Divine Deep Forest Emergence and Variable-Mass System KE

[Arc7Kuroi]

Hello,

I recently re-read through Naruto… So, I figured I’d make a Calc Group Discussion thread for this calc rather than pursue the chaos of trying to entertain discourse in a blog. My calc is predicated on finding the kinetic energy of a system with an increasing mass. I went about approaching this problem via Work = integrand of Force dot Distance, where I used Force = Time derivative of Momentum, treating the entirety of Momentum as having Time dependence. I know this feat in particular has a lot of “hot-blooded” history behind it, but I ask everyone maintain a level head. Without further adieu,

Shin: Jukai Koutan

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This'll be interesting

 

[Deceived3596]

 

[KLOL506]

Might as well do the usual.

@DontTalkDT I'm so sorry for this

 

[DontTalkDT]

Problem is that the assumption that the mass is created at Madara isn't secured by anything. The mass can be (and most likely is) created where the roots actually grow, making the actual movement of mass much lower than the expansion rate of the roots.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Problem is that the assumption that the mass is created at Madara isn't secured by anything. The mass can be (and most likely is) created where the roots actually grow, making the actual movement of mass much lower than the expansion rate of the roots.

Can you elaborate on this point? It’s not like the base of the root is moving and then the root is also growing, all the root’s movement is from it growing. The speed at which is moves is the same speed at which is grows.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Can you elaborate on this point? It’s not like the base of the root is moving and then the root is also growing, all the root’s movement is from it growing. The speed at which is moves is the same speed at which is grows.

Yeah, all the roots movement is from the growing. That's the problem.

Like, say you had a real plant and that plant grew a leaf. Then nutrients and water are consumed by the roots, transported through the plant and delivered to where the leaf grows. There, the cells use that stuff to duplicate and those duplicate cells then form the leaf. So mass travels from the roots to the branch with the leaf. That would theoretically allow for a KE calc using the mass of the leaf as mass, the distance between root and branch as distance, and the period necessary for the mass to travel from root to branch as time.

However, for magically growing plants it is different (or, at least, it can be different). It's not like they actually absorb the nutrients and water from their roots. They instead grow on magical energy. Chakra, in this case. So instead of water & nutrients being transported from root to branch, you have Chakra transported from Madara (and whoever else is involved in powering this) to the branch where the leaf would grow. Energy has no mass, so you can't do a KE calc for the energy being transported.
Once at the branch, the chakra is then used to make the cells multiply and create the leaf. In other words: The matter is created where the leaf grows. So the distance of matter transportation wouldn't be a quarter of the planet, as your calc assumes. The distance the matter travels would be from the branch where the leaf grows on, to the actual leaf, which is much shorter.
Hence the KE doesn't work like the calc assumes it does.

 

[Shadyboi0]

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

However, for magically growing plants it is different (or, at least, it can be different). It's not like they actually absorb the nutrients and water from their roots. They instead grow on magical energy. Chakra, in this case. So instead of water & nutrients being transported from root to branch, you have Chakra transported from Madara (and whoever else is involved in powering this) to the branch where the leaf would grow. Energy has no mass, so you can't do a KE calc for the energy being transported.
Once at the branch, the chakra is then used to make the cells multiply and create the leaf. In other words: The matter is created where the leaf grows. So the distance wouldn't be a quarter of the planet, as your calc assumes. The distance the matter travels would be from the branch where the leaf grows on, to the actual leaf, which is much shorter.
Hence the KE doesn't work like the calc assumes it does.

So what you’re saying is if the mass moving is simply mass being “appended” to the end, akin to stacking blocks or sumn, then only a small chunk is ever moving at any given time, and thus it wouldn’t work? You would need it to grow traditionally, more akin to a moving ball accreting mass?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Like, say you had a real plant and that plant grew a leaf. Then nutrients and water are consumed by the roots, transported through the plant and delivered to where the leaf grows. There, the cells use that stuff to duplicate and those duplicate cells than form the leaf. So mass travels from the roots to the branch with the leaf. That would theoretically allow for a KE calc using the mass of the leave as mass, the distance between root and branch as distance, and the period necessary for the mass to travel from root to branch as time.

So, I was looking at the anime to see how they portray the jutsu, and DFE in general. From what I found, it's far more in line with this example here. We see with DFE that the entire root moves (first 30s of the video), and as far as the visuals portray it isn't a case of appending mass to the tip of the root, but rather simply growing the root as per what you'd traditionally think. If Madara were just adding mass on to the end of the root, the portions behind it would be still once the mass grew past that portion, but rather we see the entire root moving the entire time.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Yus.....

 

[Damage3245]

Another problem is assuming that this is 1.11118e8 individual roots. A root/branch divides as it grows and spreads, and just because there may be 1.11118e8 root tips that emerge from the ground at the end of this network of roots, that doesn't mean that each one of those is an individual root with a separate volume that extends throughout the entire planet.

 

[Reio35]

DT and damage make sense

 

[Reio35]

We also know the god tree takes chakra from the planet. Which also could be what it used to spread itself

 

[Cyberblader90]

it doesnt take chakra until after its grown

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

We also know the god tree takes chakra from the planet. Which also could be what it used to spread itself

That's only after the Shinju is completely grown, and the Infinite Tsukuyomi is in full effect. This is different.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Another problem is assuming that this is 1.11118e8 individual roots. A root/branch divides as it grows and spreads, and just because there may be 1.11118e8 root tips that emerge from the ground at the end of this network of roots, that doesn't mean that each one of those is an individual root with a separate volume that extends throughout the entire planet.

Well if the roots split, the chunk from which they split from would be much larger than the split roots. Like if you cut something in half the two pieces have the same volume as the original piece. So why does the potential of root splitting inherently mean a different volume?

 

[Reio35]

That's only after the Shinju is completely grown, and the Infinite Tsukuyomi is in full effect. This is different.

it doesnt take chakra until after its grown

No the god tree starts taking chakra and spreading across the planet as soon as it's planted. So again the god tree was already expanding itself by taking chakra from the planet. So we can't say it was only madara's chakra being used. The god tree was already expanding as soon as obito planted it. Which was minutes possibly even hours before madara activated deep forest.


Another issue is the assumed time frame. Team 7 had and entire conversion that lasted multiple panels. When the process was over sasuke says"finally" which indicates a decent amount of time had past already. So 5-15 seconds is too short to assume.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Another issue is the assumed time frame. Team 7 had and entire conversion that lasted multiple panels. When the process was over sasuke says"finally" which indicates a decent amount of time had past already. So 5-15 seconds is too short to assume.

We don't use words per minute or conversation in general to denote anything regarding time frames any longer.

No the god tree starts taking chakra and spreading across the planet as soon as it's planted.

No where is this stated within the scans you provided.

 

[Damage3245]

We don't use words per minute or conversation in general to denote anything regarding time frames any longer.

We can't use words per minute to figure out a specific timeframe, but if characters have a long conversation in a moment where we don't know that time is supposed to be compressed, then it is valid for saying that events didn't play out super quickly. Events where we know time is compressed is like in the middle of a fight, or when Dio gives a timeframe of "5 seconds" then gives a whole speech in that time. In those moments then talking is a free action, but not necessarily at all times.

At least, that's how I understand it. I can see how others would have a different perspective.

 

[Cyberblader90]

it was 15 seconds in the anime that the roots finished growing

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We can't use words per minute to figure out a specific timeframe, but if characters have a long conversation in a moment where we don't know that time is supposed to be compressed, then it is valid for saying that events didn't play out super quickly. Events where we know time is compressed is like in the middle of a fight, or when Dio gives a timeframe of "5 seconds" then gives a whole speech in that time. In those moments then talking is a free action, but not necessarily at all times.

At least, that's how I understand it. I can see how others would have a different perspective.

Right and by the end of the series we have characters in Naruto carrying out conversations while fighting at MHS+ to FTL speeds. At which point it's more consistent to take speech as a free action during feats and not use it as any metric for time.

 

[Damage3245]

Right and by the end of the series we have characters in Naruto carrying out conversations while fighting at MHS+ to FTL speeds. At which point it's more consistent to take speech as a free action during feats and not use it as any metric for time.

... I just said that? Talking being a free action during actual fights is something I think is fine. I'm just saying that doesn't apply universally throughout a series.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

... I just said that? Talking being a free action during actual fights is something I think is fine. I'm just saying that doesn't apply universally throughout a series.

Gotcha, I thought you were defending Reio35's point inherently. But if that's not the case nvm then. Also, thoughts on this:

Well if the roots split, the chunk from which they split from would be much larger than the split roots. Like if you cut something in half the two pieces have the same volume as the original piece. So why does the potential of root splitting inherently mean a different volume?

 

[Damage3245]

Gotcha, I thought you were defending Reio35's point inherently. But if that's not the case nvm then. Also, thoughts on this:

Roots splitting off from another root isn't quite the same as something being cut in half and therefore having the same overall volume. I'll see if I can explain it in detail tomorrow but I'm sure that @DontTalkDT knows what I mean, if he can address that at same point while I'm offline.

 

[GTsek]

So, I was looking at the anime to see how they portray the jutsu, and DFE in general. From what I found, it's far more in line with this example here. We see with DFE that the entire root moves (first 30s of the video), and as far as the visuals portray it isn't a case of appending mass to the tip of the root, but rather simply growing the root as per what you'd traditionally think. If Madara were just adding mass on to the end of the root, the portions behind it would be still once the mass grew past that portion, but rather we see the entire root moving the entire time

I was inclined to disagree, but this answer makes perfect sense, so I agree.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

 

[Arcker123]

 

[Ratherlarge]

Didn't Death Battle mention something about this before?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

literally everyone has mentioned sumn about this feat one point or another, regardless this can be closed for the time being I have some changes to make to the calc and idk when I’ll be able to make them.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. I'll temporarily close it. I won't really be able to get involved either until beginning of next month.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Okay. I'll temporarily close it. I won't really be able to get involved either until beginning of next month.

I believe I have solved the root issue with the new calc.

 

[Halkum145]

I believe I have solved the root issue with the new calc.

What was the result and if you made a blog can I get a link?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What was the result and if you made a blog can I get a link?

It’s linked in the OP

 

[Halkum145]

It’s linked in the OP

yes it took me a while to realize that it changed the thing there. I hope it will be accepted and there will be solid 5b support for isshiki. (also what's the latest on toneri low5b calculation?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

also what's the latest on toneri low5b calculation?

Not the thread for discussing that this thread is just for Madara’s wood

 

[Deceived3596]

Not the thread for discussing that this thread is just for Madara’s wood

I hope while you're walking randomly down some road or street a giant ******* slab of concrete just falls directly on top of your head.

But back on topic, the calc seems fine to me, but please take that with a massive grain of salt, i'm terrible at math (and by extension calcs) so i could definitely be wrong, take Damage's, DontTalk's, Arc's or literally any Calc members opinion on this massively above mine.

 

[Halkum145]

Not the thread for discussing that this thread is just for Madara’s wood

I hope it will be accepted. (accurate to me)

 

[Halkum145]

what is your opinion? @Damage3245