Doflamingo and Luffy vs (Alive) Madara and Hashirama

[CinCameron20]

Edit to rules:

Madara now has access to Kurama due to the Doflamingo and Luffy upgrade***

Luffy now has access to Gear 4th due to Kurama being added to the fight.

Doflamingo and Luffy can not use CoC in ANY WAY DURING THIS FIGHT

Genjutsu (excluding Izanagi alone) is inactive due to controversy.

^Those three rules will be used throughout all 3 rounds. Their restriction with NOT be lifted at any time.

Battleground: Dressrosa -- Hashirama and Madara have both become familier with the layout of the Island before engaging Doflamingo and Luffy.

Both parties have incentives to work together without complaining (so no Doflamingo or Madara betrayal).

Both parties also have relative basic knowledge on their enemys' abilities (Doflamingo and Luffy knowing that Madara uses fire and Hashirama using wood style while H + M know that D uses threads and L has a rubber-like body).

Doflamingo uses Bird Cage and Black Knight initially and Luffy starts fighting seriously with his 2nd Gear hawk abilities.

Hashirama starts with his Wooden Golem and Madara uses his Susanoo.

Gear 4th is allowed and Hashirama's Sage mode is allowed, of course.

Victory via Death of opponents

Edit:

Round 1: Villain vs Villain and Hero vs Hero

Doflamingo vs Madara (Votes: 5 to 0)

Luffy vs Hashirama (Sage mode allowed, Luffy will not be fatigued while using Gear 4th since he'd be at a huge disadvantage if True Thousand Hands is allowed but he'd only be able to fight with Gear 4th for 20 minutes) (Votes: 1 to 3)

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Round 2: Hero vs Villai

Doflamingo vs Hashirama (Votes: 2 to 2)

Luffy vs Madara (Votes: 3 to 1)

Round 3: 2v2

Doflamingo and Luffy vs Madara and Hashirama


Doflamingo and Luffy votes: 5 Inconclusive: 1 Madara and Hashirama votes: 4


Madara and Hashirama


Luffy and Doflamingo

 

[Gnomishness]

I feel like the Susanoo and the Wood golem would be capable of overpowering Luffy and Doflamigo in a straight fight, partially due to their Regenerationn, partially due to their sheer size and power. It might be close, but in tedium, Hashirama and Madara would logically work better together than Luffy and Doffy would.

Sure, the ninja's actual forms would need to be covered at all times and are liable to get one-shot while out in the open, but they have never showed any particular vulnerability to an attempt and getting picked off while their abilities are out so we can assume they do well at protecting themselves like that... Certainly If the enemy doesn't quite know where to look for them.

In mindless ground combat, the Ninja surely win.

The thing is though, Doflamingo can fly, which could cause problems since neither of the Ninja displayed the ability to while they were alive...

Flying enemies aren't exceptionally rare in the ninja's verse, so they doubtlessly have ways to combat this (I can think of a few things off the top of my head) but none of these ways would probably have the sheer mountain-busting power which would be needed to do real damage to Doflamingo...

Luffy, as it happens, can also fly with Gear 4th, which he will logically resort to fairly early on, though using it, his first instinct would likely be an all-out offensive.

Still, while Luffy uses Gear 4th, Hashirama win have time to pull out his Shinsuusenju and his sage abilities, the likes of which would likely equalize any offensive maneuvers the other team could create for the duration of Gear 4th, after which, luffy becomes useless and gets killed quickly, while Hashirama is left panting for breath.

In this state of relative weakness, Doflamingo might try to put a string on Hashirama, but Madara would realize it quickly with his High level Sharingan and would slice the string apart with his Perfect Susanoo, pulling Hashirama inside Perfect Susanoo with him.

I mean, Hashirama doesn't get THAT vunerable after using several thousand hands, so he should be fine here an ready to continue after about half a minute.

From here on, Doflamino's Birdcage will probably work against him as he'll be trapped with the two ninja powerhouses as Hashirama slowly fills Birdcage up with wood. Devilfruit awakening is pretty useless here since Doffy will be forced from the ground and the ground will quickly be covered in roots. Before the birdcage's thirty minutes are up, Hashirama and Madara will already be pounding Doflamingo's face in, against the roof of the cage, forcing him to deactivate it.

Then, from there on out, it's all about picking Doffy out from the sky. I can already imagine "Wood Style: Advent of a World of Flowering Trees" being very useful here. Whatever the case, Doffy get poisoned with sleeping spores, he resists for a while but falls after maybe half an hour. Weakened, Madara and Hashirama use their remaining strength to finish Doffy off.

 

[Crimson_Eyess]

Hmm let's start with taking a look at both parties DC/AP. Team Naruto has the advantage here with Hashirama being the strongest with him being Large Mountain and Large Mountain to Mountain (Doffy & Luffy) is fairly impressive gap of power with there being a likely 1+ gigaton difference in power. But to go even further I think the respective fights between Madara & Hashirama and Doffy & Luffy shows gap between the teams, Team Naruto would pummel entire Mountain Ranges, Team OP only ruined a City.

Next Speed, this goes to Team OP with mach 600+ speed, with Team Naruto being only mach 200+.

Durability, depends if Team Naruto can stay in their avatars, if they can they have advantage, if they can't or Luffy & Doffy can force them out of their avatars, than it's easy pickings for Team OP.

Strength, is advantage Team Naruto counting their avatars, Team OP otherwise.

Now we have Range (Barring Birdcage), this catagory favors Team Naruto, while Doffy has extended range with his strings, enough to effect Dressrosa, Luffy is the weaklink here, while his rubber body gives him extended melee range, he does not have any ranged abilities at his disposal. While both of Team Naruto have immense range with their avatars, they both also have ranged abilites such as Jukai Kuton, Kajukai Korin, Mokuryu no Jutsu, Gokka Messhitshu, Genjutsu, etc.

Stamina wise, I give to team Naruto also just for the fact Gear 4th uses up so much of Luffy's haki.

Intelligence, doesn't really matter in this fight, since all parties are capable combat minds.

Weakness', this catagory could be vital since Team OP consistent of DF users, and Hashirama has Water Release, now this could play a factor, however only so if Hashirama has knowledge of the weakness, which may not be the case since you only said they have knowledge of their DF abilities.

Equipment by default goes to Team Naruto, Team OP doesn't carry equipment, Team Naruto has standard ninja equipment, and also Gunbai which is a nice weapon to have.

Abilities/Hax/Versatility, while Team OP has potent abilities such as Parasite, Color of Observation Haki,and Immunity to Blunt force.. I think the more potent abilities go to Team Naruto with things such as Genjutsu, Izanagi, and Poison Flowers. And all parties are versatile with whatever ability they use (Various String attacks, Various Wood & Fire Attacks)

Birdcage, IIRC birdcage takes about an hour to close in, I think that is enough time for either party to win, so I don't believe this plays apart of the battle.

Conclusion, while I think Team OP will overwhelm Team Naruto with speed, eventually Doffy & Luffy will be using their better attacks or forms (Awakening & Gear 4) because they won't be doing much to Team Naruto, and I think Madara & Hashirama will survive long enough (They've gone at with each for an entire day) for Luffy to go back to normal from G4, where they, team Naruto that is, proceed to tag team Doffy, and easily dispose of a weakend Luffy. Alternatively Team OP gets overwhelmed by Shinsuusenju.

All in all Madara & Hashirama win High Diff.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Gnomishness

I read your comment and I understand your thoughts towards Hashirama and Madara winning, but I do not understand some of the points you have made:

1) Why would Madara and Hashirama be more inclined to work together? I stated that Both parties would have incentives to work together with no complaints.

2) Susanoo would likely not be able to overpower Doflamingo (I leave Luffy out of this unless he is in Gear 4th since he is clearly weaker than Doflamingo physically) since Madara is only 7-A without Kurama being used.

3) Flying Ninja are actually extremely rare in the Naruto verse. The only notable ones are Mu and Onoki (plus some of his underlings). Naruto learns to fly at the end of the series and Kaguya can fly as well. Of course this wouldn't be out of the ordinary for them, though.

4) Luffy (in the manga) was capable of holding Gear 4th for 20+ minutes while against Doflamingo's awakening. He'd obviously still be immobile for several minutes, but do you honestly think that Doflamingo would be willing enough to let him die so that he'd be left fighting two opponents that are each comparable/equal/stronger than him alone?

5) Doflamingo can control the speed of his birdcage (capable of making it so that the cage could close in a few minutes rather then the original 30+ minutes left), but he doesn't have to close it at all. He uses bird cage so that he can have an environmental advantage. Ex: Spider Thread can be used at just about any angle in the battle field and he can fly anywhere in the Bird Cage. How would he be trapped by his own ability? he could move a few threads and leave while making the cage constrict until Hashirama and Madara have to muscle out of it (though Doflamingo has clearly never showcased this in plot)

6) If Hashirama resorts to wood-style to trap Doflamingo, couldn't Doflamingo turn the wood around him into threads (ofc you can argue that he can not, so he could turn the ground into threads and break the wood with them)

I do honestly find this fight to be close due to Hashirama and Madara being superior AP-wise when you put them together while Doflamingo and Luffy are both "Likely 7-A" and Madara = 7-A while Hashirama is "7-A" in sage mode, but despite that gap, I found Doflamingo and Luffy being far faster (Doflamingo's combat speed being accepted as Mach 637+ on this wiki while Luffy powerscales above him with Gear 2nd and 4th) since Hashirama and Madara have showcased speed feats equal if not slightly superior to pre time-skip 2nd gear Luffy (being Mach 400+).

H + M have superior AP and Durability with their abilities, but D + L have superior Speed and Versatility + Doflamingo has the environmental advantage and can likely counter much of Hashirama's attacks.

In a way, I see Doflamingo taking the advantage over Hashirama, but Madara would move in to intercept his attacks while Hashirama moves in on Luffy. They would likely aim for eachother's favorable target, but the partner would move in to counter the attacker.

This fight would likely go on for a long time, but Hashirama and Madara would more than likely fuse their abilities (Hashirama enters sage mode and uses Several Thousand Hands enhanced with Madara's Susanoo), which would push Doflamingo's defenses to the brink while he and Luffy would take blows (Luffy would withstand them since he is rubber, but Doflamingo would take some damage). Luffy would enter Gear 4th since both of them would be overpowered beforehand while Doflamingo tries to recover from taking a few direct blows and then aim to support Luffy with his awakening (they would not be infused with haki at first since Doflamingo's focus would obviously be put on recovering his body, much like when he fought Gear 4th Luffy before being hit by Leo Bazooka). Hashirama would likely be running low on juice, so he'd send another flurry of attacks + his wood clones, which would be evaded by Luffy but stop most of Doflamingo's strands of threads. Any hit that would come close to Luffy would more than likely be evaded or blocked by threads.

Madara would resort to his fire-style while also defending himself and Hashirama from the Gear 4th onslaught for some times, but Doflamingo would likely send a Black-knight as a distraction and aim to pierce the Susanoo, which would result in Hashirama and Madara scattering. Luffy would aim for Hashirama with a Leo Bazooka but his damage would be mitigated as Madara tries to throw his fan-like weapon to shield Hashirama. Hashirama would take damage, but it would be minor. At this point Luffy would be out of juice and retreat back before passing out and Doflamingo would be almost back to his normal state while Madara and Hashirama are both trying to catch their breath.

At this point, Luffy would not be as exhausted as he was when he fought Doflamingo, but he would still need the 10+ minutes to recover, so Doflamingo would have to go all out in order to hold the two off and you could think of this going whatever way you'd want.

This fight could honestly go either way since Each party has superiority in one field over the other but if I were biased, I'd say Luffy + Doflamingo would win, but I wont suggest that since i think it is really close.

I really don't want to include this... but Luffy is immunity to poisons >_>... I don't know if that would well against Hashirama's spores, though. If it does, Doflamingo would be KO'd while Hashirama and Madara think it is over and then "SURPRISE KING KONG GUN", but who knows XD.

If you say that H + M wins, I'll say D + L wins to make this a stalemate thus far~

 

[CinCameron20]

@ Crimson Actually, I'm using Alive Madara (Kurama is restricted) and Alive Hashirama. Both are 7-A. Madara is High 7-A when using Kurama (but that is restricted) and Hashirama is 7-A in sage mode (But it may be the wiki listing it wrong). I will include your vote for Hashirama and Madara unless you change your mind. Both parties fought amongst eachother in the plot and scarred the battlefield in which they fought. Just so you know, Dressrosa is 44km in diameter, so the battlefield in which Doflamingo and Luffy fought (which was between flowerhill and the king's plateau) was 5+km in diameter just to clarify. Each fighter is close in terms of power.

I'd also like both of you to know about why I included birdcage: It is not meant to be closed in for this sort of fight: Doflamingo's abilities can be used more efficiently in his cage. his Spider thread can be used at all angles and he can fly anywhere within the cage, for example.

 

[Crimson_Eyess]

@ Crimson Actually, I'm using Alive Madara (Kurama is restricted) and Alive Hashirama. Both are 7-A. Madara is High 7-A when using Kurama (but that is restricted) and Hashirama is 7-A in sage mode (But it may be the wiki listing it wrong).

I never said Madara was High 7-A, I said Hashirama is, which he is when in Sage Mode using Shinsuusenju.

 

[CinCameron20]

oops, It seemed like it was saying that both were large mountain in your reply.

My bad, but the way the wiki has it listed is confusing due to the key suggesting:

Base | Sage Mode | Edo

and the Tier showing: 7-B | 7-A, at least High 7-A

But I understand now, though don't you think his Several Thousand hands would be somewhat ineffective against Luffy's rubber body especially since Luffy has taken a Small Island attack from Fujitora with almost no affect to himself at the time?

(Here is the calc for the attack from Fujitora: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=26604).

This would honestly be a close fight and I think that, whichever team wins, there will only be one person left standing.

What do you think about my other points that I made in my comments?

 

[Crimson_Eyess]

@Hfhfdgdg

In the case of Luffy and his Blunt Damage Immunity, he'll need to use G4 to even damage Madara or Hashirama, and he only has so much time in that form before he runs out of Haki, and I think that Team Naruto can survive the onslaught of G4 & Doffy since they (Madara & Hashirama) have fought for an entire day and not keeling over, where they proceed to double team Doffy and dispose of a weakened Luffy (Where I touched upon in my Conclusion section of original comment).

As for your previous comment, most of it was in response to the other user, so it's for him to debate that post, not me. As for the added on material on your comment towards me, Luffy, Mingo, and Madara W/O Kyuubi are not that close in power with Hashirama, he has around 1+ gigaton more power than any of the other combatants, so I do not agree with that statement. As for your statements for the size of Dressrosa, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there so I'll ask you for a more elaborate explanation.

 

[CinCameron20]

Well, you suggested that "Madara and Hashirama destroyed mountain ranges while Doflamingo and Luffy destroyed a city". Doflamingo and Luffy spent most of their fight on top of the Flower Hill fighting, but once their fight went to the city, they decimated the range between the Flower Hill and the King's plateau. The space between the mountain and plateau is about 5+km of space when looking at the calculation for the size of Dressrosa: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20458 (that's for greenbit... I can not find the Dressrosa calculation, but I can link you at least one calculation that refers to the size of Dressrosa calculation: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=26604 stats the Island diameter is 43,803 meters).

I also disagree about Luffy "needing" Gear 4th to hurt Madara or Hashirama. Both are town level in durability with their physical bodies, which means that base Luffy can hurt them. If Doflamingo makes an opening to either one of them with his attacks, Luffy can hurt them pretty badly with haki infused strikes. Also, his 3rd Gear strikes should be much superior to his 2nd gear strikes and should be somewhat comparable to his 4th gear strikes (though there isn't enough evidence to back this up since Doflamingo used Spider Thread to block Elephant Gun and evaded Grizzly Magnum). He can easily hurt both Madara and Hashirama's physical bodies. Gear 4th attacks would be crippling if they took such attacks with no protection.

Then there is the whole matter with speed: Luffy would clearly be capable of evading most attacks with his Gear 2nd movement, which is likely faster than Doflamingo (at least when Doflamingo is injured). Doflamingo also has a huge speed advantage being 630+ Mach.

Hashirama and Madara may have fought for over a day, but Doflamingo kept getting up after taking City+~Mountain level attacks while his organs were still recovering from Gamma Knife.

I think that I'm starting to lean even more towards Doflamingo and Luffy's victory due to superior durability and speed (And that I just remembered that they both have CoC, which will have some effect), but with Hashirama being High 7-A, it is keeping me from thinking that it is a clear victory.

 

[Crimson_Eyess]

- All of the Doffy & Luffy fight never reached a Mountain level energy output, at least not a calcuable one is my point, while Hashirama & Madara were decimating entire Mountain Ranges, my point being the scope of the Hashirama & Madara battle being bigger.

- And they keep their bodies well protected, so I don't see Luffy ever getting a clean hit on either of their bodies, especially since they start in Susano'o and Wood Golem, he would need G4 to harm either avatar of theirs, and the longer he waits the more likely he is to be beat. As for Doffy making an opening for Luffy, that wouldn't happen, he would be too preoccupied with Hashirama (Since they have knowledge of their abilites, they would find this the best match up) to even think to help Luffy.Gear 2nd and 3rd strikes aren't even comparable, they have no such showings on the level of G4 and as you say you have no evidence to back this up, so why bring it up? Also this wiki has Gear 2nd & 3rd wiki at Small City via combination attacks, that output wouldn't be enough to penetrate either of team Naruto's avatar. As for their physical bodies getting attacked, yeah they'd be f*cked if that happen, I differ to my original post (Durability section).

- As for them being faster, never contested a such (Check my speed section in original post), however being stationairy which the OP fighters will do at some point or another, will be at threat of Genjutsu, and 1000 Palms has huge range, radius, and aoe, so much so that neither could dodge. Why I think speed isn't the decieding factor, is both Hashirama's durability advantage and Luffy's limited time of actually being a factor, where before him going G4 him blitzing wouldn't do anything, while he'll have very limited time of doing damage while in G4, where I see Team Naruto surviving, since they've shown it before fighting an entire day against each other, taking potent attacks my mind you.

- And while Doffy is definitely impressively durable, he is again, hindered by the fact Luffy has very limited time of being a factor, and once he runs out of haki, it spells the end of doflamingo, since he'd be contending with a ninja with more DC & Durability and another with the same amount of DC & Durability, he'd be overwhelmed almost instantaneously and defeated. With a weakend Luffy being disposed with minimal effort.

- Team OP does not have superior Durability (You have to account of Team Naruto's avatars, Susano'o and Wood Golem or Shinsuusenju). And Conquerors Haki will have no effect, I have never seen Conquerors Haki work on someone as high as Madara's level, let alone someone stronger than them in Hashirama. Regardless I still see this as Madara & Hashirama's victory, more DC, more Durability (Via avatars), and more versatility (Due to Luffy's lack of).

 

[Gnomishness]

Next Speed, this goes to Team OP with mach 600+ speed, with Team Naruto being only mach 200+.

Conclusion, while I think Team OP will overwhelm Team Naruto with speed

Yea, I forgot about the speed. If speed is equal I'm keeping my vote, but if not it's almost definitely the Pirate's win.

Being 3x the speed of your opponent is a pretty big deal.

 

[CinCameron20]

1) There is no real calculation to give Doflamingo and Luffy a tier anymore ever since Rib's Calculation was considered invalid despite being perfectly fine outside of one line he stated whereas "Doflamingo was falling at rest". I don't know if you've seen it or not, but I guess there is no point in me showing this to you since it is considered invalid now: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Rib78/One_Piece_-_King_Kong_Gu --

Doflamingo and Luffy's tier are based on powerscaling to Zoro and Jozu atm. If Doflamingo were to be powerscaled to Jozu (since his Parasito was capable of holding him down with no resistance), he'd be at least 7-A instead of just being "likely" -- Luffy managed to break out of Parasito.

^ I'll stop with this topic unless you'd like to continue on one of our walls since it is straying from this post.

2) i'm simply saying that base Luffy is fully capable of severely damaging Hashirama and Madara's bodies. He is at least small city with combination attacks and Mountain in Gear 4th. Don't you think that several attacks back to back from Gear 4th would start breaking their defenses down?

Also, what do you mean that Doflamingo would be too busy? Couldn't he use Billow White or even Everwhite to momentarily distract Hashirama while he sends a Black-knight (or himself) to help Luffy take down Madara?

3) Genjutsu is a non-factor outside of the Narutoverse. Luffy being immobile for 10 minutes doesn't automatically make him stay out of the fight especially if Doflamingo isn't stupid enough to decide "I'll let them kill him so that I will be stuck fighting two powerful opponents all on my own". Also, how much energy do you think that Hashirama and Madara both would have to actually be able to take Doflamingo down in that 10 minute window? I don't see it being very likely even if they were to land a few blows.

4) seems like you answered that, but how would Hashirama be capable of outputting enough force to defeat Doflamingo if 1. Doflamingo would more than likely still have enough mobility to evade most, if not all of Hashirama's strikes or 2. Hashirama would have used his ultimate move in order to stall or beat out Luffy in Gear 4th? It's not like Hashirama has that much energy to spare. He and Madara spent most of their fight using battle tactics since they had to use their chakra carefully since they were running low after their clash earlier on.

5) Much like with Luffy, Madara and Hashirama would be running out of energy over the course of the fight if they are wielding their Susanoo and Golem + Sage jutsus for an extended period of time. They'd be weakened (not in the sense that they'd be out of chakra or even close) by the time Luffy passes out and Doflamingo would more than likely be fully capable of holding them back for the 10 minutes Luffy is vulnerable (he could always grab Luffy and start running through the sky and throwing "Spider thread" or "Bullet thread" as means of retaliation (or hide behind his haki infused awakened threads).

I know it seems like I'm being biased towards OP, but this is all meant to be a rebuttal to your points. Who is to say that Doflamingo would fight them head on when Luffy would more than likely ask him to stall for time so that he can come back and try to finish them off?

 

[CinCameron20]

Next Speed, this goes to Team OP with mach 600+ speed, with Team Naruto being only mach 200+.

Conclusion, while I think Team OP will overwhelm Team Naruto with speed

Yea, I forgot about the speed. If speed is equal I'm keeping my vote, but if not it's almost definitely the Pirate's win.
Being 3x the speed of your opponent is a pretty big deal.

Speed is not equal -- Doffy and Luffy keep their speed advantage since it clear that Hashirama firmly holds the DC/durability advantage. The only real restriction is Kurama not being a factor via Madara, which lowers him to 7-A (but it is meant to be 2v2... not 3v2 with Kurama put in the mix)

 

[Gnomishness]

@Gnomishness

I will try to respond.

1) Why would Madara and Hashirama be more inclined to work together? I stated that Both parties would have incentives to work together with no complaints.

I wasn't talking about their willingness to work together rather than the fact that the Naruto Team know each other better and are thus more capable of covering for one another than the One Piece Team.

Like, Madara and Hashirama could reasonably have some sort of Combo-attack which they can do, while Doffy and Luffy obviously don't know each other well enough be a real PAIR like that. They might get in each others way by accident and all manor of other small things...

2) Susanoo would likely not be able to overpower Doflamingo (I leave Luffy out of this unless he is in Gear 4th since he is clearly weaker than Doflamingo physically) since Madara is only 7-A without Kurama being used.

Madara's Susanoo is casually 7-A from a far-off distance. It's not so weak... Also literally, it weighs more than Doflamingo does and can potentually regen, so it would likely be capable of pushing Doffy back on those merits alone.

3) Flying Ninja are actually extremely rare in the Naruto verse. The only notable ones are Mu and Onoki (plus some of his underlings). Naruto learns to fly at the end of the series and Kaguya can fly as well. Of course this wouldn't be out of the ordinary for them, though.

And guess whom Madara has experience fighting? Both Muu and Onoki. Also Gaara while in his Edo tensei form, and none of them gave him any particular trouble due to their flight...

Hell, Madara actually used Hashirama's Jutsu as a way to deal with Gaara's flight because apparently it was so much more effective then his own.

4) Luffy (in the manga) was capable of holding Gear 4th for 20+ minutes while against Doflamingo's awakening. He'd obviously still be immobile for several minutes, but do you honestly think that Doflamingo would be willing enough to let him die so that he'd be left fighting two opponents that are each comparable/equal/stronger than him alone?

Could've sworn is was a much shorter timeframe than that... Hmm...

Anyway, it isn't so much that Doffy would let him die, rather that, I don't think Doffy could protect Luffy for those full Five minutes without dying himself. Luffy would (quite literally) weigh him down. Having to literally carry someone while in battle is one hell of a handicap...

5) Doflamingo can control the speed of his birdcage (capable of making it so that the cage could close in a few minutes rather then the original 30+ minutes left), but he doesn't have to close it at all. He uses bird cage so that he can have an environmental advantage. Ex: Spider Thread can be used at just about any angle in the battle field and he can fly anywhere in the Bird Cage. How would he be trapped by his own ability? he could move a few threads and leave while making the cage constrict until Hashirama and Madara have to muscle out of it (though Doflamingo has clearly never showcased this in plot)

Because he never showcased it, I didn't bother assuming that he could. If Doffy could just leave the birdcage, I don't see why he wouldn't have... He was smart enough to and it easily would have been the correct choice.

I feel that Doffy would willingly keep himself trapped in his birdcage for a while as an inevitable win-condition against the Ninja. He'd want to use the Birdcage for as long as he could, up until the point where it directly benefits him to dispose of it.

6) If Hashirama resorts to wood-style to trap Doflamingo, couldn't Doflamingo turn the wood around him into threads (ofc you can argue that he can not, so he could turn the ground into threads and break the wood with them)

If Doffy couldn't turn Luffy in to threads, it's safe to assume that he can't turn people into threads and it's reasonable that he cant turn animals or plants or other living things into strings. Anyway, Hashirama's trees have his chakra in them...

Also, I thought that Doflamingo's devil fruit awakening had a rather short range, like a city block or something...

Hashirama's roots, the type in can spring out of nowhere in seconds around his wood-golem, can easily be seen as over 50 feet thick. Doflamingo might not even be capable of accessing the ground...

I'll respond to the second half of your comment tomorrow.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Gnomish

I'll respond to your comments

1) oops but Madara and Hashirama have shown tension between one another. It was never shown that they fought together and Madara made it clear that he feels stressed at the thought of him (his comment to the younger Onoki to "never mention that shinobi's name"), but considering my rule, they'd be inclined to work together. Madara would more than likely combine his susanoo with Hashirama's Golem and Thousand hand technique, but i'm sure that Doflamingo and Luffy could find a creative way to combine their powers (but he would more than likely just use his threads as a means to counter attacks coming towards the both of them).

2) I'm sure the susanoo would be > Doflamingo's physical body even augmented with haki, but it wouldn't be that much of a gap and Doflamingo could always resort to Spider thread + his awakened threads as a mean to mitigage or even block Madara's Susanoo attacks.

3) true, but Hashirama is unlikely to immediately adjust with his lack of experience with flying opponents (unless he has fought a flying opponent before).

4) After Doflamingo awakened his Devil Fruit, there was a panel with an above shot of Dressrosa stating "20 minutes later": http://www.***********.net/one-piece/785/9 so yeah... 20 minute+ duration for Gear 4th.

Do you think that Doflamingo (who would most likely be fine via restructuring via threads if he took any hits) would be unable to stop Madara and Hashirama, who would likely be winded after the Doflamingo + Gear 4th speed blitz assault? Even if he were injured, he could resort to his awakening to hold them back for at least the majority of the 10 minutes needed for Luffy to recover before struggling heavily.

5) I assume so since they are his threads and he controls them and has shown that he can control how fast it closes to a huge degree, but you're right.

6) that's what i meant by "you could argue that it can't" but he could use his awakening on the surrounding buildings/ground and destroy the wood (if not muscle out on his own, which could go either way). I was just wondering if you'd consider the wood-style to be within Doflamingo's ability to convert into strings.

Doflamingo does not need to touch the ground to turn material into threads (or at least manipulate the ones he already changed). If that were the case, his threads would've turned back into buildings the moment he left the ground to chase Luffy in the air.

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

Hashirama and Madara due to superior DC, Durability (at least with Susanoo/Wood barriers) and hax.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Dude no one going to read all thing you guys has written xD

Hashirama and Madara due to superior DC, Durability (at least with Susanoo/Wood barriers) and hax.

And genjutsu, also hax like parasite only work on weaker opponent.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

3) Genjutsu is a non-factor outside of the Narutoverse.

ohh no, not this genjutsu only work to chakra user.. seriously I thought in fight like this the verse is equalized..

 

[CinCameron20]

...? Genjutsu IS A NON FACTOR against people outside the verse.

@Valar Could you elaborate more on this? Also, there are other stats that would decide on this, which is why I found this to be a close fight. Shouldn't Doflamingo and Luffy have an advantage in speed or stamina or even range?

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

...? Genjutsu IS A NON FACTOR against people outside the verse.
@Valar Could you elaborate more on this? Also, there are other stats that would decide on this, which is why I found this to be a close fight. Shouldn't Doflamingo and Luffy have an advantage in speed or stamina or even range?

Kaguya used Genjutsu on people before they had chakra. Doflamingo and Luffy have speed advantage for sure but not a huge one. And speed advantage is kind of useless when they can't hurt Madara and Hashirama with their avatars which they can activate almost immediately. Stamina i'm not sure since both teams have extremely high stamina but I think Hashirama and Madara definitely have an advantage in range. A lot of their attacks dwarf mountain ranges.

 

[CinCameron20]

Kaguya used Genjutsu on people who actually did have chakra. She is under the impression that all chakra belongs to her alone and thus tried to take all of it into her. After her sealing, Hagaromo spread the ninshu to allow humans (and other animals... and bugs...) to use ninjutsu.

Their speed advantage is being at least Mach 640+ (Luffy being faster than Doflamingo while using Gear 4th) while Hashirama and Madara are both around Mach 200~300 when going all out. I highly doubt their avatars are eternal. Doflamingo and Luffy can cause some serious damage with their attacks especially if Doflamingo resorts to his awakening and Luffy goes into Gear 4th. H + M do not have an infinite supply of Chakra -- they fought for quite some time in their avatars, but after a while, they had to fight physically and tactically for the majority of the time since they were running low on chakra. Doflamingo fought an uphill fight despite having internal damage that nearly killed him. He took several blows from Gear 4th but got back up shortly after.

I know that Madara and Hashirama's shocks from their attacks can destroy terrain several kilometers in the distance, but Doflamingo's strings are at least 20+km in range since he could make Bird Cage large enough to cover all of Dressrosa. The radius for Dressrosa is about 22km. Luffy is likely to have the smallest range since his arms can only stretch so far (up to a few kilometers).

 

[Valar_Melkor_2]

Kaguya used Genjutsu on people who actually did have chakra. She is under the impression that all chakra belongs to her alone and thus tried to take all of it into her. After her sealing, Hagaromo spread the ninshu to allow humans (and other animals... and bugs...) to use ninjutsu.

Their speed advantage is being at least Mach 640+ (Luffy being faster than Doflamingo while using Gear 4th) while Hashirama and Madara are both around Mach 200~300 when going all out. I highly doubt their avatars are eternal. Doflamingo and Luffy can cause some serious damage with their attacks especially if Doflamingo resorts to his awakening and Luffy goes into Gear 4th. H + M do not have an infinite supply of Chakra -- they fought for quite some time in their avatars, but after a while, they had to fight physically and tactically for the majority of the time since they were running low on chakra. Doflamingo fought an uphill fight despite having internal damage that nearly killed him. He took several blows from Gear 4th but got back up shortly after.

I know that Madara and Hashirama's shocks from their attacks can destroy terrain several kilometers in the distance, but Doflamingo's strings are at least 20+km in range since he could make Bird Cage large enough to cover all of Dressrosa. The radius for Dressrosa is about 22km. Luffy is likely to have the smallest range since his arms can only stretch so far (up to a few kilometers).

All chakra really did belong to Kaguya at the time since it it came from the God Tree. Humans didn not start out with chakra and Kaguya used Genjutsu on them before they had it. I guess it doesn't really matter here because Neither Hashirama or Madara really use Genjutsu in fights.

Their avatars are not eternal but we don't know if they fought physically and tactically for the majority of the time because the majority of the 24 hour fight wasn't seen. After the clash in which they each destroyed each other's avatars it skipped to the end of the fight but they could have easily reactivated them between that time.

 

[CinCameron20]

There are several different showings of their fight, but it seems to have been the case in which: they started the fight one on one, Madara summoned Kurama, Hashirama used wood Golem, Madara activated Susanoo, and after some time, Madara and Hashirama continued fighting and Hashirama ended up binding Kurama while he and Madara finished their fight. It is unthinkable for them to continue using their avatars after they both roughed eachother up and used their most powerful techniques to be honest. Though, we don't know how the entire fight went down, but I'd like to expect it to be similar to Naruto and Sasuke's final fight.

Doflamingo and Luffy should still have the stamina advantage given that Doflamingo can tank life-threating attacks and continue fighting at an intensity that can overpower base/2nd gear Luffy and that he can use his awakening without draining much (if any) energy (unless he applies haki, of course). Luffy would likely use Gear 4th and at least hurt both opponents and make them spend some of their chakra, but he'd go unconscious and Doflamingo would have to fight both of them while protecting Luffy for 10 minutes (though it wouldn't be much of an issue protecting Luffy while he uses his awakening to hold both opponents back). I'd see all 4 fighters being injured and winded after Luffy wakes back up, but Luffy would still be somewhat exhausted and Madara + Hashirama would both be winded and would likely be running relatively low on Chakra. Doflamingo would be repairing the damage while still attacking with his awakened threads. Flap-thread would likely damage Madara's perfect susanoo or even break it if Madara is running low on power, so I would see this ending with Doflamingo being the strongest link for Team OP since his Billow-white and Everwhite would give his opponents a disadvantage in the environment while also whittling down both of their defenses to a degree. Luffy would likely take out Madara with King Kong Gun (or at least put him out of commission with it) before slipping back into unconsciousness and being KO'd for the rest of the fight since he remained unconscious for over 2 days after his fight with Doflamingo, leaving Doflamingo and Hashirama to settle the fight.

I'd see Doflamingo winning especially since Luffy would have been the one taking the brunt of Hashirama and Madara's attacks while Doflamingo would have been fighting very passively while mitigating the attacks using his haki infused threads and using his ability to repair his organs via threads. Granted, Hashirama would have healed himself, but I'd find it unlikely for him not to be running out of chakra while Doflamingo would still have enough energy to continue his assault. Hashirama would hold out for some time, but as soon as he runs low on chakra, he'd be unable to retaliate against Doflamingo's speed. Even if he could, I could see Doflamingo using Parasito on Madara, who would be too weakened to resist, to help him fight Hashirama.

I still find Doflamingo and Luffy winning this fight with high-to-extreme difficulty due to speed and Doflamingo's stamina + range.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Doflamingo barely able to keep up and take couple of punches from luffy gear 4 and madara and hashirama is stronger than that, heck even Doflamingo hax is not working for Luffy gear 4.

 

[CinCameron20]

how is Madara stronger than that? Btw, Doflamingo is 3+x faster than Hashirama and Madara. Also, if you'd read the rules: They are inclined to work together. Luffy barely beat Doflamingo in Gear 4th when Doflamingo was already recovering from life-threating injuries via Law.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

madara and hashirama is Large Mountain level while luffy is Mountain level, and Luffy barely beat Doflamingo in Gear 4th because he barely able to use that from to do a couple of punch. and where its say luffy and DD is 3 times faster than that?

 

[CinCameron20]

Now I know you didn't read the rules, nor did you read any of their pages:

Madara is 7-A with perfect susanoo -- Kurama is restricted due to the fact that it would make this into a 3v2

Hashirama is 7-A in Sage mode -- High 7-A with his ultimate

It states on their pages their speeds and shows the calculations (for Hashirama and Doflamingo)

Doflamingo = Mach 637+ (Luffy is much faster in Gear 4th)

Hashirama = > Mach 234+ (but higher with Sage Mode)

V the links are in the Topics section.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Well I did read the rules and you say madara is starts with susanoo, so i think you using the perfect one since we dont have calculation on his normal one I only miss he need Kyuubi+susanoo to do that his High 7-A feats, and you only say Hashirama can use his Sage mode and as far as i know he can use the Shin Süsenju in his Sage mode, and the speed is only Hashirama at base but not his sage mode.

 

[CinCameron20]

I'm saying that Madara is 7-A with his perfect Susanoo and Hashirama is 7-A in Sage mode. His Shin Susenju is High 7-A, yes.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

so is Hashirama allowed to use his Shin Süsenju? since that is one of his ability while using his sage mode?

 

[CinCameron20]

Of course. He gets to keep it if Doflamingo and Luffy are much faster than them.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

I think I going to wait for the result of your Doflamingo, Luffy and Sabo upgrade.

 

[CinCameron20]

Doflamingo and Luffy are likely to get a speed upgrade... stand-by xD

 

[GreatestSin]

i wil take luffy and doflamingo, if anything, i would ay they are faster which allows them to easily evade PS, and hashirama needs to be constantly watching for doffys parasyte ability (madara too), furthermore, normal physical hits wont work on luffy, so they need sharp objects,

hashis wood can be cut by doffys strings, so it would boil down to doffy and luffy vs madara in PS, i dont think the team has the necassary power to take it down bu at some point madara will be forced to stop it since his chakra isnt infinite, so it goes to luffy and doffy in the end ^_^

 

[CinCameron20]

Hmm. I would ask for you to give more credit to Madara and Hashirama's abilities, but I do understand the points you made regarding speed and blunt attacks being ineffective vs Luffy, mainly because I stated as such. I'll accept your vote, but please explain more into why Doflamingo's attacks would be fully capable of getting through Hashirama's defenses.

Okay... let's see where the votes are at *i'll put them on the main post*

3 for Team OP (Me, Gnomish (unless he keeps his vote) and GreatestSin)

2 count for Team Naruto (Valar, Crimson) and I am still questioning Jim's reasonings, so I wont count until he elaborates more into why he believes that Team Naruto wins

But if weren't such a hard-ass... it's currently 3 to 3... I am enjoying this since it is as close as I want it to be

 

[GreatestSin]

^i can remember that hashis wood was really that strong, i agree if someone says that doffy slicing gaint-wood-statues in pieces is unlikely but that isnt needed, in order for hashi to catch doffy he needs to make fast attacks, unfortunatly if he does so, the wood wont be ridiculously thick, therefore they are rather easily to be sliced apart

(exspecially since doffys strings never showed to have the slightest problem in slicing stones and such stuff (didnt he at one point pierce the skin of a diamond DF-user?), with this and the option to turn the wood into strings themselfes i think hashi wil have a hard time hitting him ^_^ )

 

[CinCameron20]

Doflamingo never pierced Diamond, but he did pierce Luffy's armament haki, which is stronger than steel by a considerable degree. I understand your points now.

 

[GreatestSin]

Doflamingo never pierced Diamond, but he did pierce Luffy's armament haki, which is stronger than steel by a considerable degree. I understand your points now.

i thought he used parasyte at this diamon-DF-user from whitebeards crew during the battle of the best, or do i remember wrong?

 

[CinCameron20]

He did, but it never pierced him (or at least was never shown to have) -- he wrapped him in threads and thus held him down.

 

[GreatestSin]

^ah, ok,thanks, than i remember wrong ^_^