DC Comics: Tier 4 Revisions

[Joemungousaur]

Superman (Post-Crisis) and other high-tier JL members such as WW, Hal Jordan, MMH etc. should be upgraded to a higher level of 4-B.

Lightray used his remaining energies to create a new giant star by exploding a field of drifting matter - 10.4 KiloFoe (Pending).

Orion fought against an amped Kalibak, with Metron stating that if their full might was unleashed they could lay waste to half of Apokolips - 2.3 MegaFoe (Accepted by KLOL506 and Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan).

And some supportive High 4-C feats:

Superman withstood the electromagnetic shock waves of an explosion which was equivalent to 50 Kepler Supernovas at a point-blank range while severely weakened by red sun radiation - 0.5 Foe (Accepted).

Superman broke kerenthium steel chains. These chains were used to haul stars between galaxies - 0.09 Foe (Pending).

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder, @Zensum, @C2_of_Omegon, @Eficiente, @Qawsedf234, @Sandman31, @SuperAPM, @Firestorm808, @Elizio33, @EmperorRorepme, @The_Impress

Your input would be appreciated here.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Hmm. Correct me if I am wrong. But wasn't the least feat done in a DC- Walmart exclusive series?

 

[Joemungousaur]

Superman: Up in the Sky Vol 1

Superman: Up in the Sky (Volume 1) was a six-issue limited series reprinting original stories written by Tom King for the Walmart-exclusive title Superman Giant (Volume 1). Superman: Up in the Sky #1 Superman: Up in the Sky #2 Superman: Up in the Sky #3 Superman: Up in the Sky #4 Superman: Up in...

dc.fandom.com

Superman: Up in the Sky (Volume 1) was a six-issue limited series reprinting original stories written by Tom King for the Walmart-exclusive title Superman Giant (Volume 1).

Wow, i didn't know that. So can we use this feat?

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes, but more input would be appreciated.

 

[Joemungousaur]

I think so, yes, but more input would be appreciated.

Should i ask everyone you mentioned to comment here?

 

[Antvasima]

Staff members can send notifications in the manner that I just used, so it is probably not necessary.

 

[Joemungousaur]

Okay, thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Antvasima]

@Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hykuu

You can also comment if you wish.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Apokolips was rejected due to its inconsistent size so that's out of the window.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

If Apokolips feat is rejected then how does Lightrays feat scale? Wasn't it performed during Kirby's run? Or do the New Gods scale even later on.

 

[Antvasima]

Apocolips has been portrayed in a very inconsistent manner over several decades, yes.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

No I was asking if New Gods scale from their Pre Crisis self. The Lightray feat was performed in Kirby's run which iirc was before COIE.

 

[Antvasima]

Their avatars were defined as far less powerful post-Crisis than pre-Crisis, and various writers kept messing with their cosmology, so I do not think so, even though I think that Darkseid remembers the first Crisis.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

So, is Lightrays feat usable given that its from Pre Crisis?

 

[Antvasima]

Only for scaling pre-Crisis characters, or so I think.

 

[Joemungousaur]

▪ Apokolips feat is from Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol 1 and the size which i used for Apokolips is from New Gods Vol 4 (Jack Kirby's Fourth World is continuation of New Gods Vol 4). Spino and KLOL506 said that the math is fine so i think we can use this feat.

▪ Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis New God Emanations are the same, because they weren't affected by Crisis (For example, Darkseid has consistent 2-C / 2-B showings in both eras). Pre-Flashpoint Orion scales to Pre-Flashpoint Lightray and Post-Crisis Superman scales to Pre-Flashpoint Orion.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I know Amelia wants to do a larger revision for all sorts of DC Heroes.

 

[Joemungousaur]

I know Amelia wants to do a larger revision for all sorts of DC Heroes.

Wow it's good, but the approval of these feats will be good for her revision too, so I think these feats can be discussed in this thread. Also what do you think about these feats?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am weary of upgrading the characters to any higher of level of 4-B as it is, tbh.

*Amelia's a she.

 

[Joemungousaur]

I am weary of upgrading the characters to any higher of level of 4-B as it is, tbh.

*Amelia's a she.

Okay, thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

▪ Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis New God Emanations are the same, because they weren't affected by Crisis (For example, Darkseid has consistent 2-C / 2-B showings in both eras). Pre-Flashpoint Orion scales to Pre-Flashpoint Lightray and Post-Crisis Superman scales to Pre-Flashpoint Orion.

Most portrayals of Darkseid avatars portray them as possible to punch out by Superman and Doomsday, so I strongly disagree about this part, but it is derailment in any case.

 

[Antvasima]

I know Amelia wants to do a larger revision for all sorts of DC Heroes.

What does she want to do? I hope that there is no unreliable inconsistent chain-scaling involved. That doesn't tend to work for Marvel and DC Comics.

We do legitimately likely need to upgrade full power Wally West Flash to 2-A though.

 

[Joemungousaur]

Most portrayals of Darkseid avatars portray them as possible to punch out by Superman and Doomsday, so I strongly disagree about this part, but it is derailment in any case.

Darkseid was usually shown to be greatly superior to Superman in Post-Crisis. PrinceOfTheMorning made it clear in his post about Darkseid in the past. Also he's consistently 2-B in Post-Crisis too (For example, he consistently was superior to Takion).

 

[Antvasima]

I have seen several occasions when Darkseid was manhandled by either Superman or Doomsday. Once even easily so, along with his entire invading army.

 

[Joemungousaur]

I have seen several occasions when Darkseid was manhandled by either Superman or Doomsday. Once even easily so, along with his entire invading army.

Darkseid only lost 2 times to Superman (in one of these battles he was sundipped). He was consistently beyond the Tier 4 In Post-Crisis era. It was stated that Darkseid is powerful enough to destroy Takion and he proved it by creating a new being equal to Takion, Darkseid was so powerful that time collapsed when he was removed from his proper place in the timestream, played around with John Stewart and his Darkstar team as exercise (they were comparable to Lanterns), disintegrated Agogg, a being capable of easily overwhelming base Orion etc.

 

[Joemungousaur]

Also the comics where Darkseid lost to Superman are Superman vs Darkseid: Apokolips NOW (full) and Superman / Batman #13.

Note: In Superman/Batman #13 Superman was sundipped.

 

[Antvasima]

Superman also beat Darkseid in an old John Byrne story, and once effortlessly so in a brief story when Darkseid invaded Earth with his entire army, and was quickly thrown back to Apokolips. Doomsday also beat Darkseid easily once.

 

[Qawsedf234]

No, he's lost more than just twice and has struggled fighting Superman or Superman-level entities multiple times in Post-Crisis. He didn't become far beyond Superman's level for his Avatars consistently until Post-Flashpoint.

As for the upgrades the Apok sized used in the same run should be fine to use, but using other runs would make it likely unusable.

 

[Joemungousaur]

Superman also beat Darkseid in an old John Byrne story, and once effortlessly so in a brief story when Darkseid invaded Earth with his entire army, and was quickly thrown back to Apokolips. Doomsday also beat Darkseid easily once.

▪ It was Desaad who lost to Superman in John Bryne's series.

▪ I don't know that story. Can you post scans?

▪ In that comic Superman and Doomsday were megaton levels at best. So Darkseid vs Doomsday in that comic was clearly PIS.

 

[Joemungousaur]

@Qawsedf204

-Snip-

Can you give some examples?

Yes, Jack Kirby's Fourth World is continuation of New Gods Vol 4.

 

[Joemungousaur]

I highly recommend that you read this thread to understand that i mean.

Discuss Everything About VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

"Yogiri Takatou Vs Superman (Post flashpoint)" and more great discussions about VS Battles Wiki

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't know that story. Can you post scans?

One of the more well known times is from Superman vs Darkseid: Apokolips Now #1

▪ In that comic Superman and Doomsday were megaton levels at best. So Darkseid vs Doomsday in that comic was clearly PIS.

In the same comic Doomsday destroyed half a planet when fighting Radient and they both withstood a blast that was equal to millions of nuclear bombs. While weaker than later stories, they were certainly stronger than you're suggesting. The event was also mentioned multiple times in later stories, so it wasn't PIS or AIS. Its just Doomsday beating up Darkseid.

 

[Joemungousaur]

One of the more well known times is from Superman vs Darkseid: Apokolips Now #1

Yeah i know that and i said that he only lost 2 times (Superman vs Darkseid: Apokolips NOW and Superman/Batman #13).

In the same comic Doomsday destroyed half a planet when fighting Radient and they both withstood a blast that was equal to millions of nuclear bombs. While weaker than later stories, they were certainly stronger than you're suggesting. The event was also mentioned multiple times in later stories, so it wasn't PIS or AIS. Its just Doomsday beating up Darkseid.

1 million nuclear bombs = megaton levels, yeah and Superman considered this explosion as a limit to himself. It's clearly PIS, because Darkseid can't lose to a Tier 6 being.

 

[Joemungousaur]

Oh, my mistake lol apparently millions nuclear bombs = gigaton levels.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah i know that and i said that he only lost 2 times (Superman vs Darkseid: Apokolips NOW and Superman/Batman #13).

He was equaled in OWAW arc, foughtbfor awhile earlier in that arc, they've traded blows evenly before and after the period of time as well. While Darkseid might be stronger, it's not enough to warrant a completely different rating or make scaling unusable.

 

[Joemungousaur]

He was equaled in OWAW arc, foughtbfor awhile earlier in that arc, they've traded blows evenly before and after the period of time as well. While Darkseid might be stronger, it's not enough to warrant a completely different rating or make scaling unusable.

In the entire OWAW arc Darkseid was shown to be equal to Superman (Apokolips WAR is also connected to the OWAW arc), i don't deny that. But there are comics where Darkseid was clearly shown to be greatly superior to Superman-level beings. He played around with John Stewart and his Darkstar team as exercise (they were comparable to Lanterns), One shotted to Agogg (a being capable of easily overwhelming base Orion who is comparable to Superman), is powerful enough to destroy Takion and he proved it by creating a new being equal to Takion, Darkseid was so powerful that time collapsed when he was removed from his proper place in the timestream, his Omega Beams were able to cause the Spectre (Hal Jordan) pain before he began powering through them etc.

Also Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid is currently 2-B, so i'm not creating a new key / rating.

 

[Joemungousaur]

You can read POTM's thread for better explanations for this if you have time.

 

[Antvasima]

▪ It was Desaad who lost to Superman in John Bryne's series.

▪ I don't know that story. Can you post scans?

▪ In that comic Superman and Doomsday were megaton levels at best. So Darkseid vs Doomsday in that comic was clearly PIS.

1) That is not good evidence, and Darkseid was behaving very in-character during the Byrne story. In fact, it introduced Darkseid to the post-Crisis DCU.

2) Check for Action Comics 814 at ***************.to.

3) Darkseid was regularly portrayed as weaker than currently at the time as well, like it or not. There has been a lot of power creep in the post-Crisis DCU.