Fixing some mess of DC profiles

[Hecky2222]

Noone bothered to fix profiles even after 4 months, mind you 4 months before it was accepted merge and Tier 0 Proposal yet noone even bothered to touch outdated pages. What a lazy supporters

So premise of this thread should be pretty straightforward, since not so major changes, whatsover.

The Great Outdated One
Page is pretty much outdated. Justifications worked in past, since we accepted back then GD Predates Overvoid and Source. But currently we accepted GD as opposing force to Source(Downgrading it from H1A+), meaning this ability justifications won't work and they should go:

Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 2; Predates Monitor-Mind the Overvoid which is described as a non-dual omni-awareness, and an "ultimate concept" that contains within it multiple dualities such as life and anti-life, good and evil, in and out, and black and white.)

Instead we would change it to

Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 1; Comparable to Source which is described as an "ultimate concept" that contains within it multiple dualities such as "life and anti-life, good and evil, up and down, in and out, black and white, all at once")

So essentially GD is opposing force to Source and comparable to it, meaning PP2 via predating it doesn't work

Now let's go to NEP part

Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2, Aspects 1, 2, 3 & 5; The Great Darkness is the primordial darkness that predates Creation and completely exists outside the Light of Creation, which is totally irrelevant in its darkness. Where in the beginning there was only the dark nothingness before Creation)

Again it comes from predation of Overvoid, which was accepted as NEP 2, so justification doesn't hold. Moreover:

Abstract Existence (Type 1; Is referred to as Darkness itself, as opposed to mere manifestations)

You can't have AE and NEP at same time. You have to pick one. If NEP would stay it would be simply

Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, All Aspects; The Great Darkness is the primordial darkness that completely exists outside the Light of Creation, which is totally irrelevant in its darkness. Where in the beginning there was only the dark nothingness before Creation)

Now you can ask: Hecker where the **** you got informational nonexistence? Which is fair question. In this thread we accepted Source has Information Type 2. Since GD NEP supposedly comes from lacking everything Creation has(In context it is Source) it would be logical to assume it lacks information also.

By that it should be fair to add this to The Source Page:

Abstract Existence (Type 1; {Information: Type 2, Concept: Type 1} The Source is untainted concepts and pure information that hold all the many meanings of everything at once)
(Link seems to be missing but @KirbyFan03 original argument maker can replace it)

Now idk if we can add to Source Information Manipulation via this reason or not cuz it is existence rather than manipulation itself? Or Source can manipulate own nature?. If somehow we can. GD would have Info 2 also since it has CM1 via similar reasoning. It is up to discussion

And lastly Omniscience. GD Page Intelligence part tells us it is Nigh Omniscience. What is even reasoning for Omniscience? This should go also

Other stuff

Resistance to:

• Existence Erasure (Survived Monitor-Mind The Overvoid)

Not to mention nothing tells us how CAS resists EE here, it straight up anti feat for T0. So it should go as well

And most important thing, why this page still remains?
1. We already merged Vertigo and Other Cosmologies. Meaning it can't stay High 1-A+
2. We accepted Overvoid and Void are same thing. So why this profile still remains as seperate? When @Elizio33 will merge them?

So TLDR
1. Axing PP2, NEP 2, AE1, Omniscience from GD and adding Informational Nonexistence as well
2. Addition accepted Informational and Conceptual Existence to Source and potentially discussing Info Manipulation for both GD and Source as well
3. Axing EE from Thought Robot
4. Questioning why The Void profile remains.

So ye

Agree: KirbyFan03, Elizio33, Antvasima, Re5yh, Itsmeat ActuallySpaceMan42 RaikiKurohane99
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[KirbyFan03]

Thread seems solid. I agree with the changes! Also gadayum is the TGD profile outdated XD

 

[Hecky2222]

Thread seems solid. I agree with the changes! Also gadayum is the TGD profile outdated XD

I remember in cord you told me about potentiality about NEP 2, also your link about information type 2 source seems broken. Can you help me with that?

 

[KirbyFan03]

I remember in cord you told me about potentiality about NEP 2, also your link about information type 2 source seems broken. Can you help me with that?

I'll post it in cord DMs

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234

What do you think about this?

 

[Elizio33]

I agree with the proposal. Regarding the merging of the Void and the Overvoid, my last attempt failed, but this remains possible. However, in this case, the Void would be an aspect of the Overvoid, because the Void is often understood as an aspect or mind of God, and the Overvoid/Source/Presence is God. If we merge the profiles, a new key must be added to The Overvoid profiles.

 

[Hecky2222]

I agree with the proposal. Regarding the merging of the Void and the Overvoid, my last attempt failed, but this remains possible. However, in this case, the Void would be an aspect of the Overvoid, because the Void is often understood as an aspect or mind of God, and the Overvoid/Source/Presence is God. If we merge the profiles, a new key must be added to The Overvoid profiles.

So I suppose Void will be downgraded to H1A if they are not same but rather aspect

 

[Elizio33]

So I suppose Void will be downgraded to H1A if they are not same but rather aspect

Yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Elizio's sense of judgement here, so I also agree.

 

[Re5yh]

Looks Good, I agree

 

[ItsMeat]

Well done, agreed

 

[KirbyFan03]

Hmmm

On second thought I think TGD should have Type 2 NEP

I'll give my args jn. Irl kicking my arse

 

[Xdsagecat]

Noone bothered to fix profiles even after 4 months, mind you 4 months before it was accepted merge and Tier 0 Proposal yet noone even bothered to touch outdated pages. What a lazy supporters

So premise of this thread should be pretty straightforward, since not so major changes, whatsover.

The Great Outdated One
Page is pretty much outdated. Justifications worked in past, since we accepted back then GD Predates Overvoid and Source. But currently we accepted GD as opposing force to Source(Downgrading it from H1A+), meaning this ability justifications won't work and they should go:



Instead we would change it to



So essentially GD is opposing force to Source and comparable to it, meaning PP2 via predating it doesn't work

Now let's go to NEP part



Again it comes from predation of Overvoid, which was accepted as NEP 2, so justification doesn't hold. Moreover:



You can't have AE and NEP at same time. You have to pick one. If NEP would stay it would be simply



Now you can ask: Hecker where the **** you got informational nonexistence? Which is fair question. In this thread we accepted Source has Information Type 2. Since GD NEP supposedly comes from lacking everything Creation has(In context it is Source) it would be logical to assume it lacks information also.

By that it should be fair to add this to The Source Page:


Now idk if we can add to Source Information Manipulation via this reason or not cuz it is existence rather than manipulation itself? Or Source can manipulate own nature?. If somehow we can. GD would have Info 2 also since it has CM1 via similar reasoning. It is up to discussion

And lastly Omniscience. GD Page Intelligence part tells us it is Nigh Omniscience. What is even reasoning for Omniscience? This should go also

Other stuff

Resistance to:



Not to mention nothing tells us how CAS resists EE here, it straight up anti feat for T0. So it should go as well

And most important thing, why this page still remains?
1. We already merged Vertigo and Other Cosmologies. Meaning it can't stay High 1-A+
2. We accepted Overvoid and Void are same thing. So why this profile still remains as seperate? When @Elizio33 will merge them?

So TLDR
1. Axing PP2, NEP 2, AE1, Omniscience from GD and adding Informational Nonexistence as well
2. Addition accepted Informational and Conceptual Existence to Source and potentially discussing Info Manipulation for both GD and Source as well
3. Axing EE from Thought Robot
4. Questioning why The Void profile remains.

So ye

Agree: KirbyFan03, Elizio33, Antvasima
Disagree:
Neutral:

For the love of God can someone create a visual graphic of the Hierarchical order of the cosmology? Everyone seems to predate yet also come after each other, when trying to read the now apparent outdated profiles previously.

Should clarify I'm not trying to hate nor blame anyone it's just me ranting lol

 

[Hecky2222]

For the love of God can someone create a visual graphic of the Hierarchical order of the cosmology? Everyone seems to predate yet also come after each other, when trying to read the now apparent outdated profiles previously.

Supporters already working on rework of current cosmology. So probably when they finish I can give you some visualization.

But for now we have(Outdated one but still) Presence/Overvoid/Source True Form(Tier 0) > Voice(High 1-A+ Type 2) > Pralaya(Type 1) > Void(High 1-A Baseline 2 Layers)/Yahweh > Source/The Great Darkness and almost everything(High 1-A) this is current accepted but outdated one

 

[Xdsagecat]

Supporters already working on rework of current cosmology. So probably when they finish I can give you some visualization.

But for now we have(Outdated one but still) Presence/Overvoid/Source True Form(Tier 0) > Voice(High 1-A+ Type 2) > Pralaya(Type 1) > Void(High 1-A Baseline 2 Layers)/Yahweh > Source/The Great Darkness and almost everything(High 1-A) this is current accepted but outdated one

Thanks

 

[Hecky2222]

Bump

 

[KirbyFan03]

I feel that the great darkness is more that mere material non-existence

For starters New Gods like Infinity Man Exist in places where reality and unreality lose meaning. The Waiternum lies between being and unbeing Being bound by the great darkness on all sides Which the Darkness can invade The Darkness saps away at all life, hope and thoughts

Given The New Gods have non duality with their own native realm + waiternum (yes I found more stuff for them that's not on our New Gods page)

The Great Darkness is can enter and disrupted the waiternum which imo does qualify for NEP2 meaning it's at least on the Waiternums level

 

[KirbyFan03]

I feel that the great darkness is more that mere material non-existence

For starters New Gods like Infinity Man Exist in places where reality and unreality lose meaning. The Waiternum lies between being and unbeing Being bound by the great darkness on all sides Which the Darkness can invade The Darkness saps away at all life, hope and thoughts

Given The New Gods have non duality with their own native realm + waiternum (yes I found more stuff for them that's not on our New Gods page)

The Great Darkness is can enter and disrupted the waiternum which imo does qualify for NEP2 meaning it's at least on the Waiternums level

I had a coma reading my own stuff lol

 

[KirbyFan03]

I agree with the proposal. Regarding the merging of the Void and the Overvoid, my last attempt failed, but this remains possible. However, in this case, the Void would be an aspect of the Overvoid, because the Void is often understood as an aspect or mind of God, and the Overvoid/Source/Presence is God. If we merge the profiles, a new key must be added to The Overvoid profiles.

Overvoid/Source/Presence = Unknowable

Emanations
Overvoid = The Void
Source = Light of Creation
Presence = The fat man with a mustache

 

[KirbyFan03]

On another note The Source IS pure information and untainted concepts

Beings like black racer who isn't a "god" but is death was made by the Source from floating concepts

New Gods get Info Type 2 via harnessing, touching and molding The Source which is somewhat consistent for New Gods having busted NEP via lightray having a direct feat of chasing the darkness away from racer

 

[KirbyFan03]

@Hecky2222 I'd also like to note that even in Ram Vs New Gods The Great Darkness is stated as being older than The Light of Creation/The Sources emanation

Karok Ator says it's older than The Source that The New Gods draw from (pure information and untainted concepts) as he regenerates after being atomized by The Alpha Force New Gods 2024 #5

 

[KirbyFan03]

prepare to be mind boggled as I saw Light of Creation= PP1. TGD= PP2. Unknowable=PP3 without me knowing any args for the other two being higher yet


But on a more serious note we need to remove The Overvoid stuff entirely and clarify that it's The Light of Creation that The Great Darkness opposes and predates and not the TRUE Source

 

[Elizio33]

Overvoid/Source/Presence = Unknowable

Emanations
Overvoid = The Void
Source = Light of Creation
Presence = The fat man with a mustache

Yes

 

[KirbyFan03]

Yes

Thoughts on my take for NEP2 TGD?

 

[Hecky2222]

Exist in places where reality and unreality lose meaning. The Waiternum lies between being and unbeing Being bound by the great darkness on all sides Which the Darkness can invade The Darkness saps away at all life, hope and thoughts

I can see NEP 2 based on this information. Especially seeing Waiternum directly connected to TGD itself(Since I remember reading this run).

New Gods get Info Type 2 via harnessing, touching and molding The Source which is somewhat consistent for New Gods having busted NEP via lightray having a direct feat of chasing the darkness away from racer

This is not NEP 2, this is NEP interaction which would be NPI(NEP 2). But i want to leave that for another thread in near future.

Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2, All Aspects; The Great Darkness is the primordial darkness that completely exists outside the Light of Creation, which is totally irrelevant in its darkness. Where in the beginning there was only the dark nothingness before Creation, Exists far beyond places where Reality and Unreality lose meaning. The Waiternum lies between being and unbeing , bound on all sides by The Great Darkness, which can invade it and sap away at all life, hope and thought.)

Snip

Snip

Does it make sense to you?

 

[KirbyFan03]

I can see NEP 2 based on this information. Especially seeing Waiternum directly connected to TGD itself(Since I remember reading this run).

This is not NEP 2, this is NEP interaction which would be NPI(NEP 2). But i want to leave that for another thread in near future.







Does it make sense to you?

I had a brain fart for the NEP interaction part XD

But ye New Gods have statements of interacting with The Light of Creation and one of them have a feat of chasing its counterpart away.

 

[Elizio33]

Thoughts on my take for NEP2 TGD?

The Great Darkness does not transcend being and unbeing, nor does Waiturnum. Waiturnum is described as a transitional buffer zone between the two, functioning as a passage state rather than a realm beyond existence or nonexistence.

The Great Darkness is portrayed as a primordial pre-creational state, but it is still defined through its relationship with the Light of Creation, which establishes it as “Total Darkness,” an absence of light and creation. This indicates that it is still subject to definition and relational systems rather than existing outside all ontological frameworks.

 

[Hecky2222]

The Great Darkness does not transcend being and unbeing, nor does Waiturnum. Waiturnum is described as a transitional buffer zone between the two, functioning as a passage state rather than a realm beyond existence or nonexistence.

The Great Darkness is portrayed as a primordial pre-creational state, but it is still defined through its relationship with the Light of Creation, which establishes it as “Total Darkness,” an absence of light and creation. This indicates that it is still subject to definition and relational systems rather than existing outside all ontological frameworks.

I suppose that was bit misunderstanding

Argument was "Transcending lower world(Not Waiturnum) which is between existence and nonexistence" which would grant that realm in question TD1(Existence and Nonexistence) but afaik GD in question is also NEP but transcends by default lower realm GD would be NEP2(since NEP 2 is Nonduality to Existence and Nonexistence and in question should be nonexistent as well)

If Waiturnum arg isn't valid we could simply remove it or keep it as supportive information

 

[Elizio33]

NEP1 would fit better for the Great Darkness

 

[Hecky2222]

NEP1 would fit better for the Great Darkness

Well ye, we don't have proof for that realm in question being which tier(Since GD transcends almost everything in low level by qualitative superiority which would dwarf anything below to nothing anyway) so NEP2 from that justification wouldn't work unless we can prove somehow they are at same level of existence

But I probably misread Waiturnum. Is it tunnel between Source and Darkness which is why it is referred as lying between existence and nonexistence in context?

 

[Elizio33]

Well ye, we don't have proof for that realm in question being which tier(Since GD transcends almost everything in low level by qualitative superiority which would dwarf anything below to nothing anyway) so NEP2 from that justification wouldn't work unless we can prove somehow they are at same level of existence

But I probably misread Waiturnum. Is it tunnel between Source and Darkness which is why it is referred as lying between existence and nonexistence in context?

From my understanding, the Great Darkness surrounds this tunnel, whose endpoint is The Source. The Great Darkness is nothing and the Source (Light) is everything, both define each other. In its purest form, The Source is a state that precedes even the Darkness.

 

[Hecky2222]

From my understanding, the Great Darkness surrounds this tunnel, whose endpoint is The Source. The Great Darkness is nothing and the Source (Light) is everything. In its purest form, The Source is a state that precedes even the Darkness.

Well yeah in this case NEP2 definitely doesn't work.

NEP1 is good enough if so

 

[Hecky2222]

DC threads need three votes right?

I trust Elizio's sense of judgement here, so I also agree.

Ant can you please call another staff

 

[Elizio33]

These are the scans about the tunnel

 

[KirbyFan03]

The Great Darkness does not transcend being and unbeing, nor does Waiturnum. Waiturnum is described as a transitional buffer zone between the two, functioning as a passage state rather than a realm beyond existence or nonexistence.

The Great Darkness is portrayed as a primordial pre-creational state, but it is still defined through its relationship with the Light of Creation, which establishes it as “Total Darkness,” an absence of light and creation. This indicates that it is still subject to definition and relational systems rather than existing outside all ontological frameworks.

Hmmmm.... fair enough

Welp there goes NEP2 TGD!

 

[Hecky2222]

Snip

Bump. we just need one more vote to apply this

 

[Xdsagecat]

Bump. we just need one more vote to apply this

You know, with so many crts requiring just one more vote to apply, they should just reduce the votes needed by one.

 

[Hecky2222]

You know, with so many crts requiring just one more vote to apply, they should just reduce the votes needed by one.

dc is popular verse so it needs three votes

Usually for normal abilities and normal verses two votes are good

 

[Hecky2222]

bump

 

[Wirtzwest]

Supporters already working on rework of current cosmology. So probably when they finish I can give you some visualization.

But for now we have(Outdated one but still) Presence/Overvoid/Source True Form(Tier 0) > Voice(High 1-A+ Type 2) > Pralaya(Type 1) > Void(High 1-A Baseline 2 Layers)/Yahweh > Source/The Great Darkness and almost everything(High 1-A) this is current accepted but outdated one

The void also serves the same role as pralaya and mother night in vertigo.