Doctor Who Discussion Thread

[ByAsura]

I assume you're referring to The Doctor, then.

I haven't gotten to his physical stats yet, but he'd go from High Complex Multiverse level to Low Complex Multiverse level with the Lux Aeterna.

 

[Udlmaster]

I assume you're referring to The Doctor, then.

I haven't gotten to his physical stats yet, but he'd go from High Complex Multiverse level to Low Complex Multiverse level with the Lux Aeterna.

He should definitely be higher with the Lux Aeterna

Our current ratings for DW are pretty ass, given what I've found in the show and books, 11th Dimensionality is definitely not what the Universe is

 

[ByAsura]

You're assuming DW has any sort of consistency when it comes to that kind of stuff.

In truth, DW cosmology is super inconsistent, although 11-D is probably the most common throughout canon (including the novel where the Lux Aeterna appears).

I've literally seen them go from a 10-D universe, to an infinite-D universe, to an 11-D universe in the span of a dozen or so Eighth Doctor Adventures novels.

 

[Udlmaster]

You're assuming DW has any sort of consistency when it comes to that kind of stuff.

In truth, DW cosmology is super inconsistent, although 11-D is probably the most common throughout canon (including the novel where the Lux Aeterna appears).

I've literally seen them go from a 10-D universe, to an infinite-D universe, to an 11-D universe in the span of a dozen or so Eighth Doctor Adventures novels.

The 11-D stuff really only comes from 3 books and even then, 1 of those books contradicts itself.

Since that book has the 27th Dimensional being come to the universe just fine and also has a 30-D Library.

And even then, what's more consistent is the fact that the Time Lords made the Universe the way it is by Rationalizing it, which set into place all the laws of the Universe and making Science and Mathematics the ruling forces in the Universe rather than Magick and Belief.

And in a few books, they speak about Set theory and Higher order infinities.

In my blog, I need to re-write it tbh, because the dimensionality doesn't really matter anymore, at least, not as much as I thought it did when I first started.

 

[ByAsura]

Trust me when I say it's not 3 books.

Saraquazel didn't come through just fine. It was from the After-Universe (not even normal N-Space), got sucked in by a ritual, and then reduced to an 11th dimensional form due to the alien laws of physics.

That wasn't referring to the Library, just an index database. And it's debatable what dimensions mean in this context.

• `This system indexes the entire Labyrinth!' she gushed, her fingers moving from keyboard to mouse and back in a dazzling blur. Although that could be an after-effect of his earlier malaise, the Doctor ruefully admitted to himself. Ànd the index itself is a relational database with over thirty dimensions!'

The Time Lords didn't give the universe infinite dimensions through sheer power, they just anchored the Time Vortex to N-Space with the Eye of Harmony and established the web of time by creating historical node points with TARDISes. The 11 dimensions were revealed to have already existed in The Quantum Archangel.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

and established the web of time by creating historical node points with TARDISes

given a little more context to this, they made the Web of Time mappers who created the first fixed points through the observation effect, it is explained in the book of Peace

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

given a little more context to this, they made the Web of Time mappers who created the first fixed points through the observation effect, it is explained in the book of Peace

Do the time lords have technology that can grant some sort of omniscience?

 

[ByAsura]

No, but the Matrix is pretty damn close when time active factions aren't involved.

 

[Udlmaster]

Saraquazel didn't come through just fine. It was from the After-Universe (not even normal N-Space), got sucked in by a ritual, and then reduced to an 11th dimensional form due to the alien laws of physics.

I'm aware he came through with a ritual and that he's from the After-Universe, from what I remember of the book, he's thought to be a Time Lord who survived till the next Universe, in effect becoming a Great Old One.

That wasn't referring to the Library, just an index database. And it's debatable what dimensions mean in this context.

It's definitely not, they call it 30 Dimensional:

`Now, if this database is designed along the Darwen model –' He navigated through the thirty dimensional web of the database at breakneck speed, ignoring the Technomancer who was now standing behind him, her anger tangible. And there it was, the book that he needed. Only a couple of shelves away, according to its database record.

The Time Lords didn't give the universe infinite dimensions through sheer power, they just anchored the Time Vortex to N-Space with the Eye of Harmony and established the web of time by creating historical node points with TARDISes. The 11 dimensions were revealed to have already existed in The Quantum Archangel.

I'm well aware of how they did it. I'm saying Time Lord technology did it.

And they did it by expunging Irrationality from the Universe and using the Eye of Harmony and the Matrix to bind the universe into rationality.

Secondly, they didn't already exist, the Quantum Archangel Novel actually states:

‘When the universe was created, dimensions started to solidify out of the primal chaos. But five got there first – the three spatial dimensions and two of time.’

The Pre-Rational Universe was this Chaos, and we know Time didn't even exist in the Primordial Universe, as the Carnival Queen explains

Once upon a time, she said, this was your universe. Long before your time, before any time that you could measure. A place of endless miracles, non? No harsh sciences here, no mundane little laws of physics, no guiding principles. There was just possibility. An infinity of possibility. Now. Look.

Event 0 is considered the Creation of the Universe, even though there was the Primordial Universe before it.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Do the time lords have technology that can grant some sort of omniscience?

The Matrix is the most close that you can have omniscience in a stable way, there are other ways that give you omniscience but the Matrix is the best option because it does not have many flaws

 

[Udlmaster]

No, but the Matrix is pretty damn close when time active factions aren't involved.

Or if the Doctor isn't involved since that messes with things apparently because ???????????

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Or if the Doctor isn't involved since that messes with things apparently because ???????????

With everything that the doctor has done to the Matrix, it is a pity that it cannot correctly fulfill its function for which it was created

 

[ByAsura]

I'm aware he came through with a ritual and that he's from the After-Universe, from what I remember of the book, he's thought to be a Time Lord who survived till the next Universe, in effect becoming a Great Old One.

No. That's referring to the Great Old Ones like The Great Intelligence.

And by Time Lords, what they mean is the equivalent.

It's definitely not, they call it 30 Dimensional:

`Now, if this database is designed along the Darwen model –' He navigated through the thirty dimensional web of the database at breakneck speed, ignoring the Technomancer who was now standing behind him, her anger tangible. And there it was, the book that he needed. Only a couple of shelves away, according to its database record.

For some reason, the text is ****** up in my e-copy. I'll take the L here.

I'm well aware of how they did it. I'm saying Time Lord technology did it.

And they did it by expunging Irrationality from the Universe and using the Eye of Harmony and the Matrix to bind the universe into rationality.

And I'm saying they only established time-space on a 4/5-D level.

Secondly, they didn't already exist, the Quantum Archangel Novel actually states:

The context you're missing is that the Time Vortex itself was the 5th dimension here, the Chronovores were created by this, and the Six-Fold Realm is the 7 dimensions shunted off in this creation event.

In this novel, they weren't responsible for it.

The Pre-Rational Universe was this Chaos, and we know Time didn't even exist in the Primordial Universe, as the Carnival Queen explains

Event 0 is considered the Creation of the Universe, even though there was the Primordial Universe before it.

Event 0 also predated the Time Lords, hence why they didn't create it.

 

[ByAsura]

Anne squeezed it. 'I'd like that.' Facing up to your demons, wasn't that what you were meant to do? The Doctor took a deep breath and picked up one of the doilies that lay on the table, protecting the varnished surface from the bowl of complimentary nuts. 'Before this universe was created, there was another one. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like –' He chuckled. `Giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space. In this universe, they're my people, the Time Lords. In that universe, they were also Time Lords, but they were lords of a very strange version of time and space.' His gaze shifted to the window and the snowy wastes of Hyde Park, but Anne got the feeling his thoughts were much, much further away. Às their universe reached the point of collapse, a group of these "Time Lords" shunted themselves into a parallel dimension which collapsed seconds after ours. Moments later, they erupted into our universe, and soon discovered that they were in possession of undreamt of powers.' He swigged from his glass. 'And I'm afraid that the power went to their heads – or what passed for heads given their new bodies. They decided that since they now had god-like powers, they should behave like gods. And the one called YogSothoth, who had been the Time Lords' military strategist, decided to dedicate his new-found abilities into discovering whether his tactics and stratagems would have worked.' He held up the transformed doily: it now resembled a string of white Yeti.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I wonder is being able to use the glory the most powerful thing/achievement a person could get?

 

[ByAsura]

That's not Legacy of Gallifrey. But I know what you're talking about.

It claims that God split into the White and Black Guardian. So it's been retconned to ****.

I'll see if I can find it.

 

[ByAsura]

My mistake, it is Legacy of Gallifrey.

It's not an annual, though, so I thought you were talking about something else.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

what were the requirements again if you want to become a guardian of time? Since I heard it is possible to become one

 

[ByAsura]

IIRC, the only person who even had the potential to become a Guardian rather than sort of being born or made into one via physical laws was The Doctor. And even that wasn't technically canon.

 

[ByAsura]

I found it.

 

[Udlmaster]

No. That's referring to the Great Old Ones like The Great Intelligence.

No, I no, I mean, in effect, Saraquazeal became a Great Old One, as the Great Old Ones are from the previous Universe and gain immense power due to functioning on alien physics.

And I'm saying they only established time-space on a 4/5-D level.

Nah, in one of the Doctor Who Annuals, there's is massive and lengthy story about the Ordering of the Universe called "The Legacy of Gallifrey", and in that story, it basically explains that even the Guardians of Time were appointed by the Time Lords, specifically, Rassilon and used the Matrix to do so, giving them the Key to Time as well to maintain the Universal balance.

I prefer this explaination to ... UGH... Power to the People, which is just Self-insert Christianity into Doctor Who where, apparently, everything the Doctor has done is just because God is allowing him to do it and wants him to succeed.

Luckily, Power to the People is a fan-writing that was published as the winner of the Writing competition and can be disregarded.

The context you're missing is that the Time Vortex itself was the 5th dimension here, the Chronovores were created by this, and the Six-Fold Realm is the 7 dimensions shunted off in this creation event.

I know it's the 5th Dimension, I've actually wrote it down in my blog, found here:

Doctor Who: Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com

I don't think the Vortex is the 5th Spatial/Temporal dimension, especially when there's multiple higher dimensions in N-Space.

I think it's the 5th Plane, as this interpretation basically resolves all the conflictions in the story with there being any number of Spatial Dimensions in N-Space and maintains the superiority of the Time Vortex.


Also the Time Vortex, when it mixes with N-Space, Science and Math no longer apply, which I found interesting.

My mistake, it is Legacy of Gallifrey.

It's not an annual, though, so I thought you were talking about something else.

Mind me, it's in the 100th DW Magazine, not the Annual.

It claims that God split into the White and Black Guardian. So it's been retconned to ****.

Yeah, Power to the People, it's mega lame.

Event 0 also predated the Time Lords, hence why they didn't create it.

Event 0 is just where the Universe began, but that's often accredited to the Time Lord's rationalization of the Universe, especially when they refer to the Irrational Universe as the "Universe before"

 

[Udlmaster]

I found it.

"Rassilon created two forces, a force for light and good, and a force for dark and evil. These two entities existence on the astral plane, each needing the other to keep the universal harmony;"

It seems to say Rassilon created them.

 

[ByAsura]

There's more than 2 guardians, though, and they all represent equally fundamental aspects of the universe, and it's later explained that The Grace/the Gods of the Gods of the Time Lords made them. So I think we can disregard it.

 

[Udlmaster]

There's more than 2 guardians, though, and they all represent equally fundamental aspects of the universe, and it's later explained that The Grace made them. So I think we can disregard it.

From what I remember, the Grace didn't make the Guardians, they made the Key to Time and used the Guardians as their agents much like how they used the Doctor as their agent when it suited them.

As for the other Guardians, from what I remember, they're all inferior to the White and Black Guardians, and just exist as middle grounds between them.

Likewise, even if they had created the Guardians, the Grace I mean, I don't see why we'd disregard the Time Lord's involvement over the Graces.

 

[ByAsura]

No, I no, I mean, in effect, Saraquazeal became a Great Old One, as the Great Old Ones are from the previous Universe and gain immense power due to functioning on alien physics.

In effect. But he was still different from his 27th dimensional form when he got sucked into the 11th dimensional universe.

Nah, in one of the Doctor Who Annuals, there's is massive and lengthy story about the Ordering of the Universe called "The Legacy of Gallifrey", and in that story, it basically explains that even the Guardians of Time were appointed by the Time Lords, specifically, Rassilon and used the Matrix to do so, giving them the Key to Time as well to maintain the Universal balance.

Addressing this point, this came well, well after the creation of the universe. Rassilon was dead by this point.

It certainly wasn't the anchoring of the thread.

I think it's the 5th Plane, as this interpretation basically resolves all the conflictions in the story with there being any number of Spatial Dimensions in N-Space and maintains the superiority of the Time Vortex.

That doesn't mesh at all with the tons of stories that say travelling through the Vortex is travelling in 5 dimensions.

Event 0 is just where the Universe began, but that's often accredited to the Time Lord's rationalization of the Universe, especially when they refer to the Irrational Universe as the "Universe before"

I remember seeing something like that in Original Sin and a couple other stories, but it's retconned to holy hell by more recent stories, like the Racnoss and Great Vampires predating the Time Lords.

 

[ByAsura]

From what I remember, the Grace didn't make the Guardians, they made the Key to Time and used the Guardians as their agents much like how they used the Doctor as their agent when it suited them.

So, I guess they gave the Key to Time to the Time Lords, who gave it to some Great Old Ones.

As for the other Guardians, from what I remember, they're all inferior to the White and Black Guardians, and just exist as middle grounds between them.

I have literally never seen any story say this. In fact, I've seen stories call The Crystal Guardian/The Celestial Toymaker the most powerful.

The Quantum Archangel even says they're the universe in many respects.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

There's more than 2 guardians, though, and they all represent equally fundamental aspects of the universe, and it's later explained that The Grace/the Gods of the Gods of the Time Lords made them. So I think we can disregard it.

Yeah in divided loyalties, the ToyMaker explains it

 

[ByAsura]

Also, your cosmology page in many ways is extremely wrong.

I'll get to it eventually.

 

[ByAsura]

Yeah in divided loyalties, the ToyMaker explains it

Oof. Maybe don't use DL as a source.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Oof. Maybe don't use DL as a source.

Why?

 

[ByAsura]

It's made as non-sensical as possible on purpose

 

[ByAsura]

Also, I'm sorry, but your cosmology page lacks an enormous amount of context and understanding, especially when it comes to Cat's Cradle and other stories made by Marc Platt. I'll explain everything in the upcoming CRT.

And 11-D isn't just from Millennial Rites, Quantum Archangel and Autumn Mist. There's First Frontier (which straight up destroys the narrative you've founded), Lucifer Rising, Parasite and The Crystal Bucephalus. And that's just the novels off the top of my head.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

It's made as non-sensical as possible on purpose

I mean, it doesn't deny the facts, the guardians are entities created specifically to maintain the universe/multiverse and they use the Key of Time, the Whoniverse that says something like that too

 

[Udlmaster]

Addressing this point, this came well, well after the creation of the universe. Rassilon was dead by this point.

It certainly wasn't the anchoring of the thread.

We're never given any Chronology towards Rassilon's PoV for this, especially since he was supposedly watching the Doctor while the Doctor travels through Time and Space with his stolen TARDIS.

That doesn't mesh at all with the tons of stories that say travelling through the Vortex is travelling in 5 dimensions.

It just makes statements about "travelling in five dimensions" mean less, while it resolves a whole host of other issues, notably, that the Time-Space vortex just breaks mathematics and science, or that it has infinite levels with no top or bottom and so on.

I remember seeing something like that in Original Sin and a couple other stories, but it's retconned to holy hell by more recent stories, like the Racnoss and Great Vampires predating the Time Lords.

The Great Vampires come from another Universe, so it's fine. The Time Lords only do their work in 1 Universe/Time Vortex.

It should also be noted too, that the Time Lords do just recreate the Universe on occasion too, like how the Doctor used the power of the TARDIS and the abilities of the Pandorica to just casually recreate the Universe, including the higher planes, since the Doctor was stuck on the otherside of the Time after creating the Universe from the outside.

 

[Udlmaster]

And 11-D isn't just from Millennial Rites, Quantum Archangel and Autumn Mist. There's First Frontier (which straight up destroys the narrative you've founded), Lucifer Rising, Parasite and The Crystal Bucephalus. And that's just the novels off the top of my head.

I actually address the 11-D argumentation by literally using an example from Autumn Mists, which solves any issues like First Frontier, which supposedly destroys my narrative, even though it really doesn't.

And dying on the hill of 11th Dimensional universe actually just collapses under all the other higher stuff.

Also, that screenshot is explaining Dimensional Transcendence, which no longer works with New Who anyway.

Parasite causes issues with the 11-D argument, because the Klein Bottle mentioned in Parasite is just said to have more then the 11-dimensions which supposedly make up the Universe.

Lucifer Rising has Legion say that the Space-Time continuum has 11 dimensions;

‘Very well,’ Legion continued. ‘I am not human, as you are.’ It paused, obviously expecting some kind of shocked reaction. Ace nodded, saying nothing. ‘Whereas the lives of humans, and other linear races in the cosmos, are constrained to four dimensions, we are privileged to move through seven.’ ‘There aren’t seven dimensions,’ Ace exclaimed, and then added, ‘are there?’ ‘The space-time continuum has eleven dimensions,’ Legion replied, ‘although four of them are inaccessible.’ ‘So, what’s it like then, living in seven dimensions?’ She took another bite of fruit. Legion did not reply. ‘Legion?’ ‘Indescribable.’

Also, I'm realising all these come from the same book line, Doctor Who: New Adventures except for Crystal Bucephalus, which is Missing Adventures:

As for Crystal Bucephalus, it mentions things beyond the 11 Dimensions when things manifest into the Physical world, let alone the higher planes:

"With the destruction of the statue, the spillage found itself venting into the real universe, a situation that defied all the laws of physics. Time spillage wasn't supposed to exist in normal eleven-dimensional space: it was completely incompatible. With a final shrug of resignation at those laws, the spillage transformed itself into an explosion of radiation that rivalled the creation of the galaxy: a torrent of radiation which was instantly shoved into the Time Vortex by the Bucephalus, too fast for it to have a chance to interact with its surroundings. The time bubble that contained the explosion exited the Vortex about five thousand years"

 

[ByAsura]

It's said that he was inside the Matrix with the other Time Lords at the time. We know from other stories that he couldn't actually leave directly until much later, and that was only in another universe. And he didn't use outside agents. So we know for a fact that this post-dates the early universe.

It doesn't just make 5-D claims, it literally says they have that many directions, they're travelling, moving, fighting, avoiding enemies, etc.

You're talking about the Axis from Spiral Scratch, yes? It says there's an infinite number of levels that are the same size, and they get ruined by a battle that doesn't encompass all the levels. So, no, they're not spatio-temporal dimensions, they're just levels. You should really read the novel.

What does the Great Vampires being from an alternate universe do? They came into N-Space billions of years ago, and the pre-Time Lords fought them from their relative perspective. I'm referring to when the Time Lords fought them.

Where is that stated? And even if that the case, that means the Time Lords of this current universe weren't as old as the universe. So your own point is nullified.

Genuinely, there's so many stories that say they're not as old as the current universe, or even the oldest species, that I seriously don't get how you can even make this argument.

I actually address the 11-D argumentation by literally using an example from Autumn Mists, which solves any issues like First Frontier, which supposedly destroys my narrative, even though it really doesn't.

I looked into it. That doesn't really address anything.

And dying on the hill of 11th Dimensional universe actually just collapses under all the other higher stuff.

You mean like pretending that explicitly alternate dimensions sideways to the universe (a term used for the alternate dimension in Inferno) are higher dimensions?

Alternate dimensions can have different physics in many stories to the point where it can often **** up TARDISes.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm putting this discussion on pause for now.

I have an amazing idea. I'll speak to you about it personally.

And I'm sorry if I came off as a rude.

 

[Abscoolguy]

I assume you're referring to The Doctor, then.

I haven't gotten to his physical stats yet, but he'd go from High Complex Multiverse level to Low Complex Multiverse level with the Lux Aeterna.

What about with The Glory? Or has the definitions of the omniverse changed?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

IIRC, the only person who even had the potential to become a Guardian rather than sort of being born or made into one via physical laws was The Doctor. And even that wasn't technically canon.

why isn't it technically canon?

 

[ByAsura]

What about with The Glory? Or has the definitions of the omniverse changed?

The Glory just controls infinite multiverses, where the vortex is a tributary.