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Death Battle REMATCH | Naruto vs Ichigo GRACE

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Duedate8898 said:
Eh, saying we only debate based on the profiles is a bit odd for Ichigo's profile as his ability keys don't match up with his Stat keys. When he is in possession of which abilities isn't evident without either knowing the series yourself or being told so. As Ichigo doesn't possess anything but his Fullbring abilities in his first key, or how he doesn't have access to creating the Getsuga Jūjishō until his True Zanpakuto key, or how he doesn't have acceess to the Gran Rey Cero Getsuga Tenshō until his Merged Form key, etc.

If Ichigo still maintains his powers, he still maintains his powers, but the profile isn't very clear on that
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If you need me to walk you through the distinctions of his True Zanpakuto and FULLBRING Zanpakuto I can. But yes he has Fullbring abilities with his Zanpakuto that is fused and enhanced with his Fullbring.

Kidkinsey said:
Outside of the pills have we seen Hollow Corruption just start to weaken somebody? There's been plenty of Hollow fights in the verse I don't recall them just passively weakening people
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That’s because every other Hollow fight prior in the series involves characters that have antibodies. Also, I don’t need to show further examples, I provided evidence that supports my claim. It’s on you to either refute my argument or concede, I don’t owe more evidence than I’ve provided rn.
 
Well, I had my fun here. Clearly I need to get better at debating as you might'vs seen. I guess it was fun doing this. See ya next time.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
That’s because every other Hollow fight prior in the series involves characters that have antibodies. Also, I don’t need to show further examples, I provided evidence that supports my claim. It’s on you to either refute my argument or concede, I don’t owe more evidence than I’ve provided rn.
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Wasnt it stated Quincy don't. Uyru during his hueco Mundo fights vs other hollows wasn't getting passively weaker
 
Kidkinsey said:
Wasnt it stated Quincy don't. Uyru during his hueco Mundo fights vs other hollows wasn't getting passively weaker
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Kubo stated in Klub Outside that Uryu is a special Quincy
Q: In volume 62 of the manga, Urahara mentioned that Quincies have no 'antibodies' against Hollows. However, Uryu Ishida was exposed to Szayel Aporro's attacks and had his arm cut off by Ulquiorra. Do these attacks not fall under the category of 'Soul Suicide' that Urahara spoke of? Or is Uryu special?

Answer: Yes, Uryu is special.
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Updated the OP, Ichigo got 10 votes while Naruto has none, and one vote for incon. To all the Naruto supporters, now's the time to cast your votes.
 
If by some reason Naruto does manage to create some time to use Asura, What would be Ichigo’s answer to The ultra big rasen bijuu 2 shuriken?
 
This match is equal speed, so Ichigo out-maneuvering is non-existent even with his speed-amps. Flash-step and ect don't really help him out here in any manner unless you say Sonido but he really doesn't do that in character. Their sensory should be equal as well with Ichigo sensing everyone getting killed in the Soul Society and Naruto being able to sense Sasuke Dimension's apart as well as Madara's limbo, so Ichigo isn't distinguishing the clones from the real Naruto even Sasuke with he Rinnegan couldn't. Especially when Naruto uses the Reigon Combo which even forces Kaguya to run away from all of them, whom is massively stronger.

I like the temperature argument there are some issues I have with it, Royd Yhwach was only withstanding Yama's heat because of Blut vene and that he'd be reduced to ashes if not for it and which seemingly also let's a lesser Quincy even tank Yama's heat. Then there's the real Ywhach who stole Yama's bankai before he could use it again, making it seem like it would still be a threat to him but Ichigo never hurt Ywhach with Blut Vene, he was only harmed because he was careless but he no-sells the first one Ichigo throws.

Another argument for Ichigo that I like however like I've said prior Naruto has dealt with corruption leading to death, tailed beasts corrupt their host spiritually using hatred or insecurities to take over, for example the nine-tails corrupting naruto on many occasions until he was able to combat this head-on, which Kushina is only holding Kurama in place, Naruto is the one dispelling the corruption via his will-power and we literally had this happening as he is gaining tails rapidly which is also biological hence the transformation and is said numerous times to kill Naruto if he failed, even with eating small amounts of a tailed beast as Kinkaku and Ginkaku have succeeded where others have failed.

I think is disproves a couple of Ichigo's win-cons but there's a major one for Naruto but Ichigo may be resistant to it and that's Nature Energy. It's said here that If Ichigo is releasing large amounts of reiatsu that reiatsu around him is absorbed into his body, which leads to the point of if Ichigo is destroying clones of Naruto with "Getsuga Spam" as everyone was saying and they're spamming Sage-Rasenshurikens even near him then Ichigo will turn into a frog statue via absorbing Nature energy with no idea on how to control it. This doesn't account for Frog-Slap or Frog-Kata which all of his 1K clones and possibly more can utilize and means Naruto can gather enough Nature energy to eclipse Ichigo.

Nature Energy Via Ichigo absorbing it himself, Frog-slap, Gathering NE enough to kill Ichigo, One-sided amps in Naruto's favor including his clones go, Chakra amp from Kurama and the other 8 TB, Boil-release, Nine-tails Avatars, TSO that can nullify Ichigo's attacks, speed is equalized and Ichigo starts in bankai so no AP amps as far as I'm aware as the rules say such.

Kudo's to Arc!
Arc7Kuroi said:
Alright, let me give an actual argument for Ichigo.

Ichigo’s high speed movement technique while in his Fullbring Bankai state would incorporate aspects of Sonido, Shunpo, and Bringer Light as Ichigo makes use of his Shinigami, Hollow, and Fullbring powers while in this form. This gives Ichigo a bit of an advantage when it comes to high speed movement (HSM) techniques, as not only does combining different HSM techniques provide a greater speed amp than just a regular Shunpo (which is already consistently an FTE amp), but it also makes Ichigo harder to sense as Sonido and Bringer Light both either entirely bypass or make it extremely difficult for extrasensory techniques to sense. So, Ichigo’s HSM technique should be superior to Naruto’s body flicker, as body flicker and Shunpo are both portrayed as FTE amps, and Ichigo’s HSM technique is well beyond that of a Shunpo amp. Not to mention, Naruto would have a harder time tracking Ichigo than he would normally. And to top it off, Ichigo is consistently able to react to FTE movement techniques as early as the Soul Society arc when he does so against Byakuya. Hence, I believe Ichigo handily takes it in the speed department here when you compare what their respective speed amps can do.

The next point is an actual argument for Ichigo’s high temperature. The trillion degree calc is just blatantly not accepted and not useable, shame on whichever Bleach goon brought that up. However, the heat of Ichigo’s Black Getsuga is far I’ll far beyond Naruto’s resistances. Thanks to Klub Outside, we know that Royd Yhwach was only 70-80% of actual Yhwach’s capabilities (aka real Yhwach has better abilities, resistances, and power). Royd Yhwach was able to withstand the 15 million degree C passive heat aura of Yama’s Bankai. Meanwhile, Ichigo’s Black Getsuga was able to burn the actual Yhwach. Meaning that FB Bankai Ichigo’s Black Getsuga would have heat on the order of millions of degrees C, which would vaporize Naruto on impact, as Naruto’s accepted heat resistances on wiki are nowhere closer to that value. All of this means is that if Ichigo tags Naruto with a single Black Getsuga, it’s victory for Ichigo.

Lastly, I’d like to address the corruption points since 1) the Bleach supporters cannot articulate that point to save their lives and 2) the Naruto supporters are misunderstanding how Hollow corruption functions. Hollow corruption does take immediate effect on those without antibodies when it’s delivered in high enough dosages. We see this verbatim with the Hollow pills Kisuke distributes to the Captains, as the second they Hollowfy their Bankai, the Sternritter fountain blood from their bodies and cease functioning (as seen with Cang Du and BG9). However, this is not the case for all Sternritter, exceptionally powerful Schrift holders (like Bambi and Quilge for example) have some level of resistance to this corruption. When Komamura’s Bankai Hollowfies Bambi don’t adversely affected at all, and Quilge is able to incorporate Ayon (one of the stronger Hollows alive in the series at this point) into his very being without adverse affects. I bring this up to dispel the notion that Hollow corruption is this slow steady disease. It is very much quick, almost instant, in high dosages for those that lack sufficient antibodies and/or the proper resistances. So, the reason Quilge doesn’t get Hollow corrupted GG by Ichigo is because he has the capability to resist the corruption (as seen by being able to incorporate Ayon), and as for the Bambis we know they possess the capability to resist as well (we see this with Bambietta, and the rest of the troupe are rather comparable to each other). Furthermore, True Shikai Ichigo has mastery over his powers, his Hollow powers normally lay dormant in True Shikai (as seen with how he had to wake White up), and until he fights Yhwach he’s constantly holding back as to not kill the Sternritter. All of the instances of “but why didn’t Ichigo auto Hollow corruption GG them” are easily explained away by the people he fights having capabilities of resisting said corruption or Ichigo actively trying not to kill them. After all, the very plot significant reason that no one could steal Ichigo’s Bankai was due to his immense Hollow power that intertwined with his Shinigami powers. So, yes Naruto, who lacks any resistance to Hollow corruption, would very shortly after the battle starts begin to weaken and deteriorate as his very soul becomes poisoned by Hollow reiatsu.

Putting all this together, I believe there’s good reason to claim Ichigo takes it here. Superior speed amp techniques, blatant one shot techniques he can spam, as well as a passive Hollow corruption that’ll make Naruto weaker as the fight goes on, leads me to believe Ichigo should take this. Without means to blitz and one shot Ichigo, the fight will inevitably drag out long enough for Ichigo to tag a weakened Naruto with a Black Getsuga, turning him to vapor.
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Speed amps are very much relevant. Ichigo can stack 3 FTE amps variants that make him incredibly hard to sense due to their properties on top of constant power and speed upgrade via rage boosts and reactive power level. And this version of Ichigo very much do use bringer light and sonido in characther.

The clones are useless due to Ichigo reiatsu constantly applying his higher AP to them constantly and passivelly. Naruto may resist the soul aspect now, but he will still take the physical pressure of the reiatsu wich is superior to his durability and while Naruto himself may be able to tank the pressure for a bit, his clones have even lower durability compared to him as proven multiple times.They will pop very quickly without Ichigo having to do anything. Also the rinnegan have no feat of sensing souls directly so the argument that Ichigo can't discern the real Naruto from the clones because Sasuke can't is invalid.

Even if Ichigo GT heat massivelly downscale from Yama 15 Millions, he would still vape naruto.

Characthers that already have resistance to the hollow corruption still need to deconstruct it at the macro quantum spiritual level to be able to intake it without much trouble. Naruto's soul is not resisting that level of corruption.

The stone statue point is interresting but would nature energy be comparable enough to reiatsu for Ichigo to absorb it ? Nature energy is closer to reishi (Elements found all around both verses and can be used for power) wich is completely different to reiatsu.
The toad tranformation/petrification also only happen when you are failing to balance it with your chakra ammount. Meaning Ichigo would need to absorb enough nature energy to surpass his current ammount of reiryoku , wich i really don't see happening any time soon considering his massive reserves.

Still voting Ichigo.
 
Raiden_Azno said:
Kudo's to Arc!
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buzz-lightyear-woody.gif


Raiden_Azno said:
This match is equal speed, so Ichigo out-maneuvering is non-existent even with his speed-amps. Flash-step and ect don't really help him out here in any manner unless you say Sonido but he really doesn't do that in character. Their sensory should be equal as well with Ichigo sensing everyone getting killed in the Soul Society and Naruto being able to sense Sasuke Dimension's apart as well as Madara's limbo, so Ichigo isn't distinguishing the clones from the real Naruto even Sasuke with he Rinnegan couldn't. Especially when Naruto uses the Reigon Combo which even forces Kaguya to run away from all of them, whom is massively stronger.
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Unless the OP equalizes their speed amps, speed equal =/= speed amps don't matter. Also, anytime FB Bankai Ichigo uses a Hoho technique, it incorporates Sonido, Bringer Light, and Shunpo, by virtue of him incorporating his Hollow, Shinigami, and Fullbring powers into a one form. It's cool that Naruto has extrasensory perceptions, I'm not contesting that, but Sonido and Bringer Light enable people to bypass characters with extrasensory perceptions. Naruto's clones pop from damage far quicker and easier than it takes for the real Naruto to die. So the clones just succumb to Hollow corruption via my original argument and pop.

Raiden_Azno said:
I like the temperature argument there are some issues I have with it, Royd Yhwach was only withstanding Yama's heat because of Blut vene and that he'd be reduced to ashes if not for it and which seemingly also let's a lesser Quincy even tank Yama's heat. Then there's the real Ywhach who stole Yama's bankai before he could use it again, making it seem like it would still be a threat to him but Ichigo never hurt Ywhach with Blut Vene, he was only harmed because he was careless but he no-sells the first one Ichigo throws.
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I've already addressed the Royd have Blut argument as well as the Yhwach being off guard arguments above. Also, Bazz withstood the Shikai heat, so that's just a not relevant to this discussion.

Raiden_Azno said:
Another argument for Ichigo that I like however like I've said prior Naruto has dealt with corruption leading to death, tailed beasts corrupt their host spiritually using hatred or insecurities to take over, for example the nine-tails corrupting naruto on many occasions until he was able to combat this head-on, which Kushina is only holding Kurama in place, Naruto is the one dispelling the corruption via his will-power and we literally had this happening as he is gaining tails rapidly which is also biological hence the transformation and is said numerous times to kill Naruto if he failed, even with eating small amounts of a tailed beast as Kinkaku and Ginkaku have succeeded where others have failed.
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Naruto doesn't resist any type of corruption on his profile whatsoever. We aren't allowed to give characters resistances and abilities they don't have accepted on their profiles. That's like me arguing that Naruto is universal via scaling to Kaguya's ETSO to claim Naruto wins, despite that being explicitly not accepted.

Raiden_Azno said:
I think is disproves a couple of Ichigo's win-cons but there's a major one for Naruto but Ichigo may be resistant to it and that's Nature Energy. It's said here that If Ichigo is releasing large amounts of reiatsu that reiatsu around him is absorbed into his body, which leads to the point of if Ichigo is destroying clones of Naruto with "Getsuga Spam" as everyone was saying and they're spamming Sage-Rasenshurikens even near him then Ichigo will turn into a frog statue via absorbing Nature energy with no idea on how to control it. This doesn't account for Frog-Slap or Frog-Kata which all of his 1K clones and possibly more can utilize and means Naruto can gather enough Nature energy to eclipse Ichigo.
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Shinigami all have these reiatsu vents on their bodies that constantly push out spirit energy. Meaning Ichigo would passive vet his body of any nature energy, in the unlikely event that he exhausts himself to the point of being on like 0 energy. Which given that Ichigo's Getsuga would one shot swaths of Naruto clones and jutsu via vaporizing them with high heat, and Hollow corruption would be passively whittling them down as well, I don't believe that is likely.
 
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