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Doctor Who Discussion Thread

Oliver_de_jesus said:
I think that in general terms they commonly consider it at number 5 or 6 or even 4 outside the wiki.

Top 1: It depends who you ask
Top 2: SCP civilizations like the foundation at its peak
Top 3/4/5/6: Downstreamers/Xeelee/Time Lord/Latveria (Simply because Doctor Doom is Doctor Doom)

The list depends a lot on how you interpret some things, since it can vary, but I think the top 6 or 5 for the time lords is fine.

This in terms of Technology, not by power because they are Gods that's why I didn't put Marvel's Beyonders, because they themselves technically cheat since they are naturally that strong instead of it being a matter of their technology

Also note that you can swap them with their respective enemies like the Daleks, I just don't want to put the same verses
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In terms of versatility, they must be at the top. The technology is very versatile, in everything.
 
Oliver_de_jesus said:
I think that in general terms they commonly consider it at number 5 or 6 or even 4 outside the wiki.

Top 1: It depends who you ask
Top 2: SCP civilizations like the foundation at its peak
Top 3/4/5/6: Downstreamers/Xeelee/Time Lord/Latveria (Simply because Doctor Doom is Doctor Doom)

The list depends a lot on how you interpret some things, since it can vary, but I think the top 6 or 5 for the time lords is fine.

This in terms of Technology, not by power because they are Gods that's why I didn't put Marvel's Beyonders, because they themselves technically cheat since they are naturally that strong instead of it being a matter of their technology

Also note that you can swap them with their respective enemies like the Daleks, I just don't want to put the same verses
Click to expand...
If you support the idea that "The Enemy"/Faction Paradox were the writers, you could probably convince a lot of off-site people that they could contend with SCP. Of course it ain't that simple here or in general for powerscaling, but for a casual setting yeahl.
 
If i remeber correctly, in one episode humans were able to survive up until the end of the universe and the Doctor said something about the base form being returned to even after gazillion years of evolution. is there any other sources saying that? or even why that is?
 
Also the Doctors always talks about Humanities' potential. Do they become top tier civilizations like the Time Lords and Daleks during the time war
 
I don't remember them ever explicitly/successfully reaching the level of Daleks/Time Lords in terms of super weapons and such in canon (at least not in the current timelines), but there are a few instances of interstellar/intergalactic-stage human vessels fighting Dalek vessels during the Time War.

Keep in mind, though, they could have been outdated Dalek craft that were pulled out of mothballs for the war effort. Also, post-humanity throughout the year 10-13 million is depicted as being far inferior to the Time Lords.
 
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Rutæhh said:
If i remeber correctly, in one episode humans were able to survive up until the end of the universe and the Doctor said something about the base form being returned to even after gazillion years of evolution. is there any other sources saying that? or even why that is?
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It was the episode of 12th Doctor?
 
See part 1 for context. Some of what I'm saying just won't make sense otherwise (not that it'll make much sense, either way).
I was wrong, and Morbius died on Karn. He survived in mental form by literally living rent free in one of the Veritas' (a Hydran) mind.

Rassilon/the Elite stripped Time Lord dissenters of the ability to Regenerate (explicitly described as 'Time Lord gifts' in a way that might imply even non-Time Lord Gallifreyans can't regenerate), and Argento was one such dissenter before her death, so the Time Lords reinstated her Time Lady status by reinstilling her with a Regeneration cycle (not just one Regeneration).

Speaking of which, Argento (who personally met Rassilon) is The Collective's mother, and her aversion to Regeneration was passed onto him.

Morbius claimed to once have had the reach of the entire galaxy.

Although Morbius' Battleships lost to Karn's, Veritas claims that many of Morbius' ships were superior in at least design/sophistication. Despite it literally having been said right in front of Proteus crewmen, the claim doesn't offend anyone, isn't contested, and isn't in any way treated as wrong/arrogant.

Even unregenerated dissenter Gallifreyans have 'thick, stubborn minds' that render mind manipulation difficult.

Morbius is said to have slaughtered a thousand worlds.

Morbius' temple/torture chamber (basically treated as his own Berghof) is on a tundra Vortex isle (called the Isle of the Dead), and has State of Grace technology that stabilised the horrific effects of Argento's induced Regeneration (including her vision problems).

Temporal art of the Civil War in the temple includes the Siege of Skaro, the return of the Vampires (who were 'typically' on their own side), and various 'new instances' that get added to the collection after 'com[ing] to light'. These art works fluctuate, but Morbius' fall on Karn is always there due to being a fixed point in time. The Sisterhood's witchcraft is supposedly responsible for the fixed nature of the outcome.

Despite the Civil War officially ending last year (by Gallifreyan chronology), these art works are hundreds and even thousands of years old due to the nature of the Temple, where time passes differently.

The temple is kitted out with mirrors that act as a form of time window (which makes sense, given that mirrors are a commonly established time travel method in Doctor Who), allowing people to see other times and even interact with them to (at least) a limited degree.

For anyone who cares, the Pythia are mentioned.

The Horn of Rassilon can supposedly communicate to anyone across space-time.

Morbius is physically resurrected in full by his forces near the end of the story. TL;DR his mind possessed the Proteus' XO, and he used the tundra of the Isle to reshape the XO's body to match his original form.
 
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Still think Ruby's Mother is the Trickster.

The Pantheon can clearly dislike eachother, and have opportunities to become stronger, so i think Trickster is actively trying to plot against Sutekh
 
57096998-10213321822497968-5057670792469282816-o.jpg
 
I want to ask what the wiki treats the War in Heaven as, since I read the series recently including Faction Paradox. Is it treated as different or same to the Time War and is any scaling from it used?
 
Abscoolguy said:
I want to ask what the wiki treats the War in Heaven as, since I read the series recently including Faction Paradox. Is it treated as different or same to the Time War and is any scaling from it used?
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It will be used for the scaling of the Time Lords to a certain extent, the first years of War in Heaven tech not change, and when we reach 50 years it will get a different scale because half of the war had a reset and the timeline was changed to be the Last Time War, however the Time Lords Profile will have two Keys, each one for the wars they suffered

More because in the first more modified biodata agents were used to fight directly more mundane wars (Wave-soldiers) while in the Last Time War they went pure Gallifreyan with some modifications and other species along with a greater attempt at temporal sabotage
 
Abscoolguy said:
I want to ask what the wiki treats the War in Heaven as, since I read the series recently including Faction Paradox. Is it treated as different or same to the Time War and is any scaling from it used?
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What I'm planning for is that it's to be treated kind of like Shada.

For context, the WIH is a redundant timeline due to several reasons (The events of The Ancestor Cell/Gallifrey Chronicles, Romana II never regenerating into Romana III in Intervention Earth and Enemy Lines, and Chris Cwej erasing the war from history in Down The Middle).

So, basically, any statement that refers to the Time Lords in general or their past is applicable. Anything that's war-specific (like combat forms and Type 103 TARDISes) will get regulated to WIH keys that I'm planning.

It's worth noting that the opening of the Time War is set even further into the Time Lords' future than the War in Heaven's opening (possibly at least 200 years), so they probably made similar advances while combatting the Daleks, especially given that the standard Battle TARDIS by the war's first year is the 120-form rather than humanoid 103-105-forms.
 
Sounds good.

Also semi related but should there be some kinda restriction on the Doctor until the revisions are done in terms of vs threads? I mean I'm asking because this recent thread of him vs Kratos became such a clusterfuck from the fact the profiles are outdated and there's so much confusion around his abilities
 
Abscoolguy said:
Is there a thread where the revisions are? I just wanna follow it
Click to expand...
No for now, waiting @ByAsura however, all can help with small profiles Characters such as Jack Harkness
vsbattles.fandom.com

Captain Jack Harkness

Captain Jack Harkness... and who are you?Jack Harkness's greetings "Captain Jack Harkness" was the alias adopted by Time Agent and con artist Javic Piotr Thane from the 51st century who later became an associate and occasional companion of the Doctor. After he was killed by a Dalek in battle, he...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
a meh finale.
Seth cloned the tardis and boasted its perception filter to create susan. She is an idea who gain existence after being broadcasted across time and space. Everwhere the doctor landed she was being created. He used her to spread his death across time and space, every planet in the universe died across time even the daleks. He also can mind control people across time.

The reveal of ruby mother was boring and dumb. Seth defeat was just a repeat of the last time, again dragged to the time vortex.
 
Setsuna_tenma said:
a meh finale.
Seth cloned the tardis and boasted its perception filter to create susan. She is an idea who gain existence after being broadcasted across time and space. Everwhere the doctor landed she was being created. He used her to spread his death across time and space, every planet in the universe died across time even the daleks. He also can mind control people across time.

The reveal of ruby mother was boring and dumb. Seth defeat was just a repeat of the last time, again dragged to the time vortex
Click to expand...
Wait how tf he get dragged into the vortex is he’s supposed to be above it 💀
 
The Horn of Rassilon creates a hard light (explicitly actual light, but solid) projection of the 4th Doctor (apparently since he was a Lord President) from the relative future through the Matrix, and places him on the Isle of the Dead with a temporal transmat. Naturally, this copy has the 4th Doctor's memories, and it can even bleed, possibly use biometric controls, and have mental battles (in the exact same vein as Omega and The Doctor's mental scuffle).

Morbius says Time Lord battleships would blot out the sky if they knew about his return, so they definitely have loads of them. Also, he strongly implies that Gallifrey-scale time manipulation can violate fixed events within Gallifrey's own time stream (more specifically, allowing him to interact with and guide his past self to make his ascension easier).

For anyone who's unaware, it's very difficult for Time Lords to travel to Gallifrey's past, let alone manipulate it, due to both linearity and the Transduction Barrier. This is why The Doctor, Master and co almost always appear on Gallifrey in the proper sequence. So, the ability to pull any of that off (especially violating fixed events) requires decently high-order physics manipulation, not just astronomically powerful time manipulation.

The Doctor describes Battleships like the Proteus and the techniques used to construct it as very primitive.

A guy who fell in the Vortex and had to be fished out in part 1 (I didn't mention him earlier) describes himself as 'time. I am all time, I am no time', and says he's lost the hands on his clock. So, yeah, more proof that the Vortex is both omnitemporal and atemporal.

Morbius' temple is a super-sized TARDIS with chameleon abilities and a forcefield (one strong enough to repel the Proteus), and its emergency programme was transmitting info to him while he was living in Veritas' mind.

One of Morbius' future incarnations sent the temple to him, along with instructions to raise an army from 'Dark Gallifrey'. Since the Isle of the Dead experiences time weirdly and exists in the the Vortex—'l[ying] on the shores of paradox'—the plan can actually work and potentially override the timeline the 4th Doctor is from.

The exterior of Morbius' temple is a time rotor. Activating it creates a Vortex gateway to 'Dark Gallifrey' and causes most of the occupants (his 'most devout') to age to death (Morbius calls this a ritual). But, the Proteus' Vortex refractor technology closes it before the gateway fully opens.

We don't get a lot of details on Dark Gallifrey, but it's apparently where future Morbius gathers his armies of non-elite Time Lord dissenters. Logically, I think it'd also have to be at least somewhat atemporal for the plan not to violate the laws of linearity, and the story's treatment of Dark Gallifrey as some otherworldly place that's difficult to find seems to lend this credence.

The Civil War was described as 'a war that consumed all' and 'a war that nearly destroyed the cosmos.' Morbius says 'the Time Lords were so scared of what I represented they'd rather obliterate reality than admit I was right', and The Doctor replies 'I gather you were equally obliterative.' Only one side had access to The Eye of Harmony, so they were outputting reality-destroying levels of firepower with superweaponry and stuff, not specifically the Eye.

The supposed charisma that Morbius used to cause the Civil War is actually 'aggressive' mental control. My guy has pretty insane psionic powers when you consider A) Gallifreyans were significantly more telepathic in the past, and B) Time Lord mental defences are very strong. The Doctor can resist it, and it's implied Morbius won the mind bending competition in The Brain of Morbius because of his mental influence.
 
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Setsuna_tenma said:
a meh finale.
Seth cloned the tardis and boasted its perception filter to create susan. She is an idea who gain existence after being broadcasted across time and space. Everwhere the doctor landed she was being created. He used her to spread his death across time and space, every planet in the universe died across time even the daleks. He also can mind control people across time.

The reveal of ruby mother was boring and dumb. Seth defeat was just a repeat of the last time, again dragged to the time vortex.
Click to expand...
Lol wait you know the reveal that he was attached to the TARDIS the whole time since Pyramids of Mars. Doesn't that:

A: Contradict every single other appearance of him in extended media when he's not connected to the TARDIS

B: Give him some kinda feat for everytime the TARDIS was destroyed/damaged etc since he survives that
 
Abscoolguy said:
Lol wait you know the reveal that he was attached to the TARDIS the whole time since Pyramids of Mars. Doesn't that:

A: Contradict every single other appearance of him in extended media when he's not connected to the TARDIS

B: Give him some kinda feat for everytime the TARDIS was destroyed/damaged etc since he survives that
Click to expand...
Given The Star Beast ignoring the literal origin of Beep The Meep, I wonder if they're just torching Doctor Who continuity.

Which is a damn shame, because RTD and Moffat were known for adhering pretty well to the BF continuity (like making the Eta Prime Incident the point of no return for the Time War, and referencing all of the 8th Doctor's companions in Night of The Doctor) and making very obscure references to the EU in general.
 
ByAsura said:
Given The Star Beast ignoring the literal origin of Beep The Meep, I wonder if they're just torching Doctor Who continuity.

Which is a damn shame, because RTD and Moffat were known for adhering pretty well to the BF continuity (like making the Eta Prime Incident the point of no return for the Time War, and referencing all of the 8th Doctor's companions in Night of The Doctor) and making very obscure references to the EU in general.
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Maybe it could be a horcrux situation, the comics establish part of him exists within Anubis so why can’t he have done that here?

Maybe he was in the Void and projected part of himself through time to the TARDIS after he was defeated in the comics?
 
Lowkey they coulda just written off bi-generation as a form of regeneration in intense stress. As in when a Time-lord's stress is too intense to keep going properly, it'll skip to a further regeneration in time thats somewhat healed to a manageable degree. And its so rare cause Timelords only get 12 regenerations at base, and theres none other that have lived as ling as the Doctor atp.

thr Human Body has its own reactions and defense schemes against stress, so it woulda flowed naturally in comparison to timelords, who are like humans but obviously of a higher dimension

Also Empire of Death was so mid. Idk why RTD teases us with Ruby's mother, then needs to try and flip the script in a way that doesnt make sense. I was ready for the Trickster return.
 
I get what you mean, but it's poorly phrased because he does become The Curator either way.
PrinceNine said:
Anyone know how they explain this in novel? Just curious.
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They kind of don't beyond calling them old Doctor and new Doctor.

Initially, the 14th Doctor thinks he's a blip that's supposed to be absorbed by the 15th, but this is proven wrong, and the 15th later implies the 14th is his past like in the episode.

On another note, my guy bi-regenerated 15 hours after being born.
  • ‘The last time you regenerated, on that clifftop, do you know when that was?’ Well, that had been – let him think, Daleks, Meep, Newton, Spaceship, Toymaker … ‘Er …?’ ‘About 15 hours ago. That’s all.’ ‘Wow.’
 
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Oliver_de_jesus said:
Doesn't Suketh have the ability to break his soul and sow it as life insurance?
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As per the comics he does, so I wonder if that's what he did here. That said,the Doctor seems to say outright that they only met the once. Also,does anyone notice that Sutekh tears the Vortex walls? I kinda wonder if he's on par with or above the Vortex but it's got hax that can kill even a being of his scale?
ByAsura said:
On another note, my guy bi-regenerated 15 hours after being born.
  • ‘The last time you regenerated, on that clifftop, do you know when that was?’ Well, that had been – let him think, Daleks, Meep, Newton, Spaceship, Toymaker … ‘Er …?’ ‘About 15 hours ago. That’s all.’ ‘Wow.’
Click to expand...
Crazy stamina feat for 14
 
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