omega's Energy Ball, Gogeta and the Spirit Bomb should be all Universe level. I personally think that should be discussed in another thread, but neutral.

3-A GT god tiers seem like a pretty big topic. But I guess I'll change the op to discuss it here for now.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

I can make a thread for it.

I heavily disagree with the Spirit Bomb and Goku scaling though.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

@Dark649

Yi Xing Long*/Omega Shenron states that the Minus Energy Ball's negative energy is heavily condensed:

1

2

3

Oob states the same thing:

1

2

Which explains how the Minus Energy works. As Elder Kaioshin states, once the Minus Ball touches the ground, it infects the Earth and corrodes it - it then explodes, with the shockwave carrying small remnants of that energy to other worlds. However, as evidenced by the above quotes, the Minus Ball's condensed energy is of a level that can destroy U7 (since the Kaioshin Realm is located outside the universe and it was still stated to be threatened); it merely radiates smaller amounts of negative energy overtime.

Which brings me back to my former analogy:

If the baseline for Universe level is 1,000,000, then the Minus's condensed strength is 1,000,000, with pockets of 0.1 being radiated overtime until the original source negative energy is finally depleted. However, due to Gogeta purifying that 1,000,000, it doesn't pose a threat anymore.

 

[Kepekley23]

@WGA

• Episode: 62
• Time: 16:00
• Context: Omega Shenron threatens to destroy everything.
• Omega Shenron: "From now on, I am a god! A god of destruction, who will destroy all that there is! [] I will lay waste to the whole universe with my minus power!"

This statement is right before Elder Kaioshin's infamous explanation of the effects of Omega's Negative Energy, and Elder Kaioshin actually explains it because Kibitoshin heard Omega saying this through the crystal ball. "Lay waste to" literally means ruin; devastate.

It's unlikely that Omega has universal output. It's more like the Minus Energy spreads and grows the more worlds it destroys.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

Actually, the raw Japanese for the statement is:

• Õ«îþƺÒüá´¢í ÕåìÒü│ ÕøøµÿƒþÉâÒéÆÕÅûÒéèÞ¥╝ÒéôÒüáÒüôÒü¿Òü½ÒéêÒéèÔ×íõ┐║Òü» Õ«îÕà¿Òü½Òü¬ÒüúÒüƒ´¢í ÒüôÒéîÒüïÒéëÒü» õ┐║ÒüîþÑ×Òüá´¢íÔ×íõ¢òÒüºÒééÒüïÒéôÒüºÒéé ÒüÂÒüíÕúèÒüÖ þá┤ÕúèþÑ×Òüá´¢íÔ×íÕà¿Õ«çÕ«ÖÒéÆ ÒüôÒü«õ┐║Òü«´¥Å´¢▓´¥à´¢¢´¥è´¥ƒ´¥£´¢░Òüº þá┤ÕúèÒüùÕ░¢ÒüÅÒüùÒüªÒéäÒéï´¢í

Which literally translates to:

• "I'm perfect. By obtaining the four star ball I have become perfect. From this moment on, I am god. I'll destroy anything and everything. The god of destruction. I'll utterly destroy the entire universe with my minus power."

> It's unlikely that Omega has universal output. It's more like the Minus Energy spreads and grows the more worlds it destroys.

The original Japanese translation of Elder Kaioshin's statement contradicts this:

ÒüØÒüùÒüª ÒüùÒü¥ÒüäÒü½ÒéâÒüé Õ£░þÉâÞç¬õ¢ôÒüîÞàÉÒüúÒüªÒüùÒü¥Òüå´¢íÔ×í ÒüäÒéä ÒüØÒéîÒüáÒüæÒüºÒü»Òü¬Òüä´¢íÔ×íÒéäÒüîÒüª Õ£░þÉâÒüïÒéë ÒüéÒüÁÒéîÕç║ÒüùÒüƒ´¥Å´¢▓´¥à´¢¢´¢┤´¥ê´¥Ö´¢À´¥×´¢░Òü»Ô×íµ¼íÒÇàÒü¿ Õæ¿Õø▓Òü«µÿƒÒÇàÒéÆÒééµÁ©ÚúƒÒüùÔ×íÒéäÒüîÒüªÒü» Úèǵ▓│Õà¿õ¢ôÒüîÞàÉÒüúÒüª Òü¬ÒüÅÒü¬ÒüúÒüªÒüùÒü¥ÒüåÒüÿÒéâÒéìÒüå´¢íÔ×íÒüÿÒéâ… ÒüÿÒéâÒüé ÒüôÒü«þòîþÄïþÑ×þòîÒéé´¢íÔ×íÒüåÒéÇ´¢í þäíõ║ïÒüºÒü» µ©êÒü¥Òü¬ÒüäÒüÿÒéâÒéìÒüåÒü¬´¢íÔ×íÒüƒ… ÕñºÕñëÒüÿÒéâÒü¬ÒüäÒüºÒüÖÒüï´╝üÔ×íµù®ÒüÅÚÇâÒüÆÒü¥ÒüùÒéçÒüå´¢í

• Elder Kai: "And, in the end, the world itself will rot. And it won't stop there. Soon, negative energy overflowing from that world will erode the surrounding celestial bodies until, entire galaxies will rot and disappear."

• Kibitoshin: Then... then our world will be affected too?!

• Elder Kai: "Yes. Our world isn't safe [from it] either."

• Kibitoshin: "I... isn't this bad?! Let's run away quick!"

Elder Kaioshin states that the negative energy overflowing from Earth is what will cause the destruction of the surrounding galaxies, and, eventually, as stated by Kibitoshin, even the Kaioshin Realm itself - a planet located outside Universe 7's structure.

Check the meaning of "overflowing":

• be so full that the contents go over or extend above the sides.

So again, as I have stated, the Minus Energy affecting the Earth possesses condensed Universe level power; and it is merely radiating small pockets of energy for that effect. Check my analogy to understand why that is.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

IIRC in the subs Old Kai explained to Kibito Kai that Omega Shenron's negative energy was passively destroying the univese over time just from him existing, and I also remember that when Old Kai explained it to Kibitio Kai, Kibito Kai was scared and said that they had to run immediately, to which Old Kai replied by telling him that there was nowhere to run. And they were on the Sacred World of the Kais. I don't know if this is concrete enough to affect anything, but that suggests that the destruction of the universe would've occured extremely quickly if the person that could teleport to any place in universe 7 and wasn't even in the mortal realm, wanted to run immediately to escape the destruction. And that would scale him to the high ends of 3-B, and Gogeta even higher.

 

[Kepekley23]

I stand corrected on the Elder Kai part then.

However, I'll have to go out now for a few hours - and will soon come back. I still have some things to say.

 

[DMUA]

Which literally translates to:

no questions about the translation itself, but, "Literal" translations can get stuff like "All your base are belong to us"

Of course, this doesn't sound nearly as much of a grammarical middle finger, but with how idioms and other such linguistic structures are, "Literal" can make deification hit the fan fast with context specific scenarios like this.

 

[WindGodAcheron]

That's an awful example, not to say outright false. The "all your base are belong to us" meme is literally because the European version used wasn't up to par with the word-for-word, literal Japanese translation ("CATS has taken over all your bases")

Word-for-word translations are adjusted based on the context of the scene and the above translation was consulted with a fluent Japanese speaker. So that argument is completely inapplicable, as it often is.

 

[Kepekley23]

I get what you're arguing, but nothing really implies that Omega is able to disperse the condensed energy inside the Negative Karma Ball, even if the condensed power is Universal.