Doom Eternal - The Ancient Gods - Part Two CRT (Spoilers Ahead)

[Hellbeast]

Does the tidbit of the Primevals come from 1 or 2

TAG 2 seems to retcon everything about 1 so what it says about Davoth seems false

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Following for now, but I was asked to check this out.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Does the tidbit of the Primevals come from 1 or 2

TAG 2 seems to retcon everything about 1 so what it says about Davoth seems false

It wouldn't contradict EVERYTHING, some pieces obviously still fit into the story, just with a bit of adjustment. Like, we already knew that The Father at one point fought Davoth, but now we can realize that The Father was overthrowing his rule and not the other way around.

 

[Hellbeast]

But it would contradict 90 percent of what we know since the story was falsified by Davoth's influence over the Makyrs (plot hole there but idk)

I also kinda hate the multiverse shit since we don't see them do anything near this in game but that's life

 

[Axxtentacle]

We pretty much have to figure out what the Codex were before being ****** with by the Seraph.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Wasn't the Davoth that fought the slayer an avatar or something? I don't see why the avatar would scale to 2-B

Yes

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yes

...no it wasn't? What? That's genuinely a blatant lie.

 

[Firestorm808]

I updated the OP.

For the record, Doom Slayer didn't fight a weakened Davoth or an avatar.

 

[Firestorm808]

Does the tidbit of the Primevals come from 1 or 2

TAG 2 seems to retcon everything about 1 so what it says about Davoth seems false

The only thing that was changed was who created/betrayed what/who, why and in what order. There is no reason for them to lie about how powerful the first being and the Dark Lord were.

It's still true that Vega, a Primeval of the Maykrs, defeated Davoth. So, the statement about only a Primeval or stronger being able to defeat Devoth still holds true.

 

[Hellbeast]

The only thing that was changed was who created/betrayed what/who, why and in what order. There is no reason for them to lie about how powerful the first being and the Dark Lord were.

It's still true that Vega, a Primeval of the Maykrs, defeated Davoth. So, the statement about only a Primeval or stronger being able to defeat Devoth still holds true.

It's not so simple

If Davoth is the immortal creator of all things who could create the Makyrs that gained a means of Immortality while also being why Slayer gets his Immortality (thanks to being a creation of his via the Divinity Machine) then he can't be corrupted by a need of preserving his creations.

Likewise the Father can't strike him down because of this and it's unknown if he would have devoured other primevals or even used the Demonic Crucible in the past before being struck down and imprisoned. It also calls into question whether Davoth consumed other universes at all as the Codexes for TAG 1 claimed.

Basically Eternal's story sucks ass and retconned literally everything we had in the first DLC so I'm strongly against using anything from it here.

I updated the OP.

For the record, Doom Slayer didn't fight a weakened Davoth or an avatar.

Elaborate

 

[Firestorm808]

Elaborate

Regarding Devoth's state, this is what the Luminarium does.

Life spheres contain the memory, intelligence, will, and essential nature of a being's consciousness. Only the most powerful, god-life, indomitable minds can survive the incredible stresses of having their essence turned into a life sphere, and fewer still can bear the agony of corporal resurrection. It is only in the Luminarium that the resurrection can take place and only the Seraphs that can give a life sphere the return of its original form, calling on the engines of creation to harness the great powers that lay between the dimensions.

 

[Hellbeast]

I'm not seeing where it says he was restored to his full, multiversal power. Could you explain further?

 

[Firestorm808]

His original form is his full power.

 

[Hellbeast]

And is there a statement for that or are we assuming?

Arguing it's his original form is fine but it doesn't seen to negate the idea the Dark Lord was weakened as he says and he never mentions he regained that power (only that he would unmake all things by unquantifiable means)

 

[Firestorm808]

Davoth was only weakened when he was reduced to a life sphere.

 

[Hellbeast]

Ok and where is the actual statement he regained his full power other then "oh well he got his shape back"?

That's frankly not even reason to say he's back to the Multiversal God he once was and I'm tempted to label that stuff an outlier since we see nothing near to that anywhere else in the game

 

[Firestorm808]

Why are you saying that Davoth's original physical form is in a weakened state when losing his physical form was the weakened state in the first place?

 

[Hellbeast]

Because you haven't provided evidence other then his physical form being retained of him being restored.

You also haven't proven why we should use this at all when Slayer's best feat before this was Town

 

[Firestorm808]

The only thing that Davoth lost was his physical form, and then he got it back.

We're talking about Davoth. We aren't on the Slayer scaling topic yet.

 

[DTG499]

The Slayer would not scale to 2-A Father no

Davoth and the father fought each other but ok

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

It is stated that having a physical form is peak power, and strongly implied that lacking such form results in inferior influence.

Even without a physical form the Dark Lord can still have a powerful influence, especially against ones susceptible to corruption. ~The Tainted Prophecy

And a full-powered Primeval is needed to slay the Dark Lord if he were ever reincarnated in physical form.

If it came to pass that the Dark Lord were ever reincarnated in physical form only another Primeval, or something more powerful, could slay him. Once vanquished in this manner, the Dark Lord could no longer rule Hell. Stripped of a Primeval's bindings to the realm it was forged in, it would be scattered across the stars. Any denizens of Hell not inside the realm's borders would die as they lost their connection to the very reality The Father designed them for. ~Book of the Seraphs - Part XI

It's not so simple

If Davoth is the immortal creator of all things who could create the Makyrs that gained a means of Immortality while also being why Slayer gets his Immortality (thanks to being a creation of his via the Divinity Machine) then he can't be corrupted by a need of preserving his creations.

Likewise the Father can't strike him down because of this and it's unknown if he would have devoured other primevals or even used the Demonic Crucible in the past before being struck down and imprisoned. It also calls into question whether Davoth consumed other universes at all as the Codexes for TAG 1 claimed.

Basically Eternal's story sucks ass and retconned literally everything we had in the first DLC so I'm strongly against using anything from it here.

The Maykr's didn't want to share the means of immortality (either Life Sphere technology; which can only be used by a few individuals with powerful minds, or Argent Energy; which requires the souls of inhabitants of other universes as fuel) as they considered the knowledge too dangerous. They decided that Davoth is an eventual threat and betrayed him.

The means of immortality for the Slayer is empowering him with a piece of Davoth. This is like asking "Why can't Davoth make everyone a Primeval?"; because a universe can't contain the strength of multiple of them, they are not sustaining their universe and it can exist without them, but their strength is just too great for a universe to have multiple of them.

Davoth either consumed other universes, or the Maykrs predicted that he will since they concluded that he is a threat to all creation.

The stories of many verses suck; we have to use their lore regardless of how we feel about them.

 

[DTG499]

Wasn't that Eons ago and Davoth had his power stolen

It was after the father took Davoth’s power of creation, they did battle on top of the temple and the father won then took away his physical form by making Davoth into a sphere.

 

[Hellbeast]

The only thing that Davoth lost was his physical form, and then he got it back.

We're talking about Davoth. We aren't on the Slayer scaling topic yet.

I mean it's practically the same discussion since it only scales to Davoth, Father and Slayer

 

[DTG499]

Let’s gather up the codexes so we can pick them apart

 

[Hellbeast]

It is explicitly stated that the Life Sphere form is weaker than his physical form, and results in weaker influence.

Even without a physical form the Dark Lord can still have a powerful influence, especially against ones susceptible to corruption. ~The Tainted Prophecy

And a full-powered Primeval is needed to slay the Dark Lord if he were ever reincarnated in physical form.

If it came to pass that the Dark Lord were ever reincarnated in physical form only another Primeval, or something more powerful, could slay him. Once vanquished in this manner, the Dark Lord could no longer rule Hell. Stripped of a Primeval's bindings to the realm it was forged in, it would be scattered across the stars. Any denizens of Hell not inside the realm's borders would die as they lost their connection to the very reality The Father designed them for. ~Book of the Seraphs - Part XI

Ok there's a statement I can get behind

The Maykr's didn't want to share the means of immortality (either Life Sphere technology; which can only be used by a few individuals with powerful minds, or Argent Energy; which requires the souls of inhabitants of other universes as fuel) as they considered the knowledge too dangerous. They decided that Davoth is an eventual threat and betrayed him.

The means of immortality for the Slayer is empowering him with a piece of Davoth. This is like asking "Why can't Davoth make everyone a Primeval?"; because a universe can't contain the strength of multiple of them, they are not sustaining their universe and it can exist without them, but their strength is just too great for a universe to have multiple of them.

Except if we're using the lore of the Ancient Gods Part 1 there are multiple Primevals across the Doom Universe and I can't recall anything saying multiple Primevals can't exist together.

Especially since we see Slayer seems to be on par with the Primordials, the Dark Lord became active and there's the third one we haven't met as well as the Ancient Gods.

I'd also like citation for the "Multiple Primordials = Universal chaos" claim

Davoth either consumed other universes, or the Maykrs predicted that he will since they concluded that he is a threat to all creation.

That's the thing though, the only source for Davoth himself slaying Gods and consuming universes is from TAG 1, which was horribly retconned by the sequel DLC so it's kinda hard to say how applicable it really is

The stories of many verses suck; we have to use their lore regardless of how we feel about them.

I'm not discussing quality, I'm discussing how the lore flat out isn't what we were presented in TAG 1, in which case we'd have to go with the newer material's take on matters.

And since most of it undoes what we had before...;.

It was after the father took Davoth’s power of creation, they did battle on top of the temple and the father won then took away his physical form by making Davoth into a sphere.

That's my thing though, if Davoth already had his power to create stolen from him, why the Jekkad are we saying he'd still be able to have Multiversal powers?.

 

[Hellbeast]

Let’s gather up the codexes so we can pick them apart

Agreed, we need to know what the current lore says

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

What a Primeval is has been defined in the first DLC:

Davoth was a Primeval, one of The Father's first gods, and of such strength that each realm could contain only one. ~Book of the Seraph - Part I

The codex can be read in the Doom wiki

Codex

The Codex is a series of entries for background information in Doom (2016) and Doom Eternal. Environments Database UAC Personnel Weapons Monsters Artifacts Codex/Story of Earth Codex/Story of the Sentinels Codex/Story of Hell Codex/Story of the Maykrs Codex/Book of the Seraphs Codex/Demons...

doom.fandom.com

TAGII codices are mixed-in with the Doom Eternal entries.

 

[DTG499]

Yeah just as remembered doomguy was empowered by a piece of the dark lord’s sphere.

 

[Hellbeast]

What a Primeval is has been defined in the first DLC:

Davoth was a Primeval, one of The Father's first gods, and of such strength that each realm could contain only one. ~Book of the Seraph - Part I

That's the thing tho
If only one Primeval can safely inhabit a realm why do we see no adverse effects to Slayer and Davoth coexisting in Hell for a short time?
There's also no mention of them being able to do this outside of that codex

The codex can be read in the Doom wiki

Codex

The Codex is a series of entries for background information in Doom (2016) and Doom Eternal. Environments Database UAC Personnel Weapons Monsters Artifacts Codex/Story of Earth Codex/Story of the Sentinels Codex/Story of Hell Codex/Story of the Maykrs Codex/Book of the Seraphs Codex/Demons...

doom.fandom.com

TAGII codices are mixed-in with the Doom Eternal entries.

Ah didn't realise they would be added already.
EDIT: Actually those are from TAG 1 so we already have those

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

That's the thing tho
If only one Primeval can safely inhabit a realm why do we see no adverse effects to Slayer and Davoth coexisting in Hell for a short time?
There's also no mention of them being able to do this outside of that codex

It is about the Primeval's strength rather than something passive about their beings.
Hell is unique compared to other realms as it is connected to all realms created by Davoth and the Father, and can consume them (as an extension of the Dark Lord's power according to Hugo).
We should also keep in mind that there might be gameplay-story segregation outside of cutscenes, similar to the Icon of Sin being damaged by conventional weapons. Originally, there were plans for Davoth to take the form of a giant dragon, but there was no time to design a boss battle this complex.

Ah didn't realise they would be added already.
EDIT: Actually those are from TAG 1 so we already have those

Actually added them in myself.
The TAGII entries were not labeled in the main codex page, but I labeled them just now. Check again:

Codex

The Codex is a series of entries for background information in Doom (2016) and Doom Eternal. Environments Database UAC Personnel Weapons Monsters Artifacts Codex/Story of Earth Codex/Story of the Sentinels Codex/Story of Hell Codex/Story of the Maykrs Codex/Book of the Seraphs Codex/Demons...

doom.fandom.com

 

[MicDaniel]

I would like to state that the Slayer himself was empowered by a piece of Davoths Essence and that in the Recent Live stream with Hugo, He repeats the Statement Made in the Books of the Seraph "Only another Primeval can defeat Davoth."

 

[Hellbeast]

It is about the Primeval's strength rather than something passive about their beings.
Hell is unique compared to other realms as it is connected to all realms created by Davoth and the Father, and can consume them (as an extension of the Dark Lord's power according to Hugo).

Except the phrasing mentions that multiple Titans can't exist together, implying it's a passive thing rather then by combat
Otherwise it'd surely mention they are only threats to realms via their combat

We should also keep in mind that there might be gameplay-story segregation outside of cutscenes, similar to the Icon of Sin being damaged by conventional weapons. Originally, there were plans for Davoth to take the form of a giant dragon, but to design a boss battle this complex.

True but gameplay is all we have for the Dark Lord fight unlike the Icon where we know it had to be the Crucible which finished the World Ending Titan

Actually added them in myself.
The TAGII entries were not labeled in the main codex page, but I labeled them just now. Check again:

Codex

The Codex is a series of entries for background information in Doom (2016) and Doom Eternal. Environments Database UAC Personnel Weapons Monsters Artifacts Codex/Story of Earth Codex/Story of the Sentinels Codex/Story of Hell Codex/Story of the Maykrs Codex/Book of the Seraphs Codex/Demons...

doom.fandom.com

Lol I'll take a look then

 

[PavilVers]

Does the tidbit of the Primevals come from 1 or 2

TAG 2 seems to retcon everything about 1 so what it says about Davoth seems false

Hugo Martin on the stream said that Davoth that's just like the Slayer Primitive and only another primitive can defeat the primitive

 

[Cyberblader90]

out of curiosity, does the multiverse creation have a timeframe? Im aware that isnt necessary for tier 2, but just curious if we are given one

 

[Sir_sun_man]

out of curiosity, does the multiverse creation have a timeframe? Im aware that isnt necessary for tier 2, but just curious if we are given one

we don't have a time frame just that it was made one day

 

[Sir_sun_man]

honestly lets disscuse the whole slayer to davoth 2-B scaling in a crt specificly for it

but my argument will be make them both at least 7-B(icon scaling) possibly 2-B/2-A(codex statements) as lets be honest the lore is convoluted as all hell

 

[MicDaniel]

honestly lets disscuse the whole slayer to davoth 2-B scaling in a crt specificly for it

but my argument will be make them both at least 7-B(icon scaling) possibly 2-B/2-A(codex statements) as lets be honest the lore is convoluted as all hell

Pun not intended.

 

[DTG499]

We have very straight forward retcons from the dlc and lore from the main campaign that isn’t mentioned from the dlc. We even have statements saying which parts of the lore aren’t valid anymore. I will try and piece the main points tomorrow.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

We have very straight forward retcons from the dlc and lore from the main campaign that isn’t mentioned from the dlc. We even have statements saying which parts of the lore aren’t valid anymore. I will try and piece the main points tomorrow.

For the summary that I gave in the OP, which parts do you believe need to be changed?