Diglett's tier

[Unclechairman]

The tiers of Diglett and it's evolution Dugtrio are based on taking the numbers from Magnitude at face value and assuming they're equal to an earthquake of equal rating on the Richter scale. The problems with this is that I don't recall anything in-game justifying such an assumption, the fact that there are several other Pokemon that can learn Magnitude, which would put all of them at high 6-C simply because they can learn a move, and even more given that Earthquake, a move that is generally stronger than Magnitude, can be learned by an even greater number of Pokemon through TM, and that this puts an unevolved Pokemon above the legendary birds, which seems incredibly wrong in my eyes.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Well. Diglett can cause huge earthquakes according to its Gen 1 Dex entry.

A team of Diglett triplets. It triggers huge earthquakes by burrowing 60 miles underground.

According to this, a "Major" Earthquake is a Magnitude 7-7.9 and a "Great" Earthquake is Magnitude 8 or above.

Using this calculator for Earthquakes, we'd get the following vales.

Magnitude 7 - 1.995262e+15 Joules - 476 Kilotons (Large Town level)

Magnitude 7.9 - 4.466836e+16 - 10 Megatons (City level)

Magnitude 8 - 6.309573e+16 - 15 Megatons (City level)

So his Tier should be changed to "Large Town level to City level" or just Large Town level.

Since Diglett is just a single Dugtrio, the result would be cut in 3, so Large Town level - Small City level

 

[Unclechairman]

This is based off the Pokedex entry and not from the fact that it can learn Magnitude/Earthquake, right?

If so, this seems fine. Onix has a similar feat, I should point out.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Yes, its based off Dugtrio causing "Huge Earthquakes" in a dex entry.

I can't seem to find Onix's Earthquake feat, was it done in the anime/manga?

 

[Unclechairman]

No, it's from the Pokedex. It's also much more vague. From Bulbapedia:

"When it travels underground, it causes rumbling and tremors. It can move at 50 mph." - Pokemon Diamond.

"It twists and squirms through the ground. The thunderous roar of its tunneling echoes a long way." - Pokemon Gold/HeartGold.

 

[PaChi2]

TM moves arent canon for tiering, only moves learnable through breeding.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with the downgrade.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I doubt there is any other scale using "Magnitude" to measure Earthquakes. I think it's pretty clear that it's meant to be on the Ritcher scale.

I don't see why we wouldn't use Magnitude 10 here. Just using 8 or whatever seems abritrary af

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Don't worry we were already going to revise either diglett or the legendaries anyway.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

@Saikou. Well, I made a power chart for Magnitude Earthquakes and if we were to use Mag 10 on Radiated Waves, we'd get Island level (15 GT) or Island level+ with 10.5 (84 GT). I'm personally fine with Island level Dugtrio.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I however, am not.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Mag 9 is Mountain level, would that work then? Remember, Dugtro causes massive Earthquakes by Dex entry, not move. I don't think anything below Mag 9 or 8 is considered a "huge Earthquake". Using Mag 7 is a huge lowball as is.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If we use the "Can't be higher than Legendary" logic, no one could be higher than Town

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

If anything, regional Legendaries would scale off of Pokemon in their region if they don't have anything else to scale too. To my knowledge, weren't all Regional stuff in Gen 1 scaled up to Small Country level regardless?

I'm fine with Island level Dugtrio, or Mountain level Dugtrio. Anything lower seems like a massive lowball based on preconceived notions that X Pokemon must be weak.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Dark we were talking about scaling the regional legends to the Pokemon of the region.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Here's the thing about Island level Dugtrio, or even Mountain level Diglett:

• Implies that the fully evolved starters are nothing to it (even though all 3 are not only supposed to be ace-in-the-holes [evidenced by every media], but all have a type advantage)
• A herd of Digletts and Dugtrios were scared s***less by the legendary birds. From miles away. Despite the fact that that many would wipe them and Lugia from the earth. Also, they should've killed Delia and Oak just by moving, considering the reason they are as strong as they are.
• All pseudo legendaries are nothing to it, even though the anime and spin-off games consider Dragonite a legendary. Possibly the manga.
• A single Diglett would be capable of wiping Cinnibar from the map. A Dugtrio, most of Kanto from the map.
• Dugtrios would be coveted by trainers (Note how Pokemon like Charizard, Gyarados, and Dragonite are what trainers want)

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

1. Keep in mind that Gen 3 Game starters basically cap at Small Building/Building level from their dex entries, but Exploud and Shiftry have Building to Multi-City Block feats respectively.

2. Its not like Dugtrio can sense how powerful an opponent is just by looking at it, it see's a big, scary looking bird so of course its gonna be scared. Second off, most of, if not all of Dugtrio's moves are earthbound so it can't even touch a flying enemy. Third off, aren't the birds Small Country regardless?

3. Pseudo Legendary is a fanon term. Metagross is only City Block level anyway.

4. Well, Earthquakes doesn't completely and utterly destroy the landscape. We have 10.5 Mag Earthquakes IRL and you don't see continents getting split and crushed left and right.

Edit: I realized in hindsight that this came off as aggressive and for that I apologize. I have edited out the aggressive bits. Sorry dude.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm talking about Gen 1 starters, when the manga, anime, and games are portrayed as among the strongest Pokemon. Note how I said that they all have a type advantage over Dugtrio, so I definitely meant gen 1.

Yes. It can. All Pokemon can. Explicitly stated that in the movie. And Diglett can still learn Slash (for some reason). The birds are only possibly small country, and regardless, that many should be able to stomp them.

I stated Dragonite for a reason, who gen 1 portrayed as almost a legendary. Misty's dream was to catch "the legendary dragon of the sea." The trading card video game has Dragonite alongside the 3 birds (forgot if Mewtwo was there or not), and that set was literally called legendary. Lance's Dragonite in the manga in general. Etc.

That's because it's dispersed over a large area, they're not common, and aren't caused by moving. If Dugtrio was island, there are countless living in Diglett cave. That place would have collapsed ages ago. Probably Vermillion along with it.

 

[Unclechairman]

"Second off, most of, if not all of Dugtrio's moves are earthbound so it can't even touch a flying enemy."

Sucker Punch, among others.

"Third off, aren't the birds Small Country regardless?"

Is this based off that calc of Lugia's wing flaps? If so, I don't recall that calc ever being properly looked over and validated. There's another calc of the same feat which came out as only City level.

"We have 10.5 Mag Earthquakes IRL and you don't see continents getting split and crushed left and right."

You do, however, have massive destruction of human settlements and property on par with a hurricane, on top of massive tidal waves causing further damage. One wonders how Vermillion Cty could even exist with a cave literally swarming with such monsters a short walk away.

 

[Unclechairman]

I doubt there is any other scale using "Magnitude" to measure Earthquakes. I think it's pretty clear that it's meant to be on the Ritcher scale.
I don't see why we wouldn't use Magnitude 10 here. Just using 8 or whatever seems abritrary af

The Richter scale is outdated and has been replaced by the Moment magnitude scale since it is inefficient at calcing stronger quakes.

Magnitude 10 rarely ever pops up. Generally, in situations like this, you'd use the lowest number to be safe. The lowest I've seen Magnitude go is 6.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Lucky. Magnitude has hit 4 multiple times for me.

 

[Unclechairman]

It's just from my memory, but yeah, Magnitude is incredibly unreliable. Stick with Earthquake.

 

[PaChi2]

cant he have Island level attack potency/environmental destruction through hax (like generating eq) while dugtrio physically being inferior?

 

[Blahblah9755]

@UncleChairman iirc the current Lugia wing flap storm calc is used over the city level one because the old one was calced as a thunderstorm or something similar, which wouldn't make sense to be created from wings flapping. I don't know how thoroughly it was checked, but there was a thread or two about it where it was decided as okay to use.

 

[Unclechairman]

@UncleChairman iirc the current Lugia wing flap storm calc is used over the city level one because the old one was calced as a thunderstorm or something similar, which wouldn't make sense to be created from wings flapping.

Lugia's Pokedex entries literally state it creates thunderstorms by flapping its wings. Sure, it doesn't make much sense, but does it need to?

 

[Blahblah9755]

It just says storm, not thunderstorm.

 

[Unclechairman]

You get the point.

 

[LordAizenSama]

>Is this based off that calc of Lugia's wing flaps? If so, I don't recall that calc ever being properly looked over and validated. There's another calc of the same feat which came out as only City level.

If i recall I brought this up ages ago and nothing ever came of it.

 

[Unclechairman]

I brought it up twice, once before I left on a break, where some progress was made with Lord Kavpeny taking a look at it before it was left hanging. Then I tried bringing it up again a few months ago in Lugia's discussion page. No one even replied.

Can you ensure it gets properly evaluated this time?

 

[LordAizenSama]

A content revision thread would get the most recognition for it. Do you have the link for the city level calc?

EDIT; nevermind, found it.

 

[Blahblah9755]

You get the point.

No, I don't see why it would make more sense to use a thunderstorm over a wind based storm when all it says is storm and it has the context of being based on the flapping of wings.

 

[Unclechairman]

The point is that you don't just normally make storms of any kind by flapping your wings. Flapping wings do not normally spontaneously cause storm clouds to form.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Note that the said storm in question was done near, or at a large body of water. Reading the Pokedex entry where Lugia is said to live in a trenches deep in the bottom of the ocean, it is likely that Lugia's storm feat was created directly where the ocean is.

The Whirl Islands is surrounded by a massive ocean, and Lugia resides on the Whirl Islands.

Alternatively, tropical storms/cyclones occur mostly in large bodies of water, such as an ocean. As such, a storm that Lugia is able to produce via flapping its wings would likely be something like this one.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Well, a Tornado is a storm, and it's pretty much wind despite most often forming from a thunderstorm.

That or a microburst that in some cases, can cause comparable damage to a tornado, though it's not really a storm.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Gemmysaur: Do note that the storm in question was done on above an ocean, and not above solid ground like the image above.

Tropical storms/cyclones are usually formed over oceans, where Lugia is residing in.

 

[Gemmysaur]

If that's the case, then actual storms with plenty of water for Lugia is a thing.

Oh, and iirc, microbursts can happen on water too.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Okay, I believe that Unclechairman mentioned something about moment magnitude, as it is used to calculate earthquakes on a larger scale.

However, we are not allowed to use moment magnitude here on the Wikia for some reason.