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DC Comics: Tier 4 Revisions
- Thread starter Joemungousaur
- Start date
- Status
- 139
- 15
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- #43
▪ What? It was clearly shown that it's Desaad who lost to Superman. The only battle where Darkseid lost to Superman was that comic, so it can't be any other comic.
▪ I will.
▪ I don't deny that. I said that we can't use that as evidence because it contradicts our tiers and scalings for these characters.
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Darkseid varies, I agree with that. But I'm saying that the aspect that Superman usually encounters isn't stronger than he is by a notable degree until Post-Flashpoint. In PC you had encounters where Superman utterly manhandles Darkseid or easily smashes him and his army.
Now the Avatars can certainly reach Tier 2 since the thread you have gives evidence for that. I'm just saying those avatars are not the usual or the baseline, they're just things he can do. Usually Darkseid is treated as a Superman level entity until Post-Flashpoint.
Now the Avatars can certainly reach Tier 2 since the thread you have gives evidence for that. I'm just saying those avatars are not the usual or the baseline, they're just things he can do. Usually Darkseid is treated as a Superman level entity until Post-Flashpoint.
- 139
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- Thread starter
- #45
Okay. Can we use Apokolips feat? Spino and KLOL said that the math is fine and i explained that why we can use that size for Apokolips for this feat.
- 139
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- Thread starter
- #46
Well, i don't argue for Tier 2 Superman. I said that the tier 4 feat performed by Lightray should scale to base Superman because Lightray is comparable base Orion and Orion is comparable to Superman.
Also your first scan is out of context, Darkseid was depowered before that battle.
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Lightray is weirder, but honestly he's sorta in that vague tier 2/3 area of the New Gods where they're usually shown to be much worse than Orion, Darkseid, and Superman. So I think the mention can be used if nothing else.
The Apok feat, as long as the quote is from the same run, should be fine. However I believe the quote from the Fourth World was "Bigger than Largest Star" wasn't it?
The Apok feat, as long as the quote is from the same run, should be fine. However I believe the quote from the Fourth World was "Bigger than Largest Star" wasn't it?
He wasn't. Dessad tried to depower him, but Darkseid overpowered him and used his as a energy channel to reabsorb the omega force.
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No, it did not. The image was very poorly drawn, and did not strongly resemble the first Darkseid/Superman battle, not did it explicitly reference it. Drop this please.
Okay. Thanks.
That doesn't matter at all. It only shows their quite consistent post-Crisis relationship to each other in terms of rather comparative power levels. I would prefer if you drop this as well. I do not have the time and energy to deal with it.
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- Thread starter
- #49
Well, i don't talk about that. I don't have the scan right now.
Ant and Qawsedf234
I will drop this whole debate about Darkseid because it's irrelevant for the purpose of this thread.
The size which i used for that calc is from New Gods Vol 4 (Jack Kirby's Fourth World is direct continuation of New Gods Vol 4), so it's very usable. "Larger than the largest star" is from Jack Kirby's Fourth World, but it doesn't contradict anything because the largest known star has radius around 1.1883e+12 meters.
- 139
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- #51
If you are fine with 2 megafoe feat then we should write that feat in Orion's AP section, also we should mention about Orion scaling in Superman's AP section.
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I would like more user input before applying the two Megafoe upgrade since that's rather major, but I'm personally fine with it.
- 139
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- #53
Okay, thank you.
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The reason the Apololips scaling is inconsistent is because it took place in an alternate dimension where everything is much more giant. Inside said dimension, everyone is amplified to the point where even characters human sized normally are large enough to perceive planet Earth as a marble. Meaning a bunch of 10-Bs got ampled to what's probably far higher than 5-A. Thus, with those amps in mind, the feat itself would likely just barely be planet level in the normal dimension.
Though, where does the 10.4 Kilofoe calc come from?
Though, where does the 10.4 Kilofoe calc come from?
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- 139
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- #57
No, these planes are gigantic even in the Fourth World dimension. It was clearly stated that Oldworld (New Genesis and Apokolips are equal halves of the Oldworld) was larger than the largest star and this statement was made in Fourth World (by narrator). This statement supports the radius which i used for calc. Also, the radius which i used for calc is from New Gods Vol 4 and Jack Kirby's Fourth World is direct continuation of it, so it isn't inconsistent.
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Someone showed a scan of Superman sounding skeptical about Earth being a spec and it being explained that way on the previous thread that removed the example.
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- #59
"Earth is a speck in air pocket" is hyperbole yes, it was clearly shown that Earths are as big as Superman's eyes.
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Are we sure those aren't metaphors for alternate earths, given how they depict parallel universes in DC? The context of this scene is to show that New Genesis exists independent of and outside all worlds.
- 139
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- #61
No, these Earths were literal planets from different universes.
"Each was a world from a universe such as yours"
"That's crazy. Those people--those planets--were tiny"
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Ah, thanks for refreshing my memory.
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- #63
@Antvasima Can we apply the changes now?
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@Zensum, @C2_of_Omegon, @Eficiente, @Sandman31, @SuperAPM, @Firestorm808, @Elizio33, @EmperorRorepme, @The_Impress @Hykuu
Your input would be appreciated here.
Your input would be appreciated here.
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Not yet. We are in extreme shortage of sufficiently knowledgeable members about Marvel and DC Comics right now, and I do not want us to risk to make our profile pages more unreliable.
- 139
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- Thread starter
- #66
Okay.
Inputs given by members (for now):
▪ Qawsedf234 said that the changes are fine.
▪ Spino75 said that the math is fine.
▪ KLOL506 also said that the math is fine.
▪ DDM said that the feat should be 5-B due to Boomtube, but i explained that these planets are gigantic even in the Fourth World dimension.
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KLOL and Spino were on the previous thread and later said the calc wasn't usable for said reasons.
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- #68
No, they said that the math itself is fine but the size of these planets are inconsistent, but i used a statement from New Gods Vol 4 and Jack Kirby's Fourth World (comic where happened the feat) is a direct continuation of it, so this size should be usable.
KLOL506: Ah, so it's got nothing to do with Apokolips and New Genesis colliding into Supes. Should be fine then.
KLOL506: Ooooooooooooh, so it has nothing to do with Apokolips or New Genesis colliding into Superman. It's an Orion v. Kalibak feat. Seems fine then.
Spino75: iirc the Apokolips thing was rejected but the math seems fine.
Spino75: Apokolips was rejected due to its inconsistent size so that's out of the window.
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That's what they probably said a long time ago, scrolling up, spino actually said it was rejected.
- 139
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- #70
No, they said these words in my blog post. Also, Spino said it was rejected due to inconsistent size of the Apokolips not due to Boomtube.
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Sorry for the late reply.
I'll look through my feat timelines and do my cross-examination.
I'll look through my feat timelines and do my cross-examination.
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- #72
Thank you for help.
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- #74
I'll do it after Firestorm's analysis is done.
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Superman Feats Timeline Project
Public Copy (Work in Progress) The main goal of this thread is to catalog any major feats to help newcomers see which feats are consistent a...
firestorm808hd.blogspot.com
From what I have on my timelines, Superman level characters aren't consistently 4-B until about Post-Infinite Crisis.
- New Gods Vol 1 #3 | July 1971
- Black Racer is as fast as Lightray.
- High 4-C via GBE, 4-B via E=mc^2 | Lightray used his remaining energies to create a new giant star by exploding a field of drifting matter into existence.
- Based on https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Celestial_Body_Feats#Creating_celestial_bodies_from_nothing
- Superman: Up in the Sky Vol 1 #6 | February 2020
- 4-C | Superman breaks chains made out of Kerenthium Steel. This material is strong enough to haul Stars between Galaxies and has to be placed under the pressure of an inverted black hole just to be forged.
- Based on https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Celestial_Body_Feats
- Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol 1 #17 | July 1998
- Orion fought against an amped Kalibak, with Metron stating that if their full might was unleashed they could lay waste to half of Apokolips.
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- 139
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- Thread starter
- #77
Here's the link: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Joemungousaur/DC_Comics:_Some_Tier_4_Feats
1. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mass-energy_conversion_feats
"Matter-energy conversion should only be used for a calculation if it is clearly stated that this is the progress used"
Lightray clearly created matter from energy, so i think we can use E = mc^2.
2. Why we should assume that kerenthium chains moved these stars at FTL speeds? Anyways this is a 4-C to High 4-C supportive feat, so it isn't very important.
1. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mass-energy_conversion_feats
"Matter-energy conversion should only be used for a calculation if it is clearly stated that this is the progress used"
Lightray clearly created matter from energy, so i think we can use E = mc^2.
2. Why we should assume that kerenthium chains moved these stars at FTL speeds? Anyways this is a 4-C to High 4-C supportive feat, so it isn't very important.
- 139
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- #79
Well, then it's a supportive 4-C feat.
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- #80
No, in Jack Kirby's Fourth World #1 it was stated that the Oldworld (NG and Apo are equal halves of the Oldworld) was larger than the largest star (the statement was made in Fourth World), this means that these planets are gigantic even in Fourth World dimension. In New Gods Vol 4 #10 it was shown that Earth is as big as Superman's eyes in New Genesis which supports "Larger than the largest star" statement.
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