Doctor Who Discussion Thread

[Udlmaster]

What about with The Glory? Or has the definitions of the omniverse changed?

Omniverse is just a higher structure for the Multiverse.

But tbh, there's nothing to discuss with the Glory or the Grace, their importance is overblown considering the Grace show up in I think 3 audio books in total, and the Glory is in 1 story.

They're really not important at all.

 

[ByAsura]

The Glory would technically still be superior to the Lux Aeterna and the Key to Time, since the post-Bruce Master describes all his previous as absolutely futile by comparison to its power.

 

[Udlmaster]

The Glory would technically still be superior to the Lux Aeterna and the Key to Time, since the post-Bruce Master describes all his previous as absolutely futile by comparison to its power.

Naturally, the Glory is likely the largest structure in the verse, comparable only to the Probability Tree

 

[ByAsura]

I wanted to think that was the case, especially since it'd mean Time is Low 1-C, but I just can't agree.

Marc Platt uses the term Omniverse very liberally if you look into his works. For example, the Sixth Doctor describes the area of the Vortex he travels through as the omniverse.

It's almost exclusively presented as infinite possibilities and infinite universes, not multiverses.

 

[Udlmaster]

I wanted to think that was the case, especially since it'd mean Time is Low 1-C, but I just can't agree.

Marc Platt uses the term Omniverse very liberally if you look into his works. For example, the Sixth Doctor describes the area of the Vortex he travels through as the omniverse.

It's almost exclusively presented as infinite possibilities and infinite universes, not multiverses.

Well, problem is, is that before, the Time Vortex WAS the gateway to all other universe (Ala Spiral Scratch), but they changed that later on and it only got worse:

Because in New Who, they changed it so that alternate Universes start after the Time Vortex, with each Time Vortex being its own Universe, shown when Mickey, Rose and the Doctor fall through the Vortex in their Universe to another Vortex which the TARDIS can't draw energy from.

Some of the Old Who books put the Alternate Universes after the 11th Plane, that other Universes can have any amount of "rooms" in the Hotel that is the Universe as long as the laws of the Universe are different.

Then there's all the stuff about the Chronovores being able to access and eat Dead or dying Timelines, so it makes you wonder.


For me, I think Alternate Universes starts after the Time Vortex but before the Chronovore Planes.

Also, kinda another reason why I think the 11 Dimensions in Doctor Who are planes, not Dimensions in terms of Axes, is because at the level of the Void, which would sit between the Chronovore level and the Time Vortex, Dimensions no long matter, the Doctor just flat out says, the Void is undimensioned:

DOCTOR: The space between dimensions. There's all sorts of realities around us, billions of parallel universes all stacked up against each other. The Void is the space in between, containing absolutely nothing. Imagine that. Nothing. No light, no dark, no up, no down, no life, no time. Without end. My people called it the Void. The Eternals call it the Howling. But some people call it Hell.

RAJESH: But someone built the sphere. What for? Why go there?

DOCTOR: To explore? To escape? You could sit inside that thing and eternity would pass you by. The Big Bang, end of the Universe, start of the next, wouldn't even touch the sides. You'd exist outside the whole of creation.

Also, I love that name "The Howling"

Alternatively, you could put the Howling outside of the 11 Planes all together, as the Doctor says it's just outside of all creation.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

isn’t hierarchy like this?

Glory > grace > carnival queen > guardians of time > quantum arch Angel > Lampreys > Great old ones > swimmers > Chronovores

also wasn’t there a group of time lords called the celesti or something (the author writing them died I believe while working on the story)

 

[ByAsura]

Well, problem is, is that before, the Time Vortex WAS the gateway to all other universe (Ala Spiral Scratch), but they changed that later on and it only got worse:

Because in New Who, they changed it so that alternate Universes start after the Time Vortex, with each Time Vortex being its own Universe, shown when Mickey, Rose and the Doctor fall through the Vortex in their Universe to another Vortex which the TARDIS can't draw energy from.

It still is in a sense. The problem is that TARDISes always had protocols and ways to stop them from travelling to alternate universes, like dimension dams.

It's not impossible, but The Doctor is still only referring to a few universes here rather than an infinite selection.

Additionally, the alternate timeline in Blood Heat is described as a natural branch off the omniverse. Which (alongside Auld Morality and The Thief Who Stole Time) suggests that it's all the timelines and possible realities created by a core concept than all the infinite universes and domains.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Menti Celesti

The Menti Celesti were a group of deities which the ancient Gallifreyans worshipped during the Pythia's rule. They were made up of the leading Eternals, including Pain, Time, Death, (PROSE: Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible) Life, and Fate. (PROSE: Hark! The Herald Angels Sing) Death once explained...

tardis.fandom.com

 

[Udlmaster]

isn’t hierarchy like this?

Glory > grace > carnival queen > guardians of time > quantum arch Angel > Lampreys > Great old ones > swimmers > Chronovores

also wasn’t there a group of time lords called the celesti or something (the author writing them died I believe while working on the story)

From what I understand;

The Glory > Lux Aeterna >= Carnival Queen > Guardians of Time > Eternals > Chronovores > Lampreys > Greater Old Ones > Swimmers

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

From what I understand;

The Glory > Lux Aeterna >= Carnival Queen > Guardians of Time > Eternals > Chronovores > Lampreys > Greater Old Ones > Swimmers

What about the grace?

 

[Udlmaster]

What about the grace?

The Grace would be between the Carnival Queen and the Guardians of Time

 

[Tyranno223]

That feels a bit off. Isn't the Quantum Archangel meant to be equal to the Menti Celesti?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

That feels a bit off. Isn't the Quantum Archangel meant to be equal to the Menti Celesti?

It's supposed to be, I really don't think the archangel is stronger than the guardian but is on his level

 

[Udlmaster]

That feels a bit off. Isn't the Quantum Archangel meant to be equal to the Menti Celesti?

Menti Celesti are upwards of Omniversal/Multiversal beings.

Time and her creation, the Possibility Tree, extend throughout all Universes.

It's supposed to be, I really don't think the archangel is stronger than the guardian but is on his level

Who's 'The Guardian', if you mean The Guardians of Time, then, no, they can't beat her.

The Lux Aeterna was devastating the Universe and nothing could stop them

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Menti Celesti are upwards of Omniversal/Multiversal beings.

Time and her creation, the Possibility Tree, extend throughout all Universes.


Who's 'The Guardian', if you mean The Guardians of Time, then, no, they can't beat her.

The Lux Aeterna was devastating the Universe and nothing could stop them

What is the Lux aeterna exactly?

 

[Tyranno223]

Menti Celesti are upwards of Omniversal/Multiversal beings.

Time and her creation, the Possibility Tree, extend throughout all Universes.


Who's 'The Guardian', if you mean The Guardians of Time, then, no, they can't beat her.

The Lux Aeterna was devastating the Universe and nothing could stop them

The Six-Fold God operates beyond the universe does it not? The novelization of the Armageddon Factor specifically regards them as one of the figures in the Multiverse (called Omniverse in text) that can do anything.

Not to mention that the Doctor believed that the Six-Fold God could subdue the Quantum Archangel of they wished to (although his opponent naturally says otherwise, I trust the one who is more... sane).

 

[ByAsura]

That feels a bit off. Isn't the Quantum Archangel meant to be equal to the Menti Celesti?

At best, you'd get a possibly rating from the statement

• The Master was glad the Doctor was there to witness his apotheosis, but his spurious morality could become so very wearing. ‘I have every idea what I’m doing, Doctor: I am finally taking my rightful place amongst the pantheon of gods. Time? Pain? Death? Eternity? They will be my brothers and my sisters. The Guardians of Time? They will thank me for ridding the multiverse of their bastard children, the Chronovores. The Eternals? Perhaps I can take part in their games, risk everything for a taste of Enlightenment?’ In one smooth move, he drew out his tissuecompression eliminator..

The Six-Fold God operates beyond the universe does it not? The novelization of the Armageddon Factor specifically regards them as one of the figures in the Multiverse (called Omniverse in text) that can do anything.

That was Blood Heat by Marc Platt. As I've explained, his Omniverse is a little different from infinite multiverses.

Not to mention that the Doctor believed that the Six-Fold God could subdue the Quantum Archangel of they wished to (although his opponent naturally says otherwise, I trust the one who is more... sane).

True.

But it's worth noting that The Doctor believed there'd be a massive amount of cross-fire and devastation to the universe first, implying there'd at least be a fight.

So I'd rank them around the same level collectively.

 

[Tyranno223]

True.

But it's worth noting that The Doctor believed there'd be a massive amount of cross-fire and devastation to the universe first, implying there'd at least be a fight.

So I'd rank them around the same level collectively.

Well, I suppose having them be comparable makes sense in that context. Will Doctor Who be adopting the multiple continuity approach of SCP, Marvel and DC?

 

[ByAsura]

Technically, there's precedent.

Stories like Auld Morality (where that version of The Doctor can see alternate realities) and Neverland kind of imply that the Virgin New Adventures continuity (among others) is a different reality.

But, most of the new canon just implies that time is always changing, with possible histories (but not alternate timelines as such) withering and fluxing until they reach the dominant timeline that the Time Lords maintain.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

,

I have a question, what exactly is the lux aeterna?

 

[ByAsura]

Basically, when the universe was first made, there were 11 spatio-temporal dimensions.

5 of them fought for dominance and won, with 4 becoming space-time, and the 5th becoming the 2nd dimension of time (the Time Vortex).

The other 6 that lost melded into one reality called the Six-Fold Realm that knots through the lesser 5 dimensions.

Where the 6 dimensions cross the 5, there's an innumerable number of pin-point singularities, each no larger than a quark but with the potential energy of a quasar.

All of the singularities, linked together through space-time, make up the 11th dimensional framework of the cosmos called the Lux Aeterna.

 

[Udlmaster]

True.

But it's worth noting that The Doctor believed there'd be a massive amount of cross-fire and devastation to the universe first, implying there'd at least be a fight.

So I'd rank them around the same level collectively.

I definitely felt that the Doctor was just grasping at names he could drop, since in the same breath he mentioned the Eternals, which in the same book was considered less than Insects to the Six-Fold God.

Also, it's very in character for the Doctor to just drop names on people to get them to back down.

But, most of the new canon just implies that time is always changing, with possible histories (but not alternate timelines as such) withering and fluxing until they reach the dominant timeline that the Time Lords maintain.

Something, something "Time is always in flux"

I have a question, what exactly is the lux aeterna?

The quantum foam which underpins reality and the food for the Chronovores.

 

[ByAsura]

Like I said, his concern is genuine.

• ‘Even the Six-Fold-God will prove impotent in the face of my majesty,’ cackled the burning figure. The Quantum Archangel shouted to the heavens: ‘I challenge you! I laugh in the face of the ancient strictures! Confront me if you dare!’ The last thing the Doctor wanted was to be caught in the crossfire between the Quantum Archangel and the Guardians. And he didn’t think it would do the universe much good, either. Time to be a little more direct.

And keep in mind, this was The Doctor while he was empowered with the Lux Aeterna and could fight (albeit a losing fight) The Quantum Archangel.

 

[Tyranno223]

I definitely felt that the Doctor was just grasping at names he could drop, since in the same breath he mentioned the Eternals, which in the same book was considered less than Insects to the Six-Fold God

True, but the Six-Fold God was the main threat he emphasised, and was the only one that the Quantum Archangel responded to and challenged to intervene.

Edit: ByAsura said it better.

 

[ByAsura]

Also, the Eternals aren't the best contradiction when their leaders are far, far more powerful than the rest of them.

Even a tiny sliver of the Vortex rendered an entire room of Eternals mortal, yet a huge amount of the Vortex released by the TARDIS couldn't fully stop something created by Time's existence.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Also, the Eternals aren't the best contradiction when their leaders are far, far more powerful than the rest of them.

Even a tiny sliver of the Vortex rendered an entire room of Eternals mortal, yet a huge amount of the Vortex released by the TARDIS couldn't fully stop something created by Time's existence.

where do eternals come from though?

 

[ByAsura]

Chronovores and Eternals were made from the very fabric of time-space right after the universe was created.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, the Eternals aren't the best contradiction when their leaders are far, far more powerful than the rest of them.

Even a tiny sliver of the Vortex rendered an entire room of Eternals mortal, yet a huge amount of the Vortex released by the TARDIS couldn't fully stop something created by Time's existence.

Yeah, but Time is a Menti-Celesti as well as an Eternal so ehhh.

where do eternals come from though?

Eternity, a massive endless void

 

[ByAsura]

That's my point. The Menti-Celesti would be included in The Doctor's statement. They're higher Eternals that don't scale to normal Eternals.

Though, modern DWU certainly loves to jobber the **** out of them.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

question,

what’s the best way to kill chronovores.

what Weapons did the time lords use to kill them?

 

[ByAsura]

The Master actually used a human weapon to kill them; Klypstromic/Klypstremic warheads irradiate the time vortex, so Chronovores are radiation poisoned. Then he used Artron Cannons to obliterate their bodies, and energies from the Eye of Harmony to vaporize them.

Even 23rd century humans could kill baby Chronovores. The Vortex has its own subjective time, so the hunting crew of the Kairos figured out that temporal stasis traps can remove the Chronovores from that time. From there, the Chronovores are vulnerable to certain temporal weapons.

 

[Udlmaster]

Eye of Harmony to vaporize them.

TBF, The Eye of Harmony is kinda cheating, given what it empowers and what it did in the past too lmao

Very overkill

 

[Undylan]

Would The Doctor be considered the best "with prep time" character? Moreso then Batman or Doctor Doom?

 

[ByAsura]

That'd more go to The Eleven, The Valeyard, The Master, or The Rani.

The Doctor isn't a fan of weaponry.

 

[Undylan]

That'd more go to The Eleven, The Valeyard, The Master, or The Rani.

The Doctor isn't a fan of weaponry.

Ironic since the Doctor was a very feared warrior in the Time War.

The Valeyard IMO is still techinally the Doctor but without any morals which itself is very scary.

 

[Lewis]

I'm interested when the universe is discussed about set theory, can it actually be applied to upgrade cosmology?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Ironic since the Doctor was a very feared warrior in the Time War.

The Valeyard IMO is still techinally the Doctor but without any morals which itself is very scary.

Isn’t that why the daleks called him a bunch of names like

"Ka Faraq Gatri" ("Bringer of Darkness" or "Destroyer of Worlds"), and "The Oncoming Storm"

 

[ByAsura]

He had that name before the Time War.

IIRC, the first instance chronologically was in the story The Bringer of Darkness, which takes place after The Doctor humanised a group of Daleks and started a civil war on Skaro. This could suggest he got it because of that, but the story strongly implies that it's a familiar label.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

He had that name before the Time War.

IIRC, the first instance chronologically was in the story The Bringer of Darkness, which takes place after The Doctor humanised a group of Daleks and started a civil war on Skaro. This could suggest he got it because of that, but the story strongly implies that it's a familiar label.

Familiar as in they use it on other people too?

 

[ByAsura]

Familiar as in The Doctor seems relatively familiar with it.