@SuperSonicTL nice try, sonic. Anyhow;
First and foremost, wiki didn't exactly gave birth to Pluto but Peak of Combat did that you decided to skim around through for reasons that I, or better, anybody with a common sense will never understand but lemme amuse this idea of yours too. Yes, this is true that this wiki already provided the concept of Pluto before the mobile game ever did & PoC just proved it that we were correct however you are implying that his "existence" solely comes from a translation that doesn't mention him whatsoever ehh? Hmmm... you probably are correct if these hints didn't exist which led us to making his profile before the game solidified it however, just for you, I made it much more in-depth then ever:
The wiki most certainly did so first, especially considering that PoC Pluto is literally an entirely different character from the one you have in the wiki, both in terms of lore and characterization; since Pluto's in PoC is the
Demon Lord that Matilda fought and
sealed his power inside six different artifacts, which is why he
refers to them as his own. on top of that, he's like, the only Demon Lord mentioned in PoC so far so it's doubtful it's referring to someone's else. Pretty much nothing alike.
And yes, his existence in the
main series is entirely based on a single offhand translation. The fact that you can’t provide a single other statement from the
main series mentioning him or proving his existence, and instead rely on baseless assumptions, says it all.
Now frankly speaking this is a controversial topic on its own that stems from the fact that if we should take either Japanese localization or English localization seriously here but I wanna ask why are we not taking both into account at once? Because the game is developed by a Japanese company? The OP said that the Japanese translation doesn't mention his name but his title that seemingly talks about Mundus who is the ruler of underworld rather then a character
who literally stems from English localization of the game. Now this raises alot of questions, why? First we need to understand that DMC isn't a series that is known for Japanese content, heck nobody knows Capcom as a Japanese company. Like brother they even have crossovers with American titles like Marvel and they take the international language just as seriously, heck, I'd say even more then their official language at occasions unlike any other Japanese titles for multitude of reasons like, for example, the fact that
Itsuno actively is involved in the English translation and that the original mocap has the English translation in mind. Not to mention,
the American/Western actors are the benchmark in Itsuno's eyes for how the characters are meant to be portrayed as the Japanese actors couldn't portray an authentic version of the character in Itsuno's eyes.
This is, quite literally, the dumbest, most useless, and most nothingburger argument I’ve ever seen. You don’t get to cherry-pick translations based on your whims just cuz they don’t fit your headcanon. That’s pure dishonesty, especially when the wiki itself uses the raw text to justify many things on the profiles.
Are you even listening to yourself? Japanese localization? For a game that’s originally Japanese? Everyone knows Capcom is a Japanese company. Saying nobody knows that is just ugh. Like, are you even taking this seriously? But yeah, claiming the English localization should take precedence over the Japanese is pure nonsense when every single piece of side material—the guidebook, novels, art books, anime, and so on—is originally in Japanese. This argument might apply to the voice acting since there’s no Japanese VA, but everything else is in Japanese. On top of that, saying we should consider both is even worse because it just lets you cherry-pick what you like and ignore what you don’t—like what’s happening in this argument right now.
Being involved in the localization doesn’t mean anything or make it superior to the native language—it just is what it is. Nothing more, nothing less. Plus, you do realize these 'official sites' show different languages based on your location, right? The DMC5 site even straight up asks you to pick a language. Such baffling argument. Lastly, I’m not sure why a 'strategy book' matters much at all—it’s just, well, a strategy book. It doesn’t provide any new information, just repeats what’s
already in the games. Being official doesn’t change that.
Tldr: all in all; you're basically arguing from incredulity.
Alright, let us talk about other factors here that also solidifies this idea alongside Pluto. In official DMC PoC channel, the content creator literally word-on-word states and lemme quote
"Pluto is the one that Mundus has slayed and that's why he became the King of Hell". Believe it or not, DMC's lore is actually quite simple regarding him.
That stream no longer exists, and you need to provide the authority of this random person from this random stream over the entire franchise lore. Otherwise, irrelevant.
Aside from
this scan that literally on point supported by
this specific WoG from Kamiya who worked on DMC1 mind you, there is Brady's guidebook (an official English guide) too that states and I quote: "
Mundus slayed the former God of Evil" & you can clearly see the resemblance from the previous statement and this one.
This is already debunked; I'm not going to repeat myself so I'll just quote it.
His 'existence' comes from an old translation found in a particular library section that says, '
Pluto shall come on the promised date and separate heaven and earth. The one with black wings of treachery shall come and stand in Pluto's way.' But, alas, the original Japanese text doesn't mention Pluto at all. It merely says
冥王 (king of the Underworld), not 冥王星 (Pluto) which makes it clear that it's referring to Mundus and also recontextualizes the rest of the statement to clarify it's talking about Sparda
Kamiya's Twitter
post also doesn't disprove Mundus being the one in the prophecy; it's all a huge ass communication issue. The "Pluto" scan doesn't say 冥王星 (What's used in the tweet); it says 冥王 (what's used in the game), which is an entirely different thing. To make an analogy, let's say you made a game and someone mistranslated a title as a name, and you were asked if X is that name. Obviously, you'd say no. You can even tell he's confused from his "...." In that post lol.
So yeah.
But it isn't over here as the next line is even more hilarious as it later states and, again, I quote:
"Then the overlord planned to break through the thin veil separating the Underworld from the human world, uniting the land of eternal darkness with the world of light" which literally depicts
this scan from DMC3 with same exact comparison and context (Eternal Darkness, World of Light) soo the most likely case would be
Pluto existing within the main story as well as splitting the world as the implementation of a
thin veil can only be done by him then anyone else. However this is argued against as Light (Human World) removing itself from Darkness (Demon World) which I'm going to address later in detail as to why it makes absolutely
ZERO sense whatsoever.
Umm, no. The veil refers to when the original world became into two—the Demon World and the Human World. That’s the veil, the separation of the worlds. That’s why he wants to unite them, to return the world to its origin. Saying 'Pluto' did that has no evidence and is just pure headcanon.
Aside from all these evidences that should end this debate, I took my time to revise the entire lore again from scratch that needed me to look into the manga francisco that the OP used to prove it was actually Mundus who wanted to
SEPARATE the world but
forgot the fact that Mundus literally wanted the opposite of it... Anyway, the manga statements was something I was led into believing talking about Pluto because others gaslighted me into it But when I looked at it again, it admittedly sounded suspicious to me as well. Soo I tried to research around over it and turns out things were even more ridiculous then I actually thought.
Already addressed;
It's not referring to literal separation, based on the fact that the same/similar kanji has already been used in the series, and it wasn’t describing things being actually separated; the manga scan of DMC 3 uses 裂ける, the potential form of 裂く, which means to tear,and guess what;
As you can see, the context of the statement is clear: Heaven was constantly overturning the Earth (the Human Realm), splitting it apart repeatedly, leaving its people hopeless and dying. At some point, however, a black-horned demon appeared and struck the Earth with a massive spike, ensuring it would never be split apart again—essentially preventing it from being overturned or attacked in such a way ever again. (Note: I originally translated 裂ける here as "split" instead of "tear" to show how it doesn't work grammatically or fit the sentence and context.)
Now, you might be wondering where I'm going with all this. It's the fact that 引き裂く is what's used in the prophecy scan, and guess what? It's another form of 裂く, which means to tear up into pieces and the like.
TL;DR: The statement is just talking about him messing things up, nothing more, nothing less.
- "The stake" is referring to Temen Ni Guru itself.
- Preventing the Earth from "split" or "torn" is how it can be used as bridge for Demon Kind to invade the Human World as the world is no longer within Underworld at that point and as such, creating chaos which can taken as synonym for splitting/tearing apart.
- "Escape again" meaning how the reactivation of the tower resurfaces Temen Ni Guru for Demons to go in and out from Human World to Demon World and vice versa.
- Chaining the "undying" ones referring to those Demons that were trapped inside the Tower by Sparda for its defense and so.
- Making it an "eternal seal" soo normally people couldn't access it like how they used to before whatsoever.
Ah, so we agree on this point. Good.
Soo I've proven soo far that Pluto split the world & that manga statements does not actually talks about Pluto but Sparda regarding Temen-Ni-Guru so now what? Well... Things came abit interesting here to say the least. Ya'll remember
this scan that talks about Pluto right? What if I told you that it Isn't actually talking about neither Sparda or Mundus nor Sparda or Mundus
but Sparda and Pluto? Yeah... Coz look at this way, we see the statement mentioning
Black wings of Treachery and
Mundus has no black wings in his statue form, heck, his actual form is just a
knock-off version of Argosax. Soo aside from him, the only wings of treachery that fits the role is, you guessed it, only Sparda.
You're overcomplicating it. All that's needed is to show that Pluto, which I’ve proven to be a title, is Mundus, and that he’s going to be betrayed by someone with black wings. Assuming it refers to two people simultaneously is a strange and far-fetched interpretation.
The proof is Peak Of Combat story itself that solidifies Pluto as a character and not just that, but also the fact that
it was implied that it was Sparda who at the time fought Pluto and sealed him away (?). Now the sealing part I'm not really sure about as we didn't seen it talking about Pluto specifically but Medeas who is an assistant of Pluto but that's besides the point, the lore actually supports the notion that Sparda was there fighting Pluto which is the only thing that matters as a supporting evidence while either Mundus probably was there eating the fruit of Qliphoth and got enough amp to kill him or he did that while fighting alongside Sparda who wasn't awoken to justice yet. In any case, PoC interprets this event as either he was sealed by Sparda or was put out of commission for the time being (I take former as it makes more sense then latter imo).
I mean, no. The 'breaking the seal' there refers to Medusa being set free since she was the one
sealed by Sparda (2:23:15). Pluto, on the other hand, was sealed by Miranda (which I mentioned at the very beginning of my post).
The timeline chart doesn't make any sense.
Why would he separate them if he wants to turn it into another Demon World? That would just make the job harder for himself. If you want a real, non-convoluted chart, it’d look something like this:
- The original world existed.
- A ray of light came and separated it into two: the world of light and the world of darkness.
- Mundus wanted to undo that separation and return the world to its original shape.
- A sense of justice awoke within Sparda, and he decided to betray his kin.
- Sparda sealed the realms from each other.
- The rest we know about.
Rebuttal: Why are we assuming that Human World randomly one day decided to yeet itself out of Demon World that always tried to
eat away Human World whenever it got the opportunity? But anyway, it's a very easy rebuttal actually as there was someone that put a "
thin veil" between worlds and the only one capable of such a feat was Pluto at that point in time which is directly supported by
this same English localized scan on point stating Pluto separated heaven and earth supported by
Kamiya who said that Pluto isn't an alias of Mundus and indirectly implied his existence &
officially proven through PoC by Pluto outright existing within the verse to be an actual thing outside of any mere
"mistranslation" that the OP of previous thread tried to ignore out of scrutiny which also refers to Pluto as a title and the scan that tries to
connect Pluto's lore and separation of world event at the same time which is previously referenced in
DMC3 manga.
All of this has already been addressed here and in the previous thread; you're just repeating yourself, and I’m not going to go over it again.
Counter argument: Okay what about the "
Chaos Boundary Stone"?
Rebuttal: "
Chaos Boundary Stone" is referring to the destabilization that occurred due to light's intervention as split in half doesn't always mean in literal sense but also figurative sense too and given the provided evidence, you just have to accept the latter like come on, the name literally gives it away, "chaos" lol. Also a side note, it is mistranslated a bit as the sentence says it was found everywhere in contrast to stones nowhere to be found. Correct that part e.t.c
That was never part of my argument nor care about it. Furthermore, this item no longer exists in PoC 2.0 so it's whatever.
TL;DR;
- The wiki Pluto is entirely different from PoC pluto's
- The light is what caused the separation, I.e. the world was one, then light came and it became two, ergo now theres a veil between em.
- The Manga statements was referring to Sparda, which, both of us agrees to.
- Mundus statement wasn't talking about literal separation.
- The localization argument is dishonest.
- Sparda sealed Medusa, not Pluto.
- Kamiya's tweet is just communication issue.
- A bunch of the arguments are rehash of the same argument.
