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Diamond Days Discussion

Steven Universe has a lot of homages to anime

heck one of the episdoes had annimation from Studio Trigger iirc
 
Sir Ovens said:
I freaking love how the whole show has been leading up to "Steven is a fusion of himself".
And to think, it all started with people thinking that Rebecca ripped off Dragon Ball.
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The whole point was basically to show that, he was never his mother, it really was just Steven all along.
 
Not saying y'all are wrong for liking it but it was really bad imo. Rushed, forced, and extraordinarily predictable to the point of being hard to predict. Most people thought that there was no way that Steven would be able to talk or "feel" his way past White Diamond. It had been foreshadowed several times that she would never waver so it was inferred that Steven would have to realize that not all problems can be solved with talking. And some people are just bad. But NOPE. He manages to befriend and talk down space Hitler-Stalin and everything is hunky dory, just like any other episode of SU.

Even when they set it up to be different and unique, the writers couldn't help but make it drab, unoriginal, and stupid. I'm so glad everything ended well and the genocidal planet busters can go on ending worlds. But hey! At least they're OK with Earth now!
 
I do agree that the whole "befriending the villain" thing shouldn't have been done with white diamond. From the way she was built up and the sheer amount of effort she went through for all of this planet conquering and destruction to be changed with a 5 minute talk.
 
@Torlikoff

Yep. It's that kind of hyper-shallow and forced garbage writing that made me give up on SU. It tries to be all emotional and deep when really the characters are hardly characters at all and everything is surface level. Feels like the writers are afraid to step out of the kiddie pool for whatever reason.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
@Torlikoff
Yep. It's that kind of hyper-shallow and forced garbage writing that made me give up on SU. It tries to be all emotional and deep when really the characters are hardly characters at all and everything is surface level. Feels like the writers are afraid to step out of the kiddie pool for whatever reason.
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Great to know that I'm not the only one that thinks "feel bad for the people who have murdered millions" idea is really dumb.
 
It just confuses me here because the show has done character who weren't swayed by love and stuff and you'd expect that the one person it wouldn't work on would be the person who's caused all of this.

I'm liking this less and less the more I think about it.
 
Holyhotsauce said:
Assaltwaffle said:
@Torlikoff
Yep. It's that kind of hyper-shallow and forced garbage writing that made me give up on SU. It tries to be all emotional and deep when really the characters are hardly characters at all and everything is surface level. Feels like the writers are afraid to step out of the kiddie pool for whatever reason.
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Great to know that I'm not the only one that thinks "feel bad for the people who have murdered millions" idea is really dumb.
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I mean, forgiving someone for doing something that's bad without forgetting what they did has been a constant theme in the show.
 
@CinnabarManx

Someone who is capable of extinguishing races like candles will not be talked down at all, whether or not the evils he/she has committed are unforgivable.

Also you can't remember what the Diamonds did and still feel any sympathy for them. Hundreds of planets obliterated; billions, if not trillions, murdered heartlessly. Even if in the end White, Blue, and Yellow didn't learn compassion for anyone but Pink. They learned to love and accept one of their closest family members. Congratu-freaking-lations, you now are on par with almost every murderer and genocidal maniac throughout history.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
@CinnabarManx
Someone who is capable of extinguishing races like candles will not be talked down at all, whether or not the evils he/she has committed are unforgivable.

Also you can't remember what the Diamonds did and still feel any sympathy for them. Hundreds of planets obliterated; billions, if not trillions, murdered heartlessly. Even if in the end White, Blue, and Yellow didn't learn compassion for anyone but Pink. They learned to love and accept one of their closest family members. Congratu-freaking-lations, you now are on par with almost every murderer and genocidal maniac throughout history.
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Assalt, I agree, and I don't feel sympathy for that. But let me ask you one question, what else could Steven have done in that situation exactly?
 
@CinnabarManx

Found a way to kill White. And I don't mean poof, I mean shatter/kill. When push comes to shove, some people will not change. For the good of everyone, you have to be able to take a life if reason doesn't do the job.

It would be hard, sure, especially if she is "family", but sometimes you can't put yourself or your feelings first when people's live are counting on you doing what needs to be done. The Diamonds are still going to be tyrant lords of their planet and genocidal conquerors. Humanizing someone is one thing. Ignoring the inhuman things he/she has done is another.
 
I think the demonization of that lady who suggested killing people in a war was dumb. Why exactly is she so bad for wanting to permakill the leaders of a force bent on annihilation to avert further carnage? I haven't seen much of the show, only really catching some when I was away with family since I have younger relatives who love it, but that episode stuck with me as really dumb.
 
@Wokistan

SU has a very "Batman" outlook on killing. They act like it is some corrupting abomination that is evil to commit, even if it is for the greater good.

It also makes all soldiers and judges look bad, since you could easily ask "why do they kill/sentence people to death?" They do that because it is necessary for the protection of those you care about and for the greater good. Now you crank the threat level of the people they are killing up by around 1,000,000 times and you have these world-ending monstrosities that, for some reason, it is wrong to kill.
 
Okay, now here's why that's a terrible idea. Do you remember WHY they came to Homeworld in the first place? It was to get White Diamond's help, to heal the corrupted gems. Now, that'd be pretty difficult if she was dead now eh? And it would doom hundreds of corrupted gems to forever be monsters of their former selves.

And yes, lives were counting on him. The gems's lives and he would've gotten all of them killed if he killed White. I doubt Homeworld would just let them go after killing one of their leaders.

Also, it wasn't like White got off scott free either. She became off-colored as a result of what Steven did. That's a fate worse than death for someone who's supposed to be perfect. That completly f'd with her mind and made her question her whole existence. Being off-colored is one of the worst things that can happen to a gem, and now she is too.

Also, you're complaining that it's stupid that he was able to get through to White, and yet you think it'd be better if he just randomly found some way to kill her? Just some deus ex machina out of nowhere would've been a more fitting end eh? That's your idea of a good ending? Enough plot armor to stop a Tier 0 from being able to hurt you? At least there was buildup and suspense to the ending we got, but that'd just be lazy.

Also, that would not only go against the whole principle of Steven's character, but the show's message too. Violence only begets more violence has been a constant theme in the show. Their abuse of Pink led her to abandoning Homworld, which led her to starting a war to free the Earth, which led to the Diamonds retaliating and corrupting all the gems, which eventually led to them fighting in Reunited, which led to the fights in BoHaM, you see what I'm getting at? If he had used violence to stop White it would only have led to more suffering for everyone. You can't fight fire with fire, it only makes a bigger fire.
 
I'm more inclined to think that the entire message of the show is flawed, what with it being presented in this sort of way. Mantaining thematic consistency is all well and good, but I am questioning the theme itself. Sometimes, idealism must give way to more pragmatic pursuits, and it would have been better if they were able to at least add more nuance to it. I get its a kids show and all but there are better ways to portray a pacifistic message than redeeming the space Nazis.
 
I think he was referencing Frieza. To be fair on him, he's already died twice and I don't think anyone really want to try to kill him anymore cause they know he's coming back because of P L O T.
 
Although, I do not like straight out kill "bad guy", I would prefer a punishment or destruction (in a metaphorical way), is more fair and can even be satisfactory. I do not agree that much by letting the Diamond get away with it without any type of rebuke, there's still few un-dead gems that are living a possible hell within their own bodies.
 
I'd never described White as Napoleon XD

But yeah, for how good the finale was, I found the redemption of White weak. It felt like it took less efforts than Blue and Yellow
 
@CinnabarManx

While it's sad that the corrupted gems would have to stay corrupted, that's the cost of doing wrong. Unless you're some magic space being you can't reverse planetary genocide. Also that's still only gems, not the beings they've destroyed.

Even if the gems are all healed, they are still totalitarian leaders that will wipe out entire planets. Steven traded the corruption of several hundred/thousand gems for the inevitable lives of billions more sentient beings.

Steven already wore the strongest plot armor in history with his half-gem self managing to stop White's attacks.

Also there is a way to do it: the gem ship mecha or his mental powers. Either he could use the ship to destroy her or he could go with the indirect approach and use the indirect approach to beat White from the inside out by either destroying or sealing her consciousness, if you don't want to go the full killing route.

Steven's "whole character" and the "message" is stupid, unrealistic, and idealistic. Sometimes you have to make hard and violent choices for the greater good. You can't talk down people like Osama Bin Laden, Hilter, or Joseph Stalin, all of whom pale in comparison to White when it comes to tainted mindset. You can fight fire with fire if that fire is subsequently extinguished. Look at modern Germany or any country with a now killed/executed leader. Most are not still undergoing problems or the deaths of those leaders themselves did nothing but serve a better future.

The view that killing is never the right answer is naive.
 
@Cal

Even if the White Diamond plotpoint wasn't stupid, they still rushed everything so hard.

Yellow: I'm not going to help you and I'm turning Pink in.

Blue: I won't let you.

Yellow: I'll fight you.

Blue: But I'm sad.

Yellow: I'm sad too.

And then all of a sudden Steven manages to fuse with everyone because we need to show what all the possible fusions would look like, which we do in around 2 minutes flat.
 
So how does the scaling fall after all of this?


Also for pink steven surviving WD's attack, that was the same beam she used to take over the other gems so it may not have been a physical attack at all.
 
Welp, that's pretty selfish and cruel dont ya think? "I'm gonna scarifice the lives of hundreds of thousands of gems because I wanna kill White." Doesn't seem very fair to them eh? Also, we have no idea what the Diamonds are going to do after this experience, please stop assuming things.

Ok A) White had control of the ship, no way Steven could have gotten to it. and B) White was already interrupting his mental powers in Together Alone, so she can likley resist his mindhax.

Hate to break it to you, but real life countries clearly don't apply here. After Pink was "shattered" Blue became emotionally unstable, Yellow become cold and withdrawn, White refused to leave her own head, and Homeworld went through a resource crisis which its still suffering through. I can't even begin to imagine the downward spiral HW would've gone through f White died. And then even more suffering for the citizens of the Gempire, is that really what you want? Can you not see that more violence will only lead to more suffering? A fire cannot and can never extinguish another fire, they will only combine into a bigger fire and will only extinguish once evrything has burned away, leaving nothing behind.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
@CinnabarManx

While it's sad that the corrupted gems would have to stay corrupted, that's the cost of doing wrong. Unless you're some magic space being you can't reverse planetary genocide. Also that's still only gems, not the beings they've destroyed.

Even if the gems are all healed, they are still totalitarian leaders that will wipe out entire planets. Steven traded the corruption of several hundred/thousand gems for the inevitable lives of billions more sentient beings.

Steven already wore the strongest plot armor in history with his half-gem self managing to stop White's attacks.

Also there is a way to do it: the gem ship mecha or his mental powers. Either he could use the ship to destroy her or he could go with the indirect approach and use the indirect approach to beat White from the inside out by either destroying or sealing her consciousness, if you don't want to go the full killing route.

Steven's "whole character" and the "message" is stupid, unrealistic, and idealistic. Sometimes you have to make hard and violent choices for the greater good. You can't talk down people like Osama Bin Laden, Hilter, or Joseph Stalin, all of whom pale in comparison to White when it comes to tainted mindset. You can fight fire with fire if that fire is subsequently extinguished. Look at modern Germany or any country with a now killed/executed leader. Most are not still undergoing problems or the deaths of those leaders themselves did nothing but serve a better future.

The view that killing is never the right answer is naive.
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Y'all, about a children's show about self love and acceptance: how do I make this way more complicated than it is?
 
It's hundreds of gem's lives compared to the billions of lives of planets they conquered, though how the show will address this in the next season (in around 40 years)is important.

I also find it funny that these discussions can happen for a show that started with a kid getting magic powers from eating ice cream.
 
Yeah TBH this discussion is kinda dumb. Gonna drop it here honestly.

I just wanna talk about the fun new episodes not get into philosophical arguments ovo.
 
I'll say this last thing on this subject: people REALLY need to stop comparing children's cartoon villains to real life tyrants. If Steven Universe were actually marketed towards an older audience then yeah sure they'd probably tackle that kind of issue, but not in this show. This ain't the show for that chief.
 
It's just that the show does some thing so maturely you get spoiled and expect that for everything, not thinking about how ultimately it's just not that kind of show.

On a side note, who the hell is the villain for the movie going to be? We've hit the ceiling in how far villains can go with the intergalactic space rulers.
 
What i found stupid was how we need multiple episodes for the diamonds to be somewhat supportive (even though they could have done much better, perhaps convinced them earth is still a colony, but run differently), but White Diamond legit crumbles when it turns out Steven is just Steven and then listens.

Like why does it take one episode for apparently the hardest diamond to convince but YD and BD still get their subpar reasoning, or at least YD.

The hiatus killed the hype for the show tbh but i cant say i didnt enjoy it. Ofc Obsidian is slicing up the Diamond warships like paper
 
Honestly, if SU is going to continue, we would have heard any confirmtion it would end after this, then its probably going to have to introduce to us some new aliens aside from the gems. How worse than the diamonds, while still being now complete homies with the diamonds, and completing the mission the CG were always trying to do, can you get?

Also dont like Garnets new outfit, its mainly the shades looking out of place. heck Lapis got a bit of a downgrade too, the baggy mom 'around the house' pants compared to her dress, nah. Disappointed Peri didnt get star hair too rip.
 
You can't really pull the "children's show" card when the show tries to be mature and emotional. If it wants to be emotional and cover hard topics like tyrants, war, and planetary destruction, you can't sugar coat everything.

If you don't want to deal with "sometimes killing has to be done", don't make a story around something that will inevitably lead to such a lesson.

Also you can't cry "kids show" about it too much either because it isn't super mature or shallow; look at Iron Giant. A kids' movie that's mature, real, and also appropriate for most audiences. You can make good content for any age group without having a bad narrative.
 
I hate the argument that just cause it's a kids show, it can't be clever or nuanced. Look at Regular Show, Over the Garden Wall, and Star vs the Forces of Evil. Those shows can have genuinely good plotlines and some adult themes covered by the guise of being a kids show. That's why they're good. They didn't have some deeper message or agenda with their shows like SU, they just had effort put into the writing.

Go watch how they make Regular Show. They sit around at a table and spit out random ideas and put the ones that make them laugh on sticky notes and use them for future episodes. What was the ending of Regular Show? Anti-Pops erasing the plot of the show and bringing it down to the level of sticky notes.

Clever, and nuanced.

Can't have that in SU when the whole operation is driven by Rebecca's unadulterated vision.
 
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