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Doom Eternal - The Ancient Gods - Part Two CRT (Spoilers Ahead)
- Thread starter Firestorm808
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Following for now, but I was asked to check this out.
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It wouldn't contradict EVERYTHING, some pieces obviously still fit into the story, just with a bit of adjustment. Like, we already knew that The Father at one point fought Davoth, but now we can realize that The Father was overthrowing his rule and not the other way around.
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We pretty much have to figure out what the Codex were before being ****** with by the Seraph.
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...no it wasn't? What? That's genuinely a blatant lie.
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- Thread starter
- #88
I updated the OP.
For the record, Doom Slayer didn't fight a weakened Davoth or an avatar.
For the record, Doom Slayer didn't fight a weakened Davoth or an avatar.
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- Thread starter
- #89
The only thing that was changed was who created/betrayed what/who, why and in what order. There is no reason for them to lie about how powerful the first being and the Dark Lord were.
It's still true that Vega, a Primeval of the Maykrs, defeated Davoth. So, the statement about only a Primeval or stronger being able to defeat Devoth still holds true.
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Hellbeast
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It's not so simple
If Davoth is the immortal creator of all things who could create the Makyrs that gained a means of Immortality while also being why Slayer gets his Immortality (thanks to being a creation of his via the Divinity Machine) then he can't be corrupted by a need of preserving his creations.
Likewise the Father can't strike him down because of this and it's unknown if he would have devoured other primevals or even used the Demonic Crucible in the past before being struck down and imprisoned. It also calls into question whether Davoth consumed other universes at all as the Codexes for TAG 1 claimed.
Basically Eternal's story sucks ass and retconned literally everything we had in the first DLC so I'm strongly against using anything from it here.
Elaborate
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- #91
Regarding Devoth's state, this is what the Luminarium does.
Life spheres contain the memory, intelligence, will, and essential nature of a being's consciousness. Only the most powerful, god-life, indomitable minds can survive the incredible stresses of having their essence turned into a life sphere, and fewer still can bear the agony of corporal resurrection. It is only in the Luminarium that the resurrection can take place and only the Seraphs that can give a life sphere the return of its original form, calling on the engines of creation to harness the great powers that lay between the dimensions.
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- #93
His original form is his full power.
Hellbeast
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And is there a statement for that or are we assuming?
Arguing it's his original form is fine but it doesn't seen to negate the idea the Dark Lord was weakened as he says and he never mentions he regained that power (only that he would unmake all things by unquantifiable means)
Arguing it's his original form is fine but it doesn't seen to negate the idea the Dark Lord was weakened as he says and he never mentions he regained that power (only that he would unmake all things by unquantifiable means)
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- Thread starter
- #95
Davoth was only weakened when he was reduced to a life sphere.
Hellbeast
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Ok and where is the actual statement he regained his full power other then "oh well he got his shape back"?
That's frankly not even reason to say he's back to the Multiversal God he once was and I'm tempted to label that stuff an outlier since we see nothing near to that anywhere else in the game
That's frankly not even reason to say he's back to the Multiversal God he once was and I'm tempted to label that stuff an outlier since we see nothing near to that anywhere else in the game
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- #97
Why are you saying that Davoth's original physical form is in a weakened state when losing his physical form was the weakened state in the first place?
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- #99
The only thing that Davoth lost was his physical form, and then he got it back.
We're talking about Davoth. We aren't on the Slayer scaling topic yet.
We're talking about Davoth. We aren't on the Slayer scaling topic yet.
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Davoth and the father fought each other but ok
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It is stated that having a physical form is peak power, and strongly implied that lacking such form results in inferior influence.
And a full-powered Primeval is needed to slay the Dark Lord if he were ever reincarnated in physical form.
The means of immortality for the Slayer is empowering him with a piece of Davoth. This is like asking "Why can't Davoth make everyone a Primeval?"; because a universe can't contain the strength of multiple of them, they are not sustaining their universe and it can exist without them, but their strength is just too great for a universe to have multiple of them.
Davoth either consumed other universes, or the Maykrs predicted that he will since they concluded that he is a threat to all creation.
The stories of many verses suck; we have to use their lore regardless of how we feel about them.
| Even without a physical form the Dark Lord can still have a powerful influence, especially against ones susceptible to corruption. ~The Tainted Prophecy |
And a full-powered Primeval is needed to slay the Dark Lord if he were ever reincarnated in physical form.
| If it came to pass that the Dark Lord were ever reincarnated in physical form only another Primeval, or something more powerful, could slay him. Once vanquished in this manner, the Dark Lord could no longer rule Hell. Stripped of a Primeval's bindings to the realm it was forged in, it would be scattered across the stars. Any denizens of Hell not inside the realm's borders would die as they lost their connection to the very reality The Father designed them for. ~Book of the Seraphs - Part XI |
The Maykr's didn't want to share the means of immortality (either Life Sphere technology; which can only be used by a few individuals with powerful minds, or Argent Energy; which requires the souls of inhabitants of other universes as fuel) as they considered the knowledge too dangerous. They decided that Davoth is an eventual threat and betrayed him.
The means of immortality for the Slayer is empowering him with a piece of Davoth. This is like asking "Why can't Davoth make everyone a Primeval?"; because a universe can't contain the strength of multiple of them, they are not sustaining their universe and it can exist without them, but their strength is just too great for a universe to have multiple of them.
Davoth either consumed other universes, or the Maykrs predicted that he will since they concluded that he is a threat to all creation.
The stories of many verses suck; we have to use their lore regardless of how we feel about them.
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It was after the father took Davoth’s power of creation, they did battle on top of the temple and the father won then took away his physical form by making Davoth into a sphere.
Hellbeast
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I mean it's practically the same discussion since it only scales to Davoth, Father and Slayer
Hellbeast
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Ok there's a statement I can get behind
Except if we're using the lore of the Ancient Gods Part 1 there are multiple Primevals across the Doom Universe and I can't recall anything saying multiple Primevals can't exist together.
Especially since we see Slayer seems to be on par with the Primordials, the Dark Lord became active and there's the third one we haven't met as well as the Ancient Gods.
I'd also like citation for the "Multiple Primordials = Universal chaos" claim
That's the thing though, the only source for Davoth himself slaying Gods and consuming universes is from TAG 1, which was horribly retconned by the sequel DLC so it's kinda hard to say how applicable it really is
I'm not discussing quality, I'm discussing how the lore flat out isn't what we were presented in TAG 1, in which case we'd have to go with the newer material's take on matters.
And since most of it undoes what we had before...;.
That's my thing though, if Davoth already had his power to create stolen from him, why the Jekkad are we saying he'd still be able to have Multiversal powers?.
Hellbeast
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Agreed, we need to know what the current lore says
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What a Primeval is has been defined in the first DLC:
The codex can be read in the Doom wiki
doom.fandom.com
TAGII codices are mixed-in with the Doom Eternal entries.
| Davoth was a Primeval, one of The Father's first gods, and of such strength that each realm could contain only one. ~Book of the Seraph - Part I |
The codex can be read in the Doom wiki
Codex
The Codex is a series of entries for background information in Doom (2016) and Doom Eternal. Environments Database UAC Personnel Weapons Monsters Artifacts Codex/Story of Earth Codex/Story of the Sentinels Codex/Story of Hell Codex/Story of the Maykrs Codex/Book of the Seraphs Codex/Demons...
doom.fandom.com
TAGII codices are mixed-in with the Doom Eternal entries.
Hellbeast
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That's the thing tho
If only one Primeval can safely inhabit a realm why do we see no adverse effects to Slayer and Davoth coexisting in Hell for a short time?
There's also no mention of them being able to do this outside of that codex
Ah didn't realise they would be added already.The codex can be read in the Doom wiki
Codex
The Codex is a series of entries for background information in Doom (2016) and Doom Eternal. Environments Database UAC Personnel Weapons Monsters Artifacts Codex/Story of Earth Codex/Story of the Sentinels Codex/Story of Hell Codex/Story of the Maykrs Codex/Book of the Seraphs Codex/Demons...
TAGII codices are mixed-in with the Doom Eternal entries.
EDIT: Actually those are from TAG 1 so we already have those
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It is about the Primeval's strength rather than something passive about their beings.
Hell is unique compared to other realms as it is connected to all realms created by Davoth and the Father, and can consume them (as an extension of the Dark Lord's power according to Hugo).
We should also keep in mind that there might be gameplay-story segregation outside of cutscenes, similar to the Icon of Sin being damaged by conventional weapons. Originally, there were plans for Davoth to take the form of a giant dragon, but there was no time to design a boss battle this complex.
Actually added them in myself.
The TAGII entries were not labeled in the main codex page, but I labeled them just now. Check again:
Codex
The Codex is a series of entries for background information in Doom (2016) and Doom Eternal. Environments Database UAC Personnel Weapons Monsters Artifacts Codex/Story of Earth Codex/Story of the Sentinels Codex/Story of Hell Codex/Story of the Maykrs Codex/Book of the Seraphs Codex/Demons...
doom.fandom.com
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Hellbeast
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Except the phrasing mentions that multiple Titans can't exist together, implying it's a passive thing rather then by combat
Otherwise it'd surely mention they are only threats to realms via their combat
True but gameplay is all we have for the Dark Lord fight unlike the Icon where we know it had to be the Crucible which finished the World Ending Titan
Lol I'll take a look thenActually added them in myself.
The TAGII entries were not labeled in the main codex page, but I labeled them just now. Check again:
Codex
The Codex is a series of entries for background information in Doom (2016) and Doom Eternal. Environments Database UAC Personnel Weapons Monsters Artifacts Codex/Story of Earth Codex/Story of the Sentinels Codex/Story of Hell Codex/Story of the Maykrs Codex/Book of the Seraphs Codex/Demons...
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Hugo Martin on the stream said that Davoth that's just like the Slayer Primitive and only another primitive can defeat the primitive
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out of curiosity, does the multiverse creation have a timeframe? Im aware that isnt necessary for tier 2, but just curious if we are given one
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we don't have a time frame just that it was made one day
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honestly lets disscuse the whole slayer to davoth 2-B scaling in a crt specificly for it
but my argument will be make them both at least 7-B(icon scaling) possibly 2-B/2-A(codex statements) as lets be honest the lore is convoluted as all hell
but my argument will be make them both at least 7-B(icon scaling) possibly 2-B/2-A(codex statements) as lets be honest the lore is convoluted as all hell
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Pun not intended.
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Bump
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- Thread starter
- #120
For the summary that I gave in the OP, which parts do you believe need to be changed?
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