DC/Crisis Cosmology Revision

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Shouldn´t the scaling be discussed on another thread specifically related to it, since this one is only about the cosmology?

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I´ve read throughout the thread, i´m a bit iffy on the 1-A scaling, but if others says it is fine then i´m okay with it, but otherwise i will remain neutral

The Cosmology supposedly having both String theory 11 dimensions and actual 11D brane dimensions it´s kinda of weird, but it looks acceptable to me

 

[Elizio33]

Shouldn´t the scaling be discussed on another thread specifically related to it, since this one is only about the cosmology?

---

I´ve read throughout the thread, i´m a bit iffy on the 1-A scaling, but if others says it is fine then i´m okay with it, but otherwise i will remain neutral

The Cosmology supposedly having both String theory 11 dimensions and actual 11D brane dimensions it´s kinda of weird, but it looks acceptable to me

Since The Hands are an important part of the cosmology (Unseen Council), i think we should discuss their Tier here. Low 1-A based on BDE seems acceptable to me.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Since The Hands are an important part of the cosmology (Unseen Council), i think we should discuss their Tier here. Low 1-A based on BDE seems acceptable to me.

Discussing The Hands here it´s fine, just the other characters that we shouldn´t discuss here then

 

[Elizio33]

Anyway. The flimsy white fabric behind the universe where universes are built and destroyed and then restarted mentioned by Psycho-Pirate in Infinite Frontier: Secret Files was clearly a reference to the "Great Light" mentioned in Morrison's Animal Man series, the manifestation of the absence behind reality where the ongoing process of creation and destruction takes place. The two descriptions are very similar and this should be applied to cosmology, although I don't think it would upgrade any realm.

Any thought about this ?

 

[Firestorm808]

OP seems okay

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Any thought about this ?

Neutral. Doesn't actually seem like the Great Light.

 

[Elizio33]

Neutral. Doesn't actually seem like the Great Light.

Maybe. But the same featureless space behind reality has been seen in other stories. Regardless, adding this or not will not affect the Tiers, unless it is the Great Light from Morrison's Animal Man series.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Maybe. But the same featureless space behind reality has been seen in other stories. Regardless, adding this or not will not affect the Tiers, unless it is the Great Light from Morrison's Animal Man series.

I don't think a concept like that, at least not by that specific name would be mentioned outside of Morrison's works. There will be synonyms but I don’t know think it's the exact same thing.

 

[Elizio33]

I don't think a concept like that, at least not by that specific name would be mentioned outside of Morrison's works. There will be synonyms but I don’t it's the exact same thing.

Yes.

 

[Elizio33]

Bump.

 

[Elizio33]

One question. We have Grant Morrison's description of Plane Time and Cube Time for Hypertime, is this still viable to use or does it seem too outdated? The current descriptions of Hypertime are:

A web of timestreams outside the Multiverse and, by extension, outside conventional time and have "hyper moments". Hypertime abstraction has a physical manifestation called Branefold Interior, a space beyond space and a time between time. It contains infinite timelines branching off the Universe but quickly returning without creating a new universe. It is half of the two-side abstraction representing all space and time in Existence called "Divine Continuum". It was created by the World Forger long ago.

 

[HakutoRei000]

Sorry guys just want to ask After this is approved, where will Lucifer scale?

 

[Elizio33]

Sorry guys just want to ask After this is approved, where will Lucifer scale?

Lucifer would scale to the DC/Vertigo Cosmology. Refers to this thread for further information.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Lucifer would scale to the DC/Vertigo Cosmology. Refers to this thread for further information.

The “thread” seems to be a link to Justice League #22 about a gigantic bird pinning Perpetua.

 

[Xearsay]

We will get to see the new supreme being who lies beyond source wall.

It’s not a new character, it’s literally just The Source/Overvoid who’s always been the supreme being.

1-A for having the Gallery of Moments/Garden of Shadows.

The Speed Force is transcended by the Godsphere so you’d be suggesting a 1-A Orrery of worlds.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Speed Force is transcended by the Godsphere so you’d be suggesting a 1-A Orrery of worlds.

No. The Speedforce plays a larger and more prominent role in this series. It's nothing like it was previously established. Especially, a heavily outdated Multiversity Map.

 

[Xearsay]

No. The Speedforce plays a larger and more prominent role in this series. It's nothing like it was previously established. Especially, a heavily outdated Multiversity Map.

Its position in the cosmology is literally the same. The most recent issue highlights the Arc Angels trying to find a way to have Wally transcend the map and go past the Source Wall into the Source. And after Wally goes past the Garden, he then reaches the Force Wall(the edge of the Orrery) and then he continues going upward though the cosmology all the way until he goes past the Source Wall and into the Source. Also the Multiversity map was literally shown in the last issue of the Flash series so saying the map is outdated doesn’t even make sense. So if the Garden is 1-A that means the Orrery is also 1-A, with the higher layers being beyond that.

 

[Elizio33]

One question. We have Grant Morrison's description of Plane Time and Cube Time for Hypertime, is this still viable to use or does it seem too outdated? The current descriptions of Hypertime are:

A web of timestreams outside the Multiverse and, by extension, outside conventional time and have "hyper moments". Hypertime abstraction has a physical manifestation called Branefold Interior, a space beyond space and a time between time. It contains infinite timelines branching off the Universe but quickly returning without creating a new universe. It is half of the two-side abstraction representing all space and time in Existence called "Divine Continuum". It was created by the World Forger long ago.

Anyway. What should we do with Morrison's description of Hypertime (Plane and Cube Time) ?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Its position in the cosmology is literally the same. The most recent issue highlights the Arc Angels trying to find a way to have Wally transcend the map and go past the Source Wall into the Source. And after Wally goes past the Garden, he then reaches the Force Wall(the edge of the Orrery) and then he continues going upward though the cosmology all the way until he goes past the Source Wall and into the Source. Also the Multiversity map was literally shown in the last issue of the Flash series so saying the map is outdated doesn’t even make sense. So if the Garden is 1-A that means the Orrery is also 1-A, with the higher layers being beyond that.

The Multiversity Map is heavily outdated due to the fact that it doesn't show anything that's been added. Those “holograms” or “projections” are up to standard with the stories being told, though their interdict detail is left for the visual aspect. The old map from Multiversity: Guidebook is used as the standard, yet it doesn't have much on the newer series, and those newer stories using it would be more of an homage to how vital it is, not it being cosmologically pinpoint accurate.

As for the Speedforce location. The comic doesn't seem to mention anything you said, nor does the Speedforce have an actual direct location. It is a motion of energy that can traverse the Multiverse, and in canon also predates the Multiverse. So if you have a specific scan of:

he then reaches the Force Wall(the edge of the Orrery) and then he continues going upward though the cosmology all the way until he goes past the Source Wall and into the Source.

Then please show it.

 

[Elizio33]

It’s not a new character, it’s literally just The Source/Overvoid who’s always been the supreme being.


The Speed Force is transcended by the Godsphere so you’d be suggesting a 1-A Orrery of worlds.

The Speed Force was once transcended by the Sphere of the Gods, but that is no longer the case with the new Flash series which depicts the Speed Force extending beyond the Source Wall, to "The Infinite"/Greater Omniverse.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Anyway. What should we do with Morrison's description of Hypertime (Plane and Cube Time) ?

I think it should all be part of Hypertime. The first two scales to the Orrery. The last one can be left ambiguous. However, I believe it just caps at space-time, scaling to 4D.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This thread is five pages long and we've pretty much come to a conclusion on most of the Cosmology. I feel anything else especially minor minute details should be left for other future CRTs given this one is to tackle the larger holistic canon, not small intricate details.

So, I just a voting consensus should start.

 

[Elizio33]

I think it should all be part of Hypertime. The first two scales to the Orrery. The last one can be left ambiguous. However, I believe it just caps at space-time, scaling to 4D.

Time line (Space a) is a representation of Universe-Zero's timeline stretching from the beginning to the end. Plane Time (Space b) is where all timelines are converging and separating.

Cube Time is where things beyond all understanding live and see the DC's Time Line as flat (almost like a comic book that they can read forwards and backwards), which Morrison has called our world in interviews.

Since our world is represented by Earth-33 (or Earth Prime) which is part of the Orrery of Worlds, i think it would be best to remove this description from the Crisis Cosmology and focus on the more recent description of Hypertime.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Time line (Space a) is a representation of Universe-Zero's timeline stretching from the beginning to the end. Plane Time (Space b) is where all timelines are converging and separating.

Cube Time is where things beyond all understanding live and see the DC's Time Line as flat (almost like a comic book that they can read forwards and backwards), which Morrison has called our world in interviews.

Since our world is represented by Earth-33 (or Earth Prime) which is part of the Orrery of Worlds, i think it would be best to remove this description from the Crisis Cosmology and focus on the more recent description of Hypertime.

Yes, like said I don't think it goes past the Orrery or even each individual Earth. Plus, even if it wasn't Morrison's intention, his works don't have that much meaning if they’re outdated.

Anyways,

This thread is five pages long and we've pretty much come to a conclusion on most of the Cosmology. I feel anything else especially minor minute details should be left for other future CRTs given this one is to tackle the larger holistic canon, not small intricate details.

So, I just a voting consensus should start.

I think tallying up votes is good here. The golden rule of three mods?

 

[Swanyee9t76]

I think I'm late. I personally think DCU cosmo should be high 1a.

Crisis Cosmology​

Dimensionality of the Orrery:

It has been repeatedly shown that the DC Multiverse is not limited to five dimensions, but actually has eleven dimensions based on M-Theory and Brane Cosmology (ten dimensions plus one temporal). The 2016's Hellblazer story suggested infinite planes and possibilities, including the Elemental Realms, which are serviced by eleven-dimensional invisible membranes of space and time. This would upgrade the Bleed and the Orrery of Worlds to High 1-C to be the "Bulk" containing those dimensions, and the Orrery of Worlds for containing the Bleed.

​

A single universe inside Orrery is 11-dimensional reality, and due to nature of M-theory Grant Morrison published this during seven soldiers event. This would be High 1-c but in the same comic, There are kind of entities known as seven men, Which exist beyond the whole universe. Zatanna breaks 4th wall to access their realm. Solidly, this can be qualify as 1a since, she is hearing the voices from somewhere. In some ways it is similar to the 'I can see you' moment in Morrison's Animal Man #19 where Buddy sees us reading him. Then, Zatanna tumbles through the panel of Slaughter Swamp and into some sort of sub-basement of reality, within the machinery of the story. Solidly, this can be qualify as 1a due to 4th wall breaking.

Orrery would be 1a.

The God's sphere should be one layer deeper, as it represents the deepest level of the Platonic hierarchy, which is the Absolute or Ultimate.

5th dimension and 5th dimensional entities would be 1 layer into 1a too. As they represent as ink and pen of the Ultra comic. The whole ultra comic is made up with Thoughts since Earth-33 which mapped in Ultra comic represent as Fictive Membrane. Gentry were drawn inside the Ultra comic to corrupt and destroy dreaming of Ultra/Ultra comic. Things like fictive membrane which support Ultra to edit the story doesn't work on Evil batwing due to 5th dimensional nature. Note : Comic books that exist in the universes are to corrupt the universes.
Not at all, anyone who read corrupted comic book got corrupt and become another comic book. Like, Allen Adam getting view as a fiction, while he was reading Ultra comic. Earth-42 JL getting view as a fiction, after they read Multiversity Guidebook.

Limbo, Monitor sphere, Hypertime and Source wall should be 1a too.

6th dimension also should be 1a due to Highest plane of existence in known Multiverse and Beyond the 5th dimension.

Inside the Omniverse there are infinite multiverses created by the hands, the multiverses at least have 6th dimensions according to Guidebook. Theoretically, there must be more higher planes and lesser Hands like Perpetua represent as 6d. So, I think only 6d hands can create 6d multiverse and according to Metron, there's an cosmic ladder of hierarchy in the Omniverse, which also included entities like Perpetua. In this case, I personally think Hierarchy of cosmic ladder decide greater entities since Chronicler a functionary of the Greater Omniverse exist above Perpetua and below to the Source. Overall: Omniverse would be 1a.
The Source, which is the highest entity in the cosmic hierarchy ( According to metron ), transcends the rest of the cosmic ladder, including powerful entities like the Chronicler who are omniversal functions. The Light of Creation and the Great Darkness are in a stalemate, They should be High 1a

God/non-dual void would be tier 0. Since Non-dual void represent as Omni-awareness and sublime to Supervoids which exist within Great Darkness and The Light and a point where unspace and untime where one may silently observe... as God breathes in... and God breathes out. Exhaling his quintessence of perfection.

Note : Overvoid = Light = Presence = Light of creation, because Source was directly meant to be Light of Creation. Source and the Presence are the same entity which is the source of great energies and Overvoid and Source are the same. In the case of Non-dual Omni-awareness void, People will argue that " That Void is Overvoid and Overvoid is the Light in current run " but Morrison never wrote a single thing about Overvoid while writing about Green Lantern comic and claiming like " Presence is the supreme entity and beyond the Light " are like head-canons since there's solid statement that Presence is Source which is the source of great energies. Conclusion of that case, Light of creation would be aspect of God/Non-dual Void.

 

[Antvasima]

Do we need a summary post with everything that our staff currently need to evaluate here, Elizio33?

 

[Elizio33]

Do we need a summary post with everything that our staff currently need to evaluate here, Elizio33?

Nope. Everything needed is in the OP.

 

[Antvasima]

Do we need a summary post with everything that our staff currently need to evaluate here, Elizio33?

Nope. Everything needed is in the OP.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Catzlaflame @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Maverick_Zero_X @LordTracer

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think I'm late. I personally think DCU cosmo should be high 1a.

A single universe inside Orrery is 11-dimensional reality, and due to nature of M-theory Grant Morrison published this during seven soldiers event. This would be High 1-c but in the same comic, There are kind of entities known as seven men, Which exist beyond the whole universe. Zatanna breaks 4th wall to access their realm. Solidly, this can be qualify as 1a since, she is hearing the voices from somewhere. In some ways it is similar to the 'I can see you' moment in Morrison's Animal Man #19 where Buddy sees us reading him. Then, Zatanna tumbles through the panel of Slaughter Swamp and into some sort of sub-basement of reality, within the machinery of the story. Solidly, this can be qualify as 1a due to 4th wall breaking.

Orrery would be 1a.

The God's sphere should be one layer deeper, as it represents the deepest level of the Platonic hierarchy, which is the Absolute or Ultimate.

5th dimension and 5th dimensional entities would be 1 layer into 1a too. As they represent as ink and pen of the Ultra comic. The whole ultra comic is made up with Thoughts since Earth-33 which mapped in Ultra comic represent as Fictive Membrane. Gentry were drawn inside the Ultra comic to corrupt and destroy dreaming of Ultra/Ultra comic. Things like fictive membrane which support Ultra to edit the story doesn't work on Evil batwing due to 5th dimensional nature. Note : Comic books that exist in the universes are to corrupt the universes.
Not at all, anyone who read corrupted comic book got corrupt and become another comic book. Like, Allen Adam getting view as a fiction, while he was reading Ultra comic. Earth-42 JL getting view as a fiction, after they read Multiversity Guidebook.

Limbo, Monitor sphere, Hypertime and Source wall should be 1a too.

6th dimension also should be 1a due to Highest plane of existence in known Multiverse and Beyond the 5th dimension.

Inside the Omniverse there are infinite multiverses created by the hands, the multiverses at least have 6th dimensions according to Guidebook. Theoretically, there must be more higher planes and lesser Hands like Perpetua represent as 6d. So, I think only 6d hands can create 6d multiverse and according to Metron, there's an cosmic ladder of hierarchy in the Omniverse, which also included entities like Perpetua. In this case, I personally think Hierarchy of cosmic ladder decide greater entities since Chronicler a functionary of the Greater Omniverse exist above Perpetua and below to the Source. Overall: Omniverse would be 1a.
The Source, which is the highest entity in the cosmic hierarchy ( According to metron ), transcends the rest of the cosmic ladder, including powerful entities like the Chronicler who are omniversal functions. The Light of Creation and the Great Darkness are in a stalemate, They should be High 1a

God/non-dual void would be tier 0. Since Non-dual void represent as Omni-awareness and sublime to Supervoids which exist within Great Darkness and The Light and a point where unspace and untime where one may silently observe... as God breathes in... and God breathes out. Exhaling his quintessence of perfection.

Note : Overvoid = Light = Presence = Light of creation, because Source was directly meant to be Light of Creation. Source and the Presence are the same entity which is the source of great energies and Overvoid and Source are the same. In the case of Non-dual Omni-awareness void, People will argue that " That Void is Overvoid and Overvoid is the Light in current run " but Morrison never wrote a single thing about Overvoid while writing about Green Lantern comic and claiming like " Presence is the supreme entity and beyond the Light " are like head-canons since there's solid statement that Presence is Source which is the source of great energies. Conclusion of that case, Light of creation would be aspect of God/Non-dual Void.

None of that is 1-A much less High 1-A

 

[Swanyee9t76]

None of that is 1-A much less High 1-A

elaborate?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think I'm late. I personally think DCU cosmo should be high 1a.

A single universe inside Orrery is 11-dimensional reality, and due to nature of M-theory Grant Morrison published this during seven soldiers event. This would be High 1-c but in the same comic, There are kind of entities known as seven men, Which exist beyond the whole universe. Zatanna breaks 4th wall to access their realm. Solidly, this can be qualify as 1a since, she is hearing the voices from somewhere. In some ways it is similar to the 'I can see you' moment in Morrison's Animal Man #19 where Buddy sees us reading him. Then, Zatanna tumbles through the panel of Slaughter Swamp and into some sort of sub-basement of reality, within the machinery of the story. Solidly, this can be qualify as 1a due to 4th wall breaking.

Wall-breaking isn't 1-A. If Zatanna is a lesser being she, herself, can't be accessing anything that's qualitatively superior to her in nature to her.

Orrery would be 1a.

The God's sphere should be one layer deeper, as it represents the deepest level of the Platonic hierarchy, which is the Absolute or Ultimate.

5th dimension and 5th dimensional entities would be 1 layer into 1a too. As they represent as ink and pen of the Ultra comic. The whole ultra comic is made up with Thoughts since Earth-33 which mapped in Ultra comic represent as Fictive Membrane. Gentry were drawn inside the Ultra comic to corrupt and destroy dreaming of Ultra/Ultra comic. Things like fictive membrane which support Ultra to edit the story doesn't work on Evil batwing due to 5th dimensional nature. Note : Comic books that exist in the universes are to corrupt the universes.
Not at all, anyone who read corrupted comic book got corrupt and become another comic book. Like, Allen Adam getting view as a fiction, while he was reading Ultra comic. Earth-42 JL getting view as a fiction, after they read Multiversity Guidebook.

In this FAQ. Earth-33 or any Earth in DC are examples of what R>F is not.

Limbo, Monitor sphere, Hypertime and Source wall should be 1a too.

6th dimension also should be 1a due to Highest plane of existence in known Multiverse and Beyond the 5th dimension.

Inside the Omniverse there are infinite multiverses created by the hands, the multiverses at least have 6th dimensions according to Guidebook. Theoretically, there must be more higher planes and lesser Hands like Perpetua represent as 6d. So, I think only 6d hands can create 6d multiverse and according to Metron, there's an cosmic ladder of hierarchy in the Omniverse, which also included entities like Perpetua. In this case, I personally think Hierarchy of cosmic ladder decide greater entities since Chronicler a functionary of the Greater Omniverse exist above Perpetua and below to the Source. Overall: Omniverse would be 1a.
The Source, which is the highest entity in the cosmic hierarchy ( According to metron ), transcends the rest of the cosmic ladder, including powerful entities like the Chronicler who are omniversal functions. The Light of Creation and the Great Darkness are in a stalemate, They should be High 1a

Where is the 1-A here? Much less, High 1-A.

God/non-dual void would be tier 0. Since Non-dual void represent as Omni-awareness and sublime to Supervoids which exist within Great Darkness and The Light and a point where unspace and untime where one may silently observe... as God breathes in... and God breathes out. Exhaling his quintessence of perfection.

This is 0 due non-dual but we’re not accepting 0. Even then 0 is cosmogically independent and no one to scale to it either way. Except the Presence, but seems like no one likes the idea of 0.

Note : Overvoid = Light = Presence = Light of creation, because Source was directly meant to be Light of Creation. Source and the Presence are the same entity which is the source of great energies and Overvoid and Source are the same. In the case of Non-dual Omni-awareness void, People will argue that " That Void is Overvoid and Overvoid is the Light in current run " but Morrison never wrote a single thing about Overvoid while writing about Green Lantern comic and claiming like " Presence is the supreme entity and beyond the Light " are like head-canons since there's solid statement that Presence is Source which is the source of great energies. Conclusion of that case, Light of creation would be aspect of God/Non-dual Void.

Yeah, the Light is an aspect of God, also known as the Presence.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Wall-breaking isn't 1-A. If Zatanna is a lesser being she, herself, can't be accessing anything that's qualitatively superior to her in nature to her.

In this FAQ. Earth-33 or any Earth in DC are examples of what R>F is not.

Where is the 1-A here? Much less, High 1-A.

This is 0 due non-dual but we’re not accepting 0. Even then 0 is cosmogically independent and no one to scale to it either way. Except the Presence, but seems like no one likes the idea of 0.

Yeah, the Light is an aspect of God, also known as the Presence.

Well but 4th wall breaking can be demonstrate as Reality-fictional transcendence ( which can be qualify as 1a ) according to this page. I personally don't think that's Qualitatively Superiority since lower reality are nothing more than machinery reality that work with their own properties. When Zatanna fully accessed into that reality, she was able to access anything from the lower reality.

I'm not talking about Earth 33 has R>F to other universes. I'm talking about 5d entities like Gentry have R>F to ultra comics and earth 33, after corrupting more universes in orrery, they were able to view those earths as fiction like I said in previous comment.

Oh 5th dimensional entities can't comprehend the existence of 6th dimension and theoretically and conceptually, there might more higher planes according to DC book and Metron's statement which would be qualify as multi-layers into 1a and Source sitting above rest of Hierarchy, which would be High 1a as solidly.

I think omni-awareness statement could be work since, A void with consciousness that encompassing the rest of cosmology ( Since it contains Light and Darkness ) and IDK if this tier 0 case is going to decide with votes.

Presence = Light of creation < ( Light of creation is an aspect of ) God. Since there's a solid statement that Presence is the source of great energies that hands used to create multiverses and the Source goes the same.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well but 4th wall breaking can be demonstrate as Reality-fictional transcendence ( which can be qualify as 1a ) according to this page. I personally don't think that's Qualitatively Superiority since lower reality are nothing more than machinery reality that work with their own properties. When Zatanna fully accessed into that reality, she was able to access anything from the lower reality.

That page hasn't been updated and that sort of R>F isn't the same as the new one.

I'm not talking about Earth 33 has R>F to other multiverses. I'm talking about 5d entities like Gentry have R>F to ultra comics and earth 33, after corrupting more universes in orrery, they were able to view those earths as fiction like I said in previous comment.

They came from Earth-33 as their generic pulp fiction of evil entities. That's not 1-A given they literally interacted with lower beings and are affected by them as well.

Oh 5th dimensional entities can't comprehend the existence of 6th dimension and theoretically and conceptually, there might more higher planes according to DC book and Metron's statement which would be qualify as multi-layers into 1a and Source sitting above rest of Hierarchy, which would be High 1a as solidly.

That's not 1-A, if the previous said “layer” isn't 1-A.

I think omni-awareness statement could be work since, A void with consciousness that encompassing the rest of cosmology ( Since it contains Light and Darkness ) and IDK if this tier 0 case is going to decide with votes.

The information in JLI precedes Green Lantern since GL publication was near Death Metal.

Presence = Light of creation < ( Light of creation is aspect ) God. Since there's a solid statement that Presence is the source of great energies that hands used to create multiverses.

An aspect of God/Presence called the Voice literally brought Light.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

That page hasn't been updated and that sort of R>F isn't the same as the new one.

I think this would be work then,

Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.

as time traitors see the whole universe as machinery properties, and Zatanna was able to access everything in the universe by defeating Zor. Which can be qualify as Ontological quality.

They came from Earth-33 as their generic pulp fiction of evil entities. That's not 1-A given they literally interacted with lower beings and are affected by them as well.

Gentry are not came from earth-33, The earth 33 itself was mapped inside the Ultra comic. They came from dark multiverse or somewhere beyond the source wall after the cycle of monitors fall.

That's not 1-A, if the previous said “layer” isn't 1-A

yea but no

The information in JLI precedes Green Lantern since GL publication was near Death Metal.

JLI only mentioned about origin of Overvoid/Source/Presence didn't even mentioned a single word about Non-dual primoradial Void. Like I said before GL comic didn't mentioned that Non-dual void refers to Overvoid/Source/Presence and another origin of DC cosmo which is similar to JLI origin goes the same. There was a void before the great energies born and non-dual void contains Light and Dark at same time since it's omni-awareness.

An aspect of God/Presence called the word literally brought Light

Presence ≠ God but Presence = Light of creation. If u really count Presence as God, Overvoid and Source will be God too.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think this would be work then,

No. I don’t think so.

as time traitors see the whole universe as machinery properties, and Zatanna was able to access everything in the universe by defeating Zor. Which can be qualify as Ontological quality.

That's hardly an ontological quality.

Gentry are not came from earth-33, The earth 33 itself was mapped inside the Ultra comic. They came from dark multiverse or somewhere beyond the source wall after the cycle of monitors fall.

That's not what the scan said. Given the only thing that exists outside that was the Monitor-Mind and it alone.

JLI only mentioned about origin of Overvoid/Source/Presence didn't even mentioned a single word about Non-dual primoradial Void. Like I said before GL comic didn't mentioned that Non-dual void refers to Overvoid/Source/Presence and another origin of DC cosmo which is similar to JLI origin goes the same. There was a void before the great energies born and non-dual void contains Light and Dark at same time since it's omni-awareness.

Doesn't even mention the Presence either. Void was an indirect notion to what the Great Darkness was. Plus, non-dual would imply outside or just not dual. Being the “light” is a concept and a part of a dichotomy thus that's dual.

Presence ≠ God but Presence = Light of creation. If u really count Presence as God, Overvoid and Source will be God too.

No, it wouldn't. The Cosmology already accepted the Presence as God/Creator. You can try to challenge that notion in a separate CRT.

 

[Xearsay]

The Multiversity Map is heavily outdated due to the fact that it doesn't show anything that's been added.

The map doesn’t even specifically show every realm from the past either and that’s because it’s not trying to do that. Making a map that can artistically present and display a precise location for every single realm that’s ever appeared in DC would be practically impossible since there’s literally hundreds of them and you’d be running into so much redundancy and issues with visual clarity that it wouldn’t even be worth the time. For that reason the map is very generalized within its layering. The layering of spheres works as categories that can be generalized to any realm related to it. For example, Skylands doesn’t just contain mount Olympus but multiple other pantheons such as DC’s Asgard and the Egyptian pantheon. So despite Olympus and Asgard being two separate realms from one another, they’re still generalized under one circle within the Godsphere. And this same logic can apply for practically the entire map. Any realm that’s attached to the same level the Bleed is on. Any realm attached to the Speed Force would be on the same level the Speed Force is on. Etc.

The comic doesn't seem to mention anything you said, nor does the Speedforce have an actual direct location.

I’m not saying it has a direct location but that it operates on a set level of existence. And that level is obviously within the Speed Force wall since that’s limit of motion and speed. The Flash series also acknowledges this speed force wall in the latest issue.

The Speed Force was once transcended by the Sphere of the Gods, but that is no longer the case with the new Flash series which depicts the Speed Force extending beyond the Source Wall, to "The Infinite"/Greater Omniverse.

This quite literally cannot be true as the Speed Force is said verbatim to be emanated from beyond the Source Wall in this series. Your interpretation is also entirety contradictory to the narrative because as I’ve already stated, the Arc Angels are trying to send Wally beyond the Source Wall and beyond creation. If the Garden they greeted him in was already beyond the Source Wall the Arc Angels wouldn’t need to send him beyond the Source Wall because according to your interpretation, he’d already be there. So the Garden realm that you’re saying is 1-A quite literally cannot be beyond the Source Wall, it has to be within the Multiverse.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The map doesn’t even specifically show every realm from the past either and that’s because it’s not trying to do that. Making a map that can artistically present and display a precise location for every single realm that’s ever appeared in DC would be practically impossible since there’s literally hundreds of them and you’d be running into so much redundancy and issues with visual clarity that it wouldn’t even be worth the time. For that reason the map is very generalized within its layering. The layering of spheres works as categories that can be generalized to any realm related to it. For example, Skylands doesn’t just contain mount Olympus but multiple other pantheons such as DC’s Asgard and the Egyptian pantheon. So despite Olympus and Asgard being two separate realms from one another, they’re still generalized under one circle within the Godsphere. And this same logic can apply for practically the entire map. Any realm that’s attached to the same level the Bleed is on. Any realm attached to the Speed Force would be on the same level the Speed Force is on. Etc.

Not saying it has to be practical enough to include everything but it certainly needs an update.

I’m not saying it has a direct location but that it operates on a set level of existence. And that level is obviously within the Speed Force wall since that’s limit of motion and speed. The Flash series also acknowledges this speed force wall in the latest issue.

Not really? Time moves a lot slower in the Gallery or more precisely concepts that dwell deeper than time. Time isn't a constant there so it being bound to the Orrery would be contradictory.

This quite literally cannot be true as the Speed Force is said verbatim to be emanated from beyond the Source Wall in this series. Your interpretation is also entirety contradictory to the narrative because as I’ve already stated, the Arc Angels are trying to send Wally beyond the Source Wall and beyond creation. If the Garden they greeted him in was already beyond the Source Wall the Arc Angels wouldn’t need to send him beyond the Source Wall because according to your interpretation, he’d already be there. So the Garden realm that you’re saying is 1-A quite literally cannot be beyond the Source Wall, it has to be within the Multiverse.

Given that it was emanated from beyond the Source Wall and given what we know of it, unless somehow it was bounded to the Multiverse then the point remains that it isn't bound to Creation.

 

[Elizio33]

Another piece of evidence supporting 1-A for The Source.

All of the Universe is a dream, a long reverie dreamed by The Source since the beginning of time and would undoubtedly continue to do so long after the end.

 

[Elizio33]

@Deagonx @DarkDragonMedeus @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Ultima_Reality are you agree with the OP ?

 

[Swanyee9t76]

No. I don’t think so.

Well how?

That's hardly an ontological quality.

once again, Zatanna was able to access entire Universe after defeating Zor not at all, Universe is nothing more than just a machinery properties.

That's not what the scan said. Given the only thing that exists outside that was the Monitor-Mind and it alone.

It directly said " Things from outside came to occupy ", ur saying like there are multiple Monitor-mind beyond the Source wall. The Gentry was said to be “The Pitless Ones from Behind the Invisible Rainbow…Opposite of Everything Natural” and they are a threat to “All of Creation” and they are threat to rest of multiverse/rainbow spectrum. Also, there's a statement that said Evil batwing is 5-dimensional entity.

Doesn't even mention the Presence either. Void was an indirect notion to what the Great Darkness was. Plus, non-dual would imply outside or just not dual. Being the “light” is a concept and a part of a dichotomy thus that's dual.

So, does Overvoid? The text suggests that the void described in Grant Morrison's Green Lantern comics is a non-dual, all-encompassing cosmic entity that includes both light and darkness, rather than just a void separate from the multiverse. " Being Light " or similar claim doesn't refute my evidences since, Light was used to refer as Overvoid/Source/Presence and you don't have any evidences that void is referring to Overvoid/Source/Presence.

No, it wouldn't. The Cosmology already accepted the Presence as God/Creator. You can try tonchaklenge that notion in a separate CRT.

I'm not going to make kind of CRT about Presence.