DMC downgrades

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Yes, the tittle is a bait... somewhat.

This thread is for the majority of the characters rated at 7-A scaling to Sid because reasons. We had a thread about this and I voiced my disagreement with this but the thread got closed (I probably even forgot about it) but now I can do this.

• Lucia:

She scales to Arius-Argosax and the only calc listed in her profile is in her durability section a linking 8-C+ feat . Everything looks alright until you go to Arius profile.

• Arius-Argosax:

So, this has a 7-A key because he draw power from Argosax and there is the problem, because he never showed that kind of feats and the power source he got power is 3-A, it doesn't make sense. I think he was meant to be scaled to Sid but that is wrong as they never were compared by any character or hinted or even stated to be comparable in the DMC Historia videos capcom made.

On top of that he also scales to end game Lucia which as you saw above scales to Arius, so we have a circular scaling.

• Sanctus:

This guy is 7-A because he "possesed a portion of Sparda's power" which then again makes no sense, he had a 3-A power source but that doesn't mean he is 7-A, much less 3-A, he doesn't scale to another character with 7-A power and like Arius-Argosax he was never compared to Sid to grant him this tier.

As for The Savior, I don't really know where he falls, he has the Sparda and Nero (Sparda's blood) as his core so I guess he could be scaled to Sid, I dunno with this one.

• Nero :

We have the same problem here, he scales to Sanctus but as said above he should not scale to Sid.

What I proppose

• Lucia and Arius-Argosax should scale at the very least to Arius calc with a possibly higher.

• Sanctus should be "At least 7-B" since he got a boost from the Sparda but it is unquantifiable how much.

• Nero should be "At least 7-B" since he defeated Sanctus who still had the sword with him at the moment of his death.

• The Savior, I personally think he is good just like he is right now, he had the Sparda and the blood of Nero (Sparda) as his core along with the power of Sanctus but if the others think he should be downgraded too he could be "At least 7-B" too since he is superior to Nero by having him as part of his core along the Sparda.

Sorry if the CRT looks bad or something along the lines, it is my first time doing this.

 

[Dienomite22]

I'm agree with everything for now but I do think theres an argument that could be made for Sanctus' tier being the same as the Savior's. Don't worry the CRT looks perfectly fine

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Well, unsure about Lucia, Arius, Sanctus and Nero buuuuuuuuuuuut The Savior should stay with this Tier, but only when he got Nero in his core (Sparda's Blood)

Funny, I'm also doing a downgrade CRT for DMC

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Well, I do agree with the Savior just staying the same, if not getting an at least since he got Nero (a decent 7-B), Sparda's Sword (3-A power source) and Sanctus who is comparable to Nero.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

While I agree with Lucia not being 7-A, I believe Sanctus & Nero should keep their ratings. Even assuming that Devil Sword Sparda has only a third of Sparda's power, it should still be comparable to the amount of power Sid obtained, since Abigail is inferior to Sparda.

At worst, their ratings should be changed to "At least 7-B, likely 7-A, possibly far higher".

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

One third of Sparda's power would be along the lines of 3-B/A, which Dante actually used against Mundus.

How does both having a 3-A as a power source equals having the same tier?

Yes, Abigail is weaker than sparda but drawing some power from the sword is not the same as drawing power from Abigail. For all we know the power Sid got from Abigail could be greater (by feats it is) than the power they got from the Sparda.

I don't agree with them having a likely/possibly 7-A key, only the Saviour should stay the same.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

>One third of Sparda's power would be along the lines of 3-B/A, which Dante actually used against Mundus.

Okay. Doesn't change anything.

>How does both having a 3-A as a power source equals having the same tier?

Dunno, although I never said that.

>Yes, Abigail is weaker than sparda but drawing some power from the sword is not the same as drawing power from Abigail.

It kinda is, when both didn't get the full power of their respective demons. And again, Sparda's power is greater than Abigail's to a sizable extent.

>I don't agree with them having a likely/possibly 7-A key, only the Saviour should stay the same.

Reasons?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Where does the 7-B come from?

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Where does the 7-B come from?

From Echidna, whose feat is borderline 7-B.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

┬╗ It is not the same thing, none of them got the full power and the power boost of the Sparda is not quantifiable, and again they never were compared in any form of media to warrant that tier. Sparda being stronger doesn't mean nothing if the power they can use is lower than the power others can use from Abigail.

You are only saying that they should be comparable because both have a 3-A power source.

I kinda made a post explaining why I don't agree with those ratings. Even there I was dubious of where the Saviour falls.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Oh I see. But shouldn't she be outright 7-B because of this or is that wrong?

"The one determined here was 4kj/kg, so the storm's power is 4.033302312384E16 Joules (9.63982388237265 Megatons, City level)."

And I agree with the OP, and the Saviour should be downgraded as well if everyone else is.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Abigail is weaker, since he's said to rival Mundus, which means he's comparable to him. And that in turn means Abigail is below Sparda.

>if the power they can use is lower than the power others can use from Abigail.

Not sure what you meant by this.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Oh I see. But shouldn't she be outright 7-B because of this or is that wrong?
"The one determined here was 4kj/kg, so the storm's power is 4.033302312384E16 Joules (9.63982388237265 Megatons, City level)."

2.5kj/kg value was accepted, not 4kj/kg. That's for the reboot.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I meant that the power they got for the Sparda is not comparable to the power the demons are capable of drawing from Abigail.

That the power boost sparda grants is lower/weaker than the power Sid got from Abigail.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

I meant that the power they got for the Sparda is not comparable to the power the demons are capable of drawing from Abigail.
That the power boost sparda grants is lower/weaker than the power Sid got from Abigail.

Why not? It's pretty evident that Sanctus had a decent portion of Sparda's power, seeing how he wielded its awakened form.

And that's true, why?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

eh it doe make sense fra tbh

 

[Dark649]

I agree with Rebuble.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Trish too uses the Awakened form yet she doesn't scale to Anime Dante/Sid.

Again, that portion of it's power is not quantifiable and not enough to warrant a tier jump.

That was an example, but seeing as Sanctua barely got a boost I am inclined to agree it is not as big as the boost Sid got from Abigail's powers.

 

[DMUA]

I dunno if the Savior would be so much weaker then some random guy drawing from a weaker demon, but, yeah, them drawing from a 3-A doesn't necessarily make them 7-A, even if the 3-A is stronger then another 3-A that made a guy 7-A.

 

[Kepekley23]

This issue only exists because we consider Abigail a Mundus-level demon at all to begin with. Just because of a vague statement by Lady (a human character with no particular knowledge on the Demon World) that goes pretty much like this; "the legends say he once fought against the Demon Emperor himself".

 

[Kepekley23]

Doesn't even say that he rivaled Mundus, just that they once fought. Not only that, there is no reason to assume this means Mundus. As stated on the DMC4 artbook, Berial ruled the Underworld after Mundus' sealing for at least a millenium before Argosax's appearance, yet he is nowhere near 3-A. And assuming the quote is talking about Berial is much more reasonable considering Mundus was sealed more than two thousand years prior to the events of the series, while Abigail himself was sealed in modern times.

And Prime Abigail being equal to Mundus is also contradicted by feats. Abigail was sealed by a single featless human sorcerer named Allan Lowell, while Argosax (an actual confirmed Mundus-level demon in the franchise) took Sparda and an entire clan of half-human, half-demon sorcerers to seal, and Mundus himself took the power of the Sparda Sword to be sealed.

 

[Dark649]

The wiki says: Abigail was considered a demon with power that rivals a demon king, through i'm not sure where that came from since the only thing there is, is Lady statement.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

@Kepekley

I believe what you say makes sense. But would that mean Nero should be stronger than Sid? 'Cause that's what I'm thinking now.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Now that you mention it, Abigail being 3-A is rather dubious. I believe we should make him "Unknown" and change Sidgail's rating to flat-out 7-A, while keeping Nero, Lucia & Sanctus as they are, seeing that they may be far superior to Sid due to what Kep noted in his replies.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Sid with Abigail's powers had a casual 7-A feat, this by itself already shows that it wasn't about Berial that they were talking about tho

But Kep makes sense, I guess we can just erase the second 3-A key and rename the profile to Sid (Devil May Cry), with his 7-A feat

 

[Dark649]

Pre-Abigail Sid himself is likely 10-C with no powers whatsover, so his regular form is not really important to consider.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Seeing that scalling this to Mundus or Berial is kinda dubious, I think we should just scale them to their actual feats, with Lucia scalling from Arius-Argosax own feats and Nero scalling from Echidna

Sid and Anime Dante still on 7-A

 

[Dark649]

So:

Prime Abigail: Unknown

Sid Abigail and Anime Dante: 7-A [Sid Abigail feat]

Baul and Modeus: 7-B [Should be both stronger than Mundus generals since both were trained by Sparda and Modeus past skills with his sword were stated to have trembled the demon world. Both were stomped by 7-A Dante]

DMC4 Nero, The Saviour, Sanctus Diabolica: 7-B [Trish was unimpressed and implied she could take on The Saviour]

Arius Argosax and Lucia: 8-B [Arius is stronger than his previous form]

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Tbh I believe Nero & others being 7-A is more likely now.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Dark FRA.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Kepe never said anything about them scaling to Sid and again, they never where stated, implied or hinted to be at the same level as Sid with Abigail's powers.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Dark FRA

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Bump

 

[DarkGrath]

I pretty much agree with everything Dark649 said, though might I suggest that Prime Abigail's tier is changed to "At least 7-A, Possibly 3-A"? The context on Lady's quote does seem to suggest she was talking about Mundus, but a mildly vague quote from a mostly unknowledgable character is probably worth nothing more than a "Possible" justification. As for "At least 7-A", that's just based on the fact that it is explicitly stated that Sid was not as powerful as Prime Abigail, so Prime Abigail should be at least the same tier as him.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Lady was reading and searching info about Abigail and Lowell in the same episode, in old books

I believe she knew what she was talking about tho

 

[DarkGrath]

That is a good point. It is also implied that Abigail's power had been sealed for a long time (if I remember correctly) and Dante had only killed Mundus a few years back. Mundus has been the demon king for thousands of years, so he's the most likely candidate.

I'm still not defending anything more than a "Possibly 3-A" or maybe a "Likely 3-A" rating, since we are making a couple of assumptions here, even if they are logical.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I forgot a certain scene in the episode where Trish finds Lady in the library and both were looking for info about Abigail, and Lady had arrived before and was reading a book with the story

What she says forward in the episode certainly came out of this book, I believe that her words, at least on this subject, possess some credibility

"Likely 3-A" should be fine for Prime Abigail

 

[Schnee_One]

Does Abigail have low High regen?

I only recall Sid getting shot and when he was Abigail he got one shotted by Dante

 

[Lightning_XXI]

He regenerated from his blood on ep 11

But I don't know where his Mind Resistance comes from

 

[DarkGrath]

Dante has up to mid level regen negation, right?