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Dragon Ball Cosmology Canon

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Guacamolefletcher said:
I don't get why people do this. It makes it seem like there's a lotta people in agreement, when it's just randoms with no voting rights 99% of the time.

Like, no disrespect, but this thread right now only has one staff voting against and it makes it seem like it's a landslide
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Blue people are never random, they are just part of this entire community, if they leave there will be nothing left of this Wiki,so yes, they are extremely important like everyone else here.
 
Fezzih_007 said:
I was trying to help...
Ok then.😔
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tenor.gif
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
It's so hopeful to see the (more established) DB supporters being reasonable.


If you think about it, OP is making a list of Akira being involved in the productions of the show. Or validating these other medias as "Dragon Ball"


This, however, is not definitive evidence that these separate media have canonical elements that are present in the manga, but just never been shown

In fact, that's counterintuitive, if he wants to inform something is canonical in his original work, why wouldn't he include references to these instances in said original work?

This comes from a misinterpretation of the evidence presented, I'll break them down
  • Akira Toriyama is involved in the productions of the anime
Okay.

This is absolutely meaningless for the argument OP is trying to make

Just because the author is involved with adaptations of their work, that doesn't, shouldn't, and wouldn't mean that said adaptation is canon, much less have canonical elements. Case in point, Akira said the anime is a different world than the manga. He can add stuff to that particular world without affecting his original work.
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He can. But that’s definitely not what happened. The model he made for his universe for the Anime affected the actual canon story (as seen in Super), as did the way the afterlife works (reincarnation of evil souls after purging them), etc. Hell, before he retconned it, he fully stated several times that he accepted Bardock and his special as a canon occurrence in his Manga. While it’s difficult to parse which is which, we know for a fact that Toriyama’s work on the Anime influenced the Manga’s World to some degree, or—In the case of the Afterlife, he fleshed out that world and then gave those details to the Anime, where it is the only place to appear.
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
  • Akira supports and validates the anime version
That's marketing for you baby. All he did was say both anime and manga are valid ways to enjoy the story. This means freaking NOTHING when it comes to deciding what's canon or not. He just said that both products are still in the spirits of Dragon Ball and what it stands for.
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This is absolutely true—To a limited extent. Validating work‘s spirit doesn’t make it more canon, yeah, but I do think it’s more than safe to say Toriyama’s assistance in the Anime can inform what happens in the Manga (and vice versa) given we know he specifically added details to the Anime that did not exist within the Manga. Such as Gregory. Most prominently, and obviously, the cosmology, the Kai’s, etc. All of which directly apply to the Manga World (as we’ve seen today.)
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
It's so hopeful to see the (more established) DB supporters being reasonable.


If you think about it, OP is making a list of Akira being involved in the productions of the show. Or validating these other medias as "Dragon Ball"


This, however, is not definitive evidence that these separate media have canonical elements that are present in the manga, but just never been shown

In fact, that's counterintuitive, if he wants to inform something is canonical in his original work, why wouldn't he include references to these instances in said original work?

This comes from a misinterpretation of the evidence presented, I'll break them down
  • Akira Toriyama is involved in the productions of the anime
Okay.

This is absolutely meaningless for the argument OP is trying to make

Just because the author is involved with adaptations of their work, that doesn't, shouldn't, and wouldn't mean that said adaptation is canon, much less have canonical elements. Case in point, Akira said the anime is a different world than the manga. He can add stuff to that particular world without affecting his original work.

  • Akira supports and validates the anime version
That's marketing for you baby. All he did was say both anime and manga are valid ways to enjoy the story. This means freaking NOTHING when it comes to deciding what's canon or not. He just said that both products are still in the spirits of Dragon Ball and what it stands for.

What else was there? Nothing?

All the evidence supported these two particular points, which are empty caskets that don't amount to nothing. Leaving the compiled evidence as nothing more than a leg for table that could never hold the weight of what it wanted to prove.

I disagree.
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Regarding your first point, the argument is that we can take elements from the anime and apply it from the manga. The reason why is because it’s stated Toriyama is actually involved with creating anime original episodes and that they’re intended to complement the original work. Also, there’s things from the anime and movies that have been used for the manga actually. For example, the macrocosm map was something that was intended for the anime and was later applied to manga guides and even seen in DBS Manga. So, we do actually see that concepts from the anime get utilize into the original work. Another quick example is the Bardock special movie which was outlined in the OP already.

The daizenshuu also elaborates and explains that when Toriyama was doing the anime original episodes he did it based off the concepts of the DB World that already exist. Then, the events being things that could actually happen. The way this is explained shows that even though they weren’t depicted in the manga the concepts that are shown can apply to the manga. Hence why we want to be able to use elements that aren’t contradictory and use them as supporting evidence similarly to how we currently treat DBZ Kakarot.
 
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Doesn't the Bardock evidence fall a bit flat when DB Minus and Super Broly were made by Toriyama to be the canon versions of History of Bardock? I get that Toei Bardock is shown in Kai and in the OG manga, but nowadays the Super version is treated as being the canon version of the character and the events which lead to Frieza wiping out the Saiyans.

Anyways I got to disagree with the CRT. Toriyama's involvement with and approval of the anime doesn't explicitly say anything about the anime being canon to the manga, especially when one of the statements in the OP about the movies has him mentioning that those events COULD'VE HAPPENED/COULD'VE BEEN. So yeah, I'm not really seeing a reason to agree with this.
 
RedReaper said:
He can. But that’s definitely not what happened. The model he made for his universe for the Anime affected the actual canon story (as seen in Super), as did the way the afterlife works (reincarnation of evil souls after purging them), etc. Hell, before he retconned it, he fully stated several times that he accepted Bardock and his special as a canon occurrence in his Manga. While it’s difficult to parse which is which, we know for a fact that Toriyama’s work on the Anime influenced the Manga’s World to some degree, or—In the case of the Afterlife, he fleshed out that world and then gave those details to the Anime, where it is the only place to appear.
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Finally someone I can actually have a conversation.

I mean, yeah. But do you honestly think we should extend these very particular instances to every single thing the anime has added to the story? I mean, we've established they're both different worlds as per Akira's own words, as for your own examples, these are the exception not the rule.
We can confirm Akira has reused some original elements he made for the anime work, but then what? What can we conclude from that? He liked some of the anime adaptation and brought it's concepts to the canon story, but it would be an exaggeration to say that this extends to other elements that he may not have appreciated as much.

I stand by my initial point, I think the fact Akira has worked on elements of the anime alone isn't enough proof that every single one of them should be canon. I think the examples you used are, in a more scientific way, outliers, where Toriyama really liked the adaptation's version and arbitrarily decided to add that to his original work (before reconning it).

I still think staff and writers had all the liberty in the world to add onto Toriyama's model, and only the things originally present in the model itself are going to stay similar. So I don't find validity in this argument.
RedReaper said:
This is absolutely true—To a limited extent. Validating work‘s spirit doesn’t make it more canon, yeah, but I do think it’s more than safe to say Toriyama’s assistance in the Anime can inform what happens in the Manga (and vice versa) given we know he specifically added details to the Anime that did not exist within the Manga. Such as Gregory. Most prominently, and obviously, the cosmology, the Kai’s, etc. All of which directly apply to the Manga World (as we’ve seen today.)
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Gregory is a bad example, since he is a contradictory element that's objectively not present in the manga. But I digress.

True, some elements were meant to be for both versions. But not all of them. I'd mention Grand Kai, but as you said, Hell is a better example.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
I disagree for Damage’s reasons, and don’t see this as sufficient evidence to consider the anime wholly canon to the manga.
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I think you are understanding it wrong, i don't want to merge the two works, but rather that this is a justification for what was previously accepted, so you will have to make another crt to decompose cosmology given the fact that this is just another justification for the anime's cosmology being canon to the Dragon Ball Multiverse.
 
I will put all those staff members who agreed with Damage to neutral, because they both don't understand what I really want here and until they give an opinion again i won't add they
 
Damage3245 said:
Is this seeking to combine Toei profiles with manga profiles? If that's the case then I am vehemently against this thread.
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Could you give your opinion back, from what i understand you are not understanding what i am mentioning, i don't want to do a profile merge.
 
Practically both the opponents and admin have not understood the purpose of a simple CRT and misinterpreted everything, when it was a simple addiction to what was previously accepted.

and this CRT was not to make the anime canon to the manga
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
Doesn't the Bardock evidence fall a bit flat when DB Minus and Super Broly were made by Toriyama to be the canon versions of History of Bardock? I get that Toei Bardock is shown in Kai and in the OG manga, but nowadays the Super version is treated as being the canon version of the character and the events which lead to Frieza wiping out the Saiyans.

Anyways I got to disagree with the CRT. Toriyama's involvement with and approval of the anime doesn't explicitly say anything about the anime being canon to the manga, especially when one of the statements in the OP about the movies has him mentioning that those events COULD'VE HAPPENED/COULD'VE BEEN. So yeah, I'm not really seeing a reason to agree with this.
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it could've also just been retconned

It's clear what version of Bardock this is


It doesn't even match up with super Bardock, so it's a clear retcon from DBS
 
omegabronic said:
......that doesn't cover my point at all, it is factually a fact that the manga had different events happening from the anime in the same arcs, thus they can't be canon to one another as the events were different


that is a manga? regardless, how can we know if it is accurate or contradictory without having the original, just show the original and translate it, there's no harm right?
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Omega, you were commenting against it, so i put it as disagree, next time just clarify what you want here.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Finally someone I can actually have a conversation.

I mean, yeah. But do you honestly think we should extend these very particular instances to every single thing the anime has added to the story? I mean, we've established they're both different worlds as per Akira's own words, as for your own examples, these are the exception not the rule.
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That’s not what is currently utilized or proposed, though. For example, when asked about using Toei Planet Vegeta/Plant/Tsufaru to get its size via comparing it to Earth in GT, it was pretty objectively decided by even some the people supporting this thread that this simply isn’t how it works. We can conclude broad strokes, but nitty gritty details like that are beyond us, and this Revision still treats them that way. And, obviously, I’m against any revisions that try to say they are totally identical.

A good example of how this would (and has worked) for some time is that we accept that Hell is a body in the afterlife that acts as a prison to those who died. However, while the broad strokes of it are identical back in Z compared to now with Super (with identical maps, no less), the EXACT SPECIFICS are different. (Instead of an infinite void for evildoers, it’s a multifaceted and contains Hell’s for “each planet.”)
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
We can confirm Akira has reused some original elements he made for the anime work, but then what? What can we conclude from that? He liked some of the anime adaptation and brought it's concepts to the canon story, but it would be an exaggeration to say that this extends to other elements that he may not have appreciated as much.
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But this is the exact opposite of what happened, short Bardock. It’s not like someone made something else up and he copied it (again, except Bardock). What EXPLICITLY happened is he was asked about his Manga’s Universe (ie, his CANON) and he Answered Questions and Drew Diagrams which were then ADAPTED into the Z-Anime. As in, he was asked canon information so they can use that for their filler stories.

And we pretty clearly see this was the case for many other elements (“I got scripts/ideas from Sensei,”).

Now, I won’t pretend we can figure out which is which beyond exact records given to us by Producers, Toriyama, Artists, etc. But the common statement is most came from him. So I think it’s pretty fair to use the Anime to inform things like we do Kakarot, unless it’s an outright contradiction (like the Origin of the Dragon Balls in OGDB), is too specific in certain ways we can’t utilize (The Toei Size of Planet Vegeta), or explicitly made by someone else, (Z Bardock, History of Trunks.)
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
I stand by my initial point, I think the fact Akira has worked on elements of the anime alone isn't enough proof that every single one of them should be canon. I think the examples you used are, in a more scientific way, outliers, where Toriyama really liked the adaptation's version and arbitrarily decided to add that to his original work (before reconning it).
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I don’t think all of them should be “canon.” As in, literally what objectively happened. I think the Anime should be supplementary to the Manga.
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
I still think staff and writers had all the liberty in the world to add onto Toriyama's model, and only the things originally present in the model itself are going to stay similar. So I don't find validity in this argument.
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It’s uncertain. While we know certain things were penned by him and affect the modern era, like the Cosmology, or the Kai’s, it’s impossible to say how much was Toriyama and how much was others. And that’s not getting into the fact Toriyama is forgetful, and has even said he won’t remember making a given thing in later interviews, but we have record of him having done so from himself or others in older ones (ironically making older, not newer, information for reliable testimonies).

I mean, the best example of this is that he literally made something as minor as an airport apart of his Heavenly Cosmology. This is direct, canon info given by him. But it’s NOWHERE to be seen in the Manga, or in Super. Which means it not appearing isn’t a slight against its canonicity—It’s at best a slight against Toriyama not ever delving into that side of his world on paper. Or not remembering.
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Gregory is a bad example, since he is a contradictory element that's objectively not present in the manga. But I digress.
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I mention Gregory because he appeared in the DBS Anime, which is one of the two canon continuations of the Original Series. Meaning a Toriyama idea not present in the original, added by him retroactively, has been faithfully added into his Sequel Series. But it is true it’s not as ironclad as Heaven.
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
True, some elements were meant to be for both versions. But not all of them. I'd mention Grand Kai, but as you said, Hell is a better example.
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Sure, but that’s not disproving that we can use the Anime as supplementary materials. Just that it’s a case by case basis. Which already has been allowed for other things that directly has Toriyama’s influence and stories directly penned by him, but is not “totally,” him. That said, the real question is trying to judge what is Toriyama and what is Hogwash.
 
This is not to disparage anyone, I apologize in advance if I led you to believe that, but.... Seriously, the only argument for disagreeing with CRT is to misunderstand the OP's intentions? For those who think the OP is proposing that the anime is canon to the manga, please remove that idea. That was never the OP's intention, it's just adding extra evidence for the composite cosmology we use today. For those who say it's not, have you guys been keeping up with the DB updates? Or have you taken the trouble to read the cosmological blog on the DB page profile? Because honestly neither mention is noticeable.
 
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Guacamolefletcher said:
it could've also just been retconned

It's clear what version of Bardock this is


It doesn't even match up with super Bardock, so it's a clear retcon from DBS
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Yeah and that's the issue with using Bardock, because back then it was based off the History of Bardock movie but that's long since been reconned with Minus and Dragon Ball Super.
 
OblivionCiffer2202 said:
Esto no es para menospreciar a nadie, me disculpo de antemano si le hice creer eso, pero.... En serio, ¿el único argumento para no estar de acuerdo con la CRT es malinterpretar las intenciones del OP? Para aquellos que piensan que el OP propone que el anime sea canon para el manga, eliminen esa idea. Esa nunca fue la intención del OP, solo agrega evidencia adicional para la cosmología compuesta que usamos hoy. Para aquellos que dicen que no, ¿se han mantenido al día con las actualizaciones de la base de datos? ¿O te has tomado la molestia de leer el blog cosmológico en el perfil de la página DB? Porque sinceramente ninguna mención se nota.
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english pls
 
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