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Doctor Who Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Oliver_de_jesus
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Hasty12345
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It would have been weird for the BBC to launch the TLV arc with so much promotion then have it end with “and then the doctor forgot” 
Hasty12345
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60th anniversary brought Tennant back just to not do an on screen TLV story
Oliver_de_jesus
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Talking about this, someone know if we will get more episode in life action with Tennant/14th Doctor?
Colonel_Krukov
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I'm sure there'll be plenty of EU stuff, I'd love to see the 10th and 14th reactions to each other for sure. Outside of that, most likely is going to be anniversary/special episodes.
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Hasty12345
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any progress on CRT 1.2?
Hasty12345
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bump?
Hasty12345
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Awesome I'm happy to help in any way I can
Hasty12345
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Anytime.
No rush, a well structured CRT goes a long way in and of itself, so it's worth the effort.
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Hasty12345
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Is this new?
Hasty12345
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the title is very interesting, I'm always excited for more Gallifrey lore
Oliver_de_jesus
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would be Morbius or the Master?
Hasty12345
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Oliver_de_jesus
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ohhhhh nice
Oliver_de_jesus
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Now that I think about it, could this be before Morbius was sentenced to atomization or after?
Well, I don't think much of his past was explored when he tried to get Gallifrey to try to break the law of non-interference.
Well, I don't think much of his past was explored when he tried to get Gallifrey to try to break the law of non-interference.
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1.1. Dark Gallifrey: Morbius Part 1 - Dark Gallifrey - Big Finish
Award-winning, full-cast original audio dramas from the worlds of Doctor Who, Torchwood, Blake's 7, Class, Dark Shadows, The Avengers, Survivors, The Omega Factor, Star Cops, Sherlock Holmes, Dorian Gray, Pathfinder Legends, The Prisoner, Adam Adamant Lives, Space 1999, Timeslip, Terrahawks...
I'll make a spoiler tag about the good shit in the story.
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TL;DR Shortly after Rassilon's time, Morbius took over Gallifrey, and proceeded to conquer planets across large swathes of the universe via battle fleets and mass-scale time manipulation, but was effectively defeated by the incumbent president's new battleships. This takes place after Morbius' civil war officially ended, but prior to his defeat and execution.
The incumbent Lord President, and Morbius' competitor in the Civil War, was Rassilon's first successor.
Morbius originally conquered Gallifrey in 1 week. His forces (who are very biased, keep in mind) described him as the 'conqueror of a thousand worlds'.
Compared to the rest of the universe, the Time Lords were considered gods, and their fight spread across the universe, sweeping up entire systems. Morbius also used alien soldiers in his war effort.
Since the war was so soon after Rassilon, the Time Lords (primarily Morbius' faction) used the war to test their 'new' mastery over time, shredding timelines to ribbons, and causing the dead to agonisingly resurrect in perpetuity.
The tide turned when the Lord President's forces retreated to Karn and constructed Vortex-capable battleships. The Time Lords saved Karn from 'utter destruction' at the hands of Morbius' forces, and re-took Gallifrey.
This story takes place after Morbius' forces were (in large part) defeated, and scattered into pockets.
If a Time Lord falls into the Vortex, they'll be torn apart in seconds, but the experience lasts for centuries from their own perspective.
It's implied the battleships are nowhere near as advanced as even the obsolete TARDISes of The Doctor's time, as they require a type of mast to scatter the Vortex's chaotic energies. However, they are dimensionally transcendental.
Said battleships engaged Morbius' own vessels in the Vortex rifts between Karn and Gallifrey during Karn's defence, tearing that section of the Vortex badly enough for Time Lord battleships to receive heavy damage during transit (crews are aged decades by the Vortex's energies in the process). The Battleship Proteus is forced to skim the Vortex at sub-maximum speed to survive, lengthening the journey to the point where it was taking, in a sense (the Vortex's nature even muddles with relative time on ships), well over 8 weeks due to navigational problems.
Crows are Vortex creatures. The Civil War scared them all away, and they settled on 'lots of different worlds'.
Parts of Battleships are apparently constructed from a type of gravity well-soaked Gallifreyan timber.
Regenerations and second hearts aren't a natural component of Time Lord biology by this time. The current captain of Proteus died defending Karn from Morbius' forces, and was afforded the highest battle commendation the Time Lords could give: a Regeneration, which granted her a second heart. It's strongly implied that this mostly happens with high-born Gallifreyans.
Filling even a vial with the Sisterhood of Karn's Elixirs takes centuries.
The Time Lords (purportedly the Lord President's side) devastated the Hydrans and their planet by dropping huge shards of its own future ('dark tomorrows') onto it like bombs.
The incumbent Lord President, and Morbius' competitor in the Civil War, was Rassilon's first successor.
Morbius originally conquered Gallifrey in 1 week. His forces (who are very biased, keep in mind) described him as the 'conqueror of a thousand worlds'.
Compared to the rest of the universe, the Time Lords were considered gods, and their fight spread across the universe, sweeping up entire systems. Morbius also used alien soldiers in his war effort.
Since the war was so soon after Rassilon, the Time Lords (primarily Morbius' faction) used the war to test their 'new' mastery over time, shredding timelines to ribbons, and causing the dead to agonisingly resurrect in perpetuity.
The tide turned when the Lord President's forces retreated to Karn and constructed Vortex-capable battleships. The Time Lords saved Karn from 'utter destruction' at the hands of Morbius' forces, and re-took Gallifrey.
This story takes place after Morbius' forces were (in large part) defeated, and scattered into pockets.
If a Time Lord falls into the Vortex, they'll be torn apart in seconds, but the experience lasts for centuries from their own perspective.
It's implied the battleships are nowhere near as advanced as even the obsolete TARDISes of The Doctor's time, as they require a type of mast to scatter the Vortex's chaotic energies. However, they are dimensionally transcendental.
Said battleships engaged Morbius' own vessels in the Vortex rifts between Karn and Gallifrey during Karn's defence, tearing that section of the Vortex badly enough for Time Lord battleships to receive heavy damage during transit (crews are aged decades by the Vortex's energies in the process). The Battleship Proteus is forced to skim the Vortex at sub-maximum speed to survive, lengthening the journey to the point where it was taking, in a sense (the Vortex's nature even muddles with relative time on ships), well over 8 weeks due to navigational problems.
Crows are Vortex creatures. The Civil War scared them all away, and they settled on 'lots of different worlds'.
Parts of Battleships are apparently constructed from a type of gravity well-soaked Gallifreyan timber.
Regenerations and second hearts aren't a natural component of Time Lord biology by this time. The current captain of Proteus died defending Karn from Morbius' forces, and was afforded the highest battle commendation the Time Lords could give: a Regeneration, which granted her a second heart. It's strongly implied that this mostly happens with high-born Gallifreyans.
Filling even a vial with the Sisterhood of Karn's Elixirs takes centuries.
The Time Lords (purportedly the Lord President's side) devastated the Hydrans and their planet by dropping huge shards of its own future ('dark tomorrows') onto it like bombs.
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Hasty12345
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Very very interesting stuff
Oliver_de_jesus
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so surviving raw energy Time vortex allows you to resist deconstruction and age hax?
Oliver_de_jesus
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It also shows us how good Vortex technology is, I mean, a Vortex manipulator (like River and Captain Jack's) sure must be a feeling that makes you afraid that at any moment it will fail.
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In The Case of the Dissolving Man, it's also stated that a damaged Vortex Manipulator could incinerate 19th century London.
- Madame Vastra looked at Crane, coldly. “But that vortex manipulator is venting Artron energy at a dangerous rate. If you continue to use it for your teleportation trick you could incinerate London!”
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Interesting
Oliver_de_jesus
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Is not that trick that Missy did in magician's apprentice?
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I think in a Titan comic featuring the Twelfth Doctor, it's mentioned that the forces of the Time Vortex can destroy someone at a subatomic level.
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It's implied that Gallifreyan troops have decently powerful protections of some sort. For context, a Rutan (in actuality, a Sontaran-Rutan hybrid created by the Sontarans to bait the Rutans' destruction) infiltrated a Battle TARDIS with its abilities, and slaughtered the crew of a Time Lord space station that encroached on their territory. Normally, such a station guard would've been 'clearly capable of dispatching a mere Rutan', but the crew was limited due to the station being near the frontline, and the Rutan was believed to have acquired shielding and weaponry from the crew of the Battle TARDIS.
The Time Lords, at this point, were stretched too thin to potentially fight both the Daleks and the Rutans, and didn't want to encourage such behaviour from other 'minor' races, so the Time Lords were prepared to straight up erase Ruta III from all of space-time with a Battle TARDIS fleet. Similarly, the Rutans couldn't afford confronting even the Time Lords' diminished resources and the Sontarans simultaneously.
The Time War is said to take place 'beyond reality'.
The Time Lords and Sontarans have diplomatic relations of some sort, and the Time Lords even attempted to recruit them into an alliance. The Sontarans claim this is because Gallifrey don't have much experience with this kind of war, whereas the Daleks and Sontarans have been doing so for millennia.
A Sontaran Commander sees a TARDIS (specifically The Doctor's TARDIS) heading towards Sontar in the Vortex, and orders his adjunct to shoot it down. Normally, I'd say this is just Sontaran foolhardiness and ego, but the context and manner in which it's said leads me to believe the threat was at least somewhat serious. Plus, a Sontaran General later reiterates that The Doctor would've been fried before landing.
For reference, the planet Sontar, by this point, is reserved entirely for machinery of war (presumably including cloning berths), meaning that any diplomacy takes place on the battle fleet. So, the Commander could've been referring to his ship, the fleet in orbit, the defences of Sontar, or all of the above. Given what I mention below about the Rutan fleet, I think it's all of the above.
Sontaran genomes are normally incompatible with Rutan shapeshifting and hybridisation, and attempts to gather their DNA is extremely difficult due to Sontaran security.
Falling through the Vortex is maddening enough to 'break' Sontaran/Rutan minds (it makes them less insane, if anything).
Throughout the story, The Doctor and Skole (a Sontaran who was intertwined in these events due to his past with The Doctor) had visions of the universe being destroyed and time collapsing.
The erasure of Ruta III would create a grandfather paradox because if the Rutans never existed to attack the station, then the whole sequence of events that would've lead to their erasure wouldn't have existed either. The Time Lords planned to preserve the chronology by trapping the planet's destruction in an anomaly cage (explicitly The Heretic's design), removing cause but keeping effect.
However, this would've failed and caused the entire universe to collapse because the events of the story were also caught up in a bootstrap paradox (specifically, Sontarans in the future created Sontaran-Rutan hybrids that were lost in time and appeared at the Giant's Causeway, so the Rutans could create Rutan-Sontaran hybrids in the past, meaning that the Sontarans in the present could collect the Rutan-Sontaran hybrids that appeared at the Giant's Causeway), and the Anomaly Cage (if not all Time Lord technology) isn't designed to deal with two paradoxes that occur in separate time frames.
For reference, bootstrap paradoxes are very difficult to create, but it's a 'standard Wednesday' in the Time War. This is supported by The War Doctor casually being able to break the First Law of Time for the same reason in Exit Strategy.
It's implied that a war with the Time Lords (even during the Time War) would go very badly for the Sontarans.
Rutan ships can't break through TARDIS forcefields, but they do prevent the Time Lord fleet from dropping the 'planet-killer' (the same term used for the device in The Last Days of Freme, but presumably far more powerful) on Ruta III because the warships are forced to waste time (at least a matter of minutes) on obliterating the Rutans.
For reference, the Time Lords probably didn't just bombard the planet because of the circumstances involved; the planet-killer is a volatile (to the point where it'd detonate during Vortex transit), dimensionally transcendental (small enough on the outside to be held in The Doctor's hand) explosive device that's specially linked to drop the Anomaly Cage on Ruta III before detonating.
TARDIS forcefields stop other TARDISes from materialising inside them.
Sontarans are particularly non-time sensitive.
The Doctor's temporal grace is functional.
When The Doctor uses the planet-killer on the hybrids, it consigns everything in Sontarans vs Rutans to a somewhat distinct timeline due to the fact that it erased the crew from history (including Skole), but the events still happened in the normal timeline.
The Time Lords, at this point, were stretched too thin to potentially fight both the Daleks and the Rutans, and didn't want to encourage such behaviour from other 'minor' races, so the Time Lords were prepared to straight up erase Ruta III from all of space-time with a Battle TARDIS fleet. Similarly, the Rutans couldn't afford confronting even the Time Lords' diminished resources and the Sontarans simultaneously.
The Time War is said to take place 'beyond reality'.
The Time Lords and Sontarans have diplomatic relations of some sort, and the Time Lords even attempted to recruit them into an alliance. The Sontarans claim this is because Gallifrey don't have much experience with this kind of war, whereas the Daleks and Sontarans have been doing so for millennia.
A Sontaran Commander sees a TARDIS (specifically The Doctor's TARDIS) heading towards Sontar in the Vortex, and orders his adjunct to shoot it down. Normally, I'd say this is just Sontaran foolhardiness and ego, but the context and manner in which it's said leads me to believe the threat was at least somewhat serious. Plus, a Sontaran General later reiterates that The Doctor would've been fried before landing.
For reference, the planet Sontar, by this point, is reserved entirely for machinery of war (presumably including cloning berths), meaning that any diplomacy takes place on the battle fleet. So, the Commander could've been referring to his ship, the fleet in orbit, the defences of Sontar, or all of the above. Given what I mention below about the Rutan fleet, I think it's all of the above.
Sontaran genomes are normally incompatible with Rutan shapeshifting and hybridisation, and attempts to gather their DNA is extremely difficult due to Sontaran security.
Falling through the Vortex is maddening enough to 'break' Sontaran/Rutan minds (it makes them less insane, if anything).
Throughout the story, The Doctor and Skole (a Sontaran who was intertwined in these events due to his past with The Doctor) had visions of the universe being destroyed and time collapsing.
The erasure of Ruta III would create a grandfather paradox because if the Rutans never existed to attack the station, then the whole sequence of events that would've lead to their erasure wouldn't have existed either. The Time Lords planned to preserve the chronology by trapping the planet's destruction in an anomaly cage (explicitly The Heretic's design), removing cause but keeping effect.
However, this would've failed and caused the entire universe to collapse because the events of the story were also caught up in a bootstrap paradox (specifically, Sontarans in the future created Sontaran-Rutan hybrids that were lost in time and appeared at the Giant's Causeway, so the Rutans could create Rutan-Sontaran hybrids in the past, meaning that the Sontarans in the present could collect the Rutan-Sontaran hybrids that appeared at the Giant's Causeway), and the Anomaly Cage (if not all Time Lord technology) isn't designed to deal with two paradoxes that occur in separate time frames.
For reference, bootstrap paradoxes are very difficult to create, but it's a 'standard Wednesday' in the Time War. This is supported by The War Doctor casually being able to break the First Law of Time for the same reason in Exit Strategy.
It's implied that a war with the Time Lords (even during the Time War) would go very badly for the Sontarans.
Rutan ships can't break through TARDIS forcefields, but they do prevent the Time Lord fleet from dropping the 'planet-killer' (the same term used for the device in The Last Days of Freme, but presumably far more powerful) on Ruta III because the warships are forced to waste time (at least a matter of minutes) on obliterating the Rutans.
For reference, the Time Lords probably didn't just bombard the planet because of the circumstances involved; the planet-killer is a volatile (to the point where it'd detonate during Vortex transit), dimensionally transcendental (small enough on the outside to be held in The Doctor's hand) explosive device that's specially linked to drop the Anomaly Cage on Ruta III before detonating.
TARDIS forcefields stop other TARDISes from materialising inside them.
Sontarans are particularly non-time sensitive.
The Doctor's temporal grace is functional.
When The Doctor uses the planet-killer on the hybrids, it consigns everything in Sontarans vs Rutans to a somewhat distinct timeline due to the fact that it erased the crew from history (including Skole), but the events still happened in the normal timeline.
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Hasty12345
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I can't believe the feats this verse has with technology. I'm used to beings with some esoteric superpower or innate ability doing this kind of stuff, but Time Lords are doing this with technology and science. That's amazing.
Surely Time Lords are like a top 5 civilization in fiction?
Surely Time Lords are like a top 5 civilization in fiction?
Oliver_de_jesus
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I think that in general terms they commonly consider it at number 5 or 6 or even 4 outside the wiki.
Top 1: It depends who you ask
Top 2: SCP civilizations like the foundation at its peak
Top 3/4/5/6: Downstreamers/Xeelee/Time Lord/Latveria (Simply because Doctor Doom is Doctor Doom)
The list depends a lot on how you interpret some things, since it can vary, but I think the top 6 or 5 for the time lords is fine.
This in terms of Technology, not by power because they are Gods that's why I didn't put Marvel's Beyonders, because they themselves technically cheat since they are naturally that strong instead of it being a matter of their technology
Also note that you can swap them with their respective enemies like the Daleks, I just don't want to put the same verses
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