Doflamingo and Luffy vs (Alive) Madara and Hashirama

[CinCameron20]

The ironic thing is that Madara and Hashirama have shown fairly vague displays, but have comfortable sittings with their tiers. Doflamingo and Luffy's fight was a clear as day but they are sitting as "Likely 7-A" purely due to powerscaling and that there are no calculations that can give them any spot in a tier. They could be anywhere between 7-B+ and High 7-A, but there are no current valid calcs.

I argue that they are "7-A, possibly higher" due to Doflamingo's Bird-cage only being stalemated by Zoro + co. and Fujitora (who has clearly shown Mountain level physical capabilities as he was easily able to cancel out Sabo's attacks, which are casually City+ in DC and are more than likely Mountain), but hey... that's the only argument I can make since I can only effectively do Speed calculations but never AP calculations.

Who do you think will win if it is just Madara + Hashirama vs Doflamingo + Luffy given that Doflamingo + Luffy are faster, but Madara + Hashirama are both capable of applying more fire-power and AoE (Hashirama especially) from what we know?

CoC and Genjutsu illusions still being inactive, of course.

We may never see a completely canon Hashirama vs Madara anyways since they are moving onto the next generation with Boruto ...

 

[KazarianFahs]

Honsestly very hard to say,since we don't know how would hashirama and madara strategise against someone faster than them,but you can say they have more battle experience and sort of smarter? maybe? the match really goes either way.Really comes down to hashirama,and he's the most vague,hashi's durability is off the charts for this match,casual wood constructs blocking tailed beast ball,blocking perfect susannoo balde without a sage wood construct,i don't really see luffy or doflamingo doing anything to be able to damage the buddha statue not to mention he can control them all at once,the wood dragon and golem are basically tailed beast levels in physicality and the buddha statue is just something else(it can detach from it's hands and move along as a different structure,capable of casually holding a tailed beast)also a few god gates in a while to keep them busy,hashi can more than easily defend madara and same goes for madara,luffy and doflamingo really need to come up with a good strategy to be able to hurt them.but they have speed advantage and one mistake can be fatal for hashi or madara more so for madara,since his durability showing is less than hashi's,not to mention a perfect susanoo is capable of flight,this is really 5/5 now,can't really vote on anyone.

 

[CinCameron20]

As I put in the rules: both parties have SOME prep time -- they know their opponents ability to a very basic degree but had time to get used to the layout of the island.

Doflamingo and Luffy do not necessarily have to go for the statue, do they? Hashirama is the caster and if he is disrupted, he'd lose plenty of momentum, but that Buddha would still be a factor as long as he can hold Sage Mode for quite some time.

That's all I can say for either side at this point really... it seems that if you think it is inconclusive, it is back to 3 to 3... dang... this long discussion just to go back to a stalemate xD

 

[KazarianFahs]

lowl,but i just read that you allowed izanagi,see the thing is most MSD abilities require 2 eyes to control like ametarusu for example,an uchiha with MSD will never use izanagi unless he sees certain death and will be willing to sacrifice his future capabilities with the MSD to just some genjutsu precog and chakra viewing and some other.all uchiha's with MSD have the option to izanagi,and if madara uses it here it's a certain win,in any matches.atleast against someone who is on his own tier.

 

[CinCameron20]

How is Izanagi a certain win? IIRC, it is an ability that casts a genjutsu that would allow the user to avoid taking considerable damage or being killed for a brief amount of time by allowing themselves to manipulate their state of existence--making the injury received an illusion. It seems like an ability that would simply grant him another chance to kill his foes while also briefly tricking them with their faked death.

btw, what is MSD unless you're talking about his mangekyo sharingan?

 

[KazarianFahs]

yea IDK why i added a D XD,but no izanagi is not a genjutsu,it literally breaks the border between reality and fiction,think of it as a timed reality warping(5 mintues) you are basically unharmable and unseeable for those 5 mins,yet you can cause damage and stuff to people.

 

[KazarianFahs]

it's called a genjutsu because it targets the yin and yang release but this time not an enemy but the user turning him into a illusion that is reality or reality that is an illusion.

 

[KazarianFahs]

Danzo wasn't very adept at it hence his failure to kill sasuke with it,and he didn't really try to catch him off guard but obito was able to use it very well.

 

[CinCameron20]

But the way Danzo used it suggested that he still had a physical form, but if he took life-threatening damage, his body would fade like an illusion while he leaps out from another area close by. And 5 minutes? I thought each eye was 10 seconds duration unless I missed something.

 

[KazarianFahs]

But the way Danzo used it suggested that he still had a physical form, but if he took life-threatening damage, his body would fade like an illusion while he leaps out from another area close by. And 5 minutes? I thought each eye was 10 seconds duration unless I missed something.

depends on the user's skill and danzo wasn't a real uchiha.obito was able to escape Konan's paper person of God technique with it,which is basically an abyss made of 600 billion explosive tags that you fall into which keeps exploding for 10 minutes.sorry for saying 5 minutes .which obito escaped with izanagi without any damage to him and later put a blade through konan,before he even appeared,or conan can even percieve.So madara can Atleast pull it off for 10 minutes,should be more since madara has EMS while obito has just MS.

 

[CinCameron20]

This just made me think that, if Madara and Hashirama were worn out from Luffy and Doflamingo's assault, Luffy would be unconscious for 10 minutes after Gear 4th while Doflamingo would have to hold both off for that time and it would be perfect for Madara to trigger Izanagi, but I don't see it being the deciding factor especially if Doflamingo fights extremely defensively, which he would in a 2v1 situation especially since it will be a 10 minute window.

I don't see the instant win, but I do see it giving Madara a good chance especially during the time in which Luffy would be useless.

 

[KazarianFahs]

yea and since madara won't use izanagi until the very last moments of battle,and when he uses it there's very high chances he's putting someone down permanently,i'd give 6/10 to hashi and madara with very high DIFF and madara leaving unable of depth perception.

 

[CinCameron20]

such a late reply D-=... but Madara could use Izanagi during Gear 4th's initial assault, but that's just a matter of opinion. He is more likely to use it during a time in which he believes he'll take life-threatening damage.

Either way, I can see your points, though Doflamingo's awakened threads could move at speeds comparable to Gear 4th Luffy (due to holding him back for 20 minutes and that Luffy had a tough time evading all of them back to back). Even if Izanagi gets him close to Doflamingo due to tricking him with it and Hashirama being a good distraction, I don't see Doflamingo taking severe damage even if Madara had enough chakra to cast Susanoo. I'd only see that being the case if he kamikaze'd and tried to impale Doflamingo's throat/chest/ab while risking being killed. Even if he were successful in wounding Doflamingo, he'd likely be killed while going to finish off Luffy--who would still be unconscious--while expecting Doflamingo to be dying from having his throat cut open or his heart impaled completely. He would instead have a overheat or awakened strand of threads pierce his body. This is assuming that Hashirama and Madara can trick Doflamingo into thinking he has the upper hand via Izanagi or some other tactic, which I can somewhat see happening if Doflamingo was hurt before-hand, but not so much.

I still see Madara and Hashirama trying to get closer and closer to Doflamingo and Luffy while evading the threads but not being able to do much once they get close outside of roughing up Doflamingo before Luffy could get back up and injure one or both further before passing out completely while Doflamingo defeats the other one.

 

[KazarianFahs]

such close fight thou btw about catching offguard,you don't need to actively activate izanagi,you can programme it beforehand to trigger when a specific condition is met like when madara rewrote his own death to a mere dream,yes,his izanagi activated "AFTER" he was killed,completely reviving himself except the right eye.

 

[CinCameron20]

Either way, I do see him losing an eye as a result. Doflamingo being wounded or not would depend on the alternative that occurs, but once Izanagi has been pulled out, Doflamingo will fight while retreating into the skies carrying Luffy (again, he would be absolutely stupid if he let Luffy die especially after seeing Izanagi). If Madara is too tired, he'd likely try to restore his chakra while Hashirama tries to shoot Doflamingo from the skies. Doflamingo would likely have problems if he can not create any more awakened threads (since he has not been shown that he can do so from the skies, but he can still control the threads he already created) but he'd still have an advantage over Hashirama's large ranged attacks (especially if he isn't in Sage mode or has the energy to use an attack that is near in power to his most powerful) with the use of Spider Thread and that he can move freely in the sky while Bird Cage is active.

If Doflamingo tries to attack Madara, he'll soften his defenses against Hashirama, so he'd likely try to fight against Hashirama while keeping an eye on Madara (as well as keeping his distance... I mean why wouldn't he after seeing that Madara could seemingly use an afterimage trick to get in close).

Hashirama could go ahead and try to use all of his energy to take down Doflamingo, but he'd be out of the fight due to exhaustion and by the time that happens, Luffy would most likely be up given that it is very very likely for Doflamingo to survive against both for 10 minutes (unless, as stated, Hashirama expends his energy to take him down).

I see either Doflamingo being taken out after a final lengthy skirmish against both Hashirama and Luffy finishing the fight with Gear 4th strikes to both Madara and Hashirama, who would be worn out OR I would see Doflamingo holding out while Hashirama reserves his remaining chakra and Luffy coming back to take out Hashirama and forces Madara to focus his defenses on Luffy's last strikes and either Luffy or Doflamingo ending the fight while Madara/Hashirama takes out the other.

The chances of both Luffy and Doflamingo surviving is very slim given that Madara's susanoo attacks are just what are needed to destroy Luffy's rubber body and Hashirama's blunt force would be too much for Doflamingo to simply defend against and would cause him to take severe damage and immediately resort to his Awakened mode. Both would be heavily reliant on their speed and would have to spend their time whittling down Team Naruto's defenses. Doflamingo could take on Madara's strikes more effectively given his superior physical capabilities and haki as opposed to Luffy's and he could also slow down or even halt some strikes coming from the susanoo and Hashirama's wood golem with Spider Thread and his awakening.

having 3+x Team Naruto's speed and Doflamingo's environmental manipulation paired with Luffy's Gear 4th strikes are what should give Team OP the win, imo.

 

[KazarianFahs]

Yea, but you seem to miss the point the izanagi "revives" and writes off all damage done to you, except the one eye, so post izanagi madara is basically fresh, that'll play a huge factor.

 

[CinCameron20]

Alright guys, Doflamingo and Luffy were upgraded to High 7-A. I now think that they can take this fight with relative mid/high difficulty rather than high/Extreme difficulty.

I'll probably give Madara a little more freedom so that he isn't an underdog, though... I don't want to give him access to Kurama due to it making it technically 3 vs 2, but Kurama wouldn't be able to act on his own given that he is being controlled by Madara.

Screw it, I'll give Madara access to Kurama. (makes edit in rules)

 

[Comic_rider]

madara and hashirama

 

[CinCameron20]

^ ... i don't understand why no one ever explains "They win because of this, this, this and this. They can also..."

 

[Kaptain2345]

I think Luffy and Flamingo win this fight,because too character have more speed than hashi and madara.

And Doflamingos Df is very max hax,he can control Hashirama and 3vs1 cant fight madara alone.

Luffy g4 can tank every big attack,he is very strong and he have faster than madara,he beat him.

Luffy and Mingo win this fight.

 

[CinCameron20]

bump. and if anyone who already voted earlier on can come and restate their vote (since there was an OP upgrade) perhaps you'll see this fight going somewhat differently.

 

[KazarianFahs]

this is a pretty straight match now,saying that this is a "mismatch" won't be wrong ,anyways,Luffy and flamingo win 10/10,mid diff.

 

[Comic_rider]

^ ... i don't understand why no one ever explains "They win because of this, this, this and this. They can also..."

finnnnnnne the main reason is i've seen flamingo fight someone i forget who it was he had a big hat but whatever during that fight flamingo easily cut threw a few trees and but he didn't just cut threw the whole jungle if he couldn't do that what use is he against the first hokage who can create entire forest with one move andd not even get tired. i'd like to compare luffy to tsunade since he's honestly just super strong tsunade was able to break rib susanoo at her peak and take down a few incomplete susanoo but was so scared of perfect susanoo that she couldn't even move so tell me how can luffy face madara with his perfect susanoo better yet can luffy even destroy a meteor?

 

[CinCameron20]

? Doflamingo and Fujitora were simply chasing after Law in Greenbit. Why cause unnecessary destruction. Given how Law's power works, if they obliterated the forest, it would work to Law's advantage.

Tsunade's AP is Town level. Doflamingo's is Small Island likely higher.

Luffy's AP in base is comparable to Doflamingo's. Gear 4th is superior to Doflamingo in terms of AP.

@ Kazarian I wouldn't say it is a mismatch given that Madara and Hashirama are both High 7-A (since I just gave Madara access to Kurama) and Hashirama has impressive healing capabilities.

 

[Comic_rider]

? Doflamingo and Fujitora were simply chasing after Law in Greenbit. Why cause unnecessary destruction. Given how Law's power works, if they obliterated the forest, it would work to Law's advantage.
Tsunade's AP is Town level. Doflamingo's is Small Island likely higher.

Luffy's AP in base is comparable to Doflamingo's. Gear 4th is superior to Doflamingo in terms of AP.

@ Kazarian I wouldn't say it is a mismatch given that Madara and Hashirama are both High 7-A (since I just gave Madara access to Kurama) and Hashirama has impressive healing capabilities.

i see but it still didn't answer my question

 

[KazarianFahs]

The only thing in favour of madara and hashi was the sheer OHK potential and now that is gone,and also they are at an advantage at speed,while they might have comparatively more hax,it just isn't enough to take down someone faster than them and wouldn't go down with their strongest moves combined,Doflamingo will basically regenerate from anything,and as genjustu or anysort of mindfux isn't allowed,there's nothing madara can do to doflamingo,especially since he hasn't shown to be able to use ametarusu or any sort of kekkei genkai like lava or dust release that might have worked on doflamingo,probably,and luffy with Island level dura and enhanced resistance to blunt force trauma is essentially immune to hashirama,while madara and hashirama might put up a fight,flamingo and luffy have way too many advantages in their favour,while it may be a "mismatch" or not,it isn't really unclear.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Cosmic

Luffy wouldn't need to destroy Madara's meteorites. He has the speed necessary to evade the impact completely. But he would be able to destroy the meteorites without much fuss if Onoki and Gaara could stop one of them with their power.

Perfect Susanoo is listed as 7-A (Edo tensei perfect susanoo is far superior due to Madara having Hashirama's cells to enhance his capabilities... but this is using Alive Madara) and was unable to take the brunt of Hashirama's True Thousand Hands, which is listed as Small Island. Luffy could break into it and reach Madara with some difficulty.

I'll disable Luffy's Gear 4th from this fight.

 

[Comic_rider]

you all forget izangi madara uchiha could use it and reverse the damage at will till he finds a way plus he could just reflect everything they do with his fan

 

[CinCameron20]

Izanagi isn't infinite. It will cost him his eye in the end. Danzo could only use it 1 minute per eye, but a Mangekyo Sharingan can likely use it for around 10 minutes (Obito using Shisui's eye to survive against Konan's explosives).

Luffy has precognition due to his adept level in Observation haki and thus has enhanced reaction speeds.

 

[KazarianFahs]

you all forget izangi madara uchiha could use it and reverse the damage at will till he finds a way plus he could just reflect everything they do with his fan

jeeeeeeeeeeeez

i wish,it were true tho

 

[Comic_rider]

Izanagi isn't infinite. It will cost him his eye in the end. Danzo could only use it 1 minute per eye, but a Mangekyo Sharingan can likely use it for around 10 minutes (Obito using Shisui's eye to survive against Konan's explosives).
Luffy has precognition due to his adept level in Observation haki and thus has enhanced reaction speeds.

but as itachi said once you get the eternal you have eternal light which madara has meaning he can freely use it and reverse the damage like he did when he fought hashirama

 

[Comic_rider]

you all forget izangi madara uchiha could use it and reverse the damage at will till he finds a way plus he could just reflect everything they do with his fan

jeeeeeeeeeeeez
i wish,it were true tho

it is madara has the eternal one and the regular one and regular sharingan which he switches threw freely

 

[CinCameron20]

Actually, it suggested that anyone with EMS would not have to worry about losing their light when using the 3 special abilities (Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoo). Izanagi grants the user the ability to avoid taking damage at the cost of one of their sharingan.

 

[Comic_rider]

Actually, it suggested that anyone with EMS would not have to worry about losing their light when using the 3 special abilities (Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoo). Izanagi grants the user the ability to avoid taking damage at the cost of one of their sharingan.

then how'd madara use it and keep both off his?

 

[CinCameron20]

bump

 

[LlamaGod1411]

I do not really remember Madara using Izanagi, but quoting the wiki


"As with many Sharingan-based techniques, the Izanagi can be implanted into one's Sharingan to trigger the technique even after the user has already died; Madara demonstrated such usage after his actual death, as opposed to merely negating a mortal wound"


So not too sure about that.


Whoever Madara is facing, he could just fake his death and hopefull take his opponent out, by surprise.


Round 1


First, to Madara vs Doffy, from what I see is DC, would go to Madara(with PS&Tengai Shinsei), durability, I'm not too sure about, leaning towards Madara, from his PS, Speed, I'm going with Doffy( I have a different opinion, but most people dont care about it).

While I believe Doffy massively outspeeds and would win this fight, there is always a small probability that Madara would use Izanagi and trick Doffy.


Luffy vs Hashi(similar stats as the above two characters), could go either way, but I'm leaning towards Hashirama due to him being able to capture/trap Luffy(With his Wood Techniques&Myoujinmon), and proceed to cut him into ribbons with a Kunai?(Assuming Equipment is allowed).


Round 2

Inconclusive on both matches.


Round 3

As a team, I'm pretty sure that Madara+Hashirama compliment each other a hundred times better than Doffy+Luffy. The only real advantage OP team has here is speed.

Hashirama&Madara could use their strongest Suiton&Katon attacks at the same time, create steam, which would be the favorable condition for T2, as they have Hashirama who has powerful sensing abilities(Note- Usually can sense only Chakra, but I'm making an exception here), and could take them both out.

And the Sharingan Does have PreCog abilities, as stated in the show, but to a minor extent.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Llama

I think that I should inform you about Luffy and Doflamingo's ability to sense their opponents and predict what is about to happen via Observation haki. They both have pre-cognition.

In terms of AP and Durability: Doflamingo is equal with Sage Hashirama while using True thousand hands (both being at least Small Island) and Luffy being superior to Perfect Susanoo Madara (I recently allowed Kurama to be in the fight to give Madara some power in order to compete with them).

Your vote will be counted for Hashi + Madara for now unless these points have changed your mind on who would win.

 

[LlamaGod1411]

@Llama
I think that I should inform you about Luffy and Doflamingo's ability to sense their opponents and predict what is about to happen via Observation haki. They both have pre-cognition.

In terms of AP and Durability: Doflamingo is equal with Sage Hashirama while using True thousand hands (both being at least Small Island) and Luffy being superior to Perfect Susanoo Madara (I recently allowed Kurama to be in the fight to give Madara some power in order to compete with them).

Your vote will be counted for Hashi + Madara for now unless these points have changed your mind on who would win.

Uh didn't you restrict Observation Haki?


You restricted G4.


Anyways, my opinion was based on the fact that No Obs. Haki, No Kurama & No G4.


If Kurama is allowed, Kurama is like what? Continent Level?

It would be an easy win in Madara's favor.

 

[Akuto_Sai12]

Madara is enough via hax

 

[CinCameron20]

@Llama Refer to their pages. Madara would be using the High 7-A Kurama (Which would be hypnotized under his control)

I did not restrict Observation haki. I restricted CoC haki. Other forms of haki are allowed.

Madara is 7-A with susanoo... high 7-A when he is using Kurama

@Akuto inform me when you have any reasoning behind who wins and why.