- 11,807
- 7,371
this thread is just kinda toxic rn tbh, y'all wanna break it up for a while to calm down?
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
DC Comics - Animal Man Cosmology Determination
- Thread starter Xearsay
- Start date
- Status
- 167,681
- 76,260
Okay, that is actually breaking our rules of civil conduct to a bannable degree, and I do recall that you did some troll post in Promestein's farewell thread in the past, and mocked me when I mentioned it to you as well.
Given that you have been a reasonably productive member, and I tend to try to be nice, helpful, and forgiving to our members in general, I can overlook it this time, but not if you continue to make a habit of being overly toxic.
From what I recall, he relentlessly continued to argue for the sake of arguing in past threads even though Sandman31 and others had far better arguments with considerably more indepth knowledge, which made it seem that way.
No, but there is a limit to for how long the arguments should go on.
- 16,084
- 12,561
may be a good idea
- 11,807
- 7,371
like idk, take a day off and come back to the thread tomorrow, people are just kinda overreacting rn.
No one has an amazing conspiracy or are the spawn of satan, people just kept piling on extreme statements and we reached this point, chill
No one has an amazing conspiracy or are the spawn of satan, people just kept piling on extreme statements and we reached this point, chill
Pikaman
He/Him- 6,525
- 5,211
Arguments go on for as long as they need to, just because you don’t see the reason in an argument doesn’t disallow it from being made, especially when people agree with said arguments. I know the Superman 2-A removal thread is a bad example technically as everyone agrees that went on way too long, but it lasted 7 pages
- 7,836
- 14,855
I dont think it would be a bad idea to lock the thread temporarily, and have it reopened when Xearsay is ready to present a full explanation of how he arrived at his tiers. I think regardless of the minutia of the evidence, this long-winded discussion is pointless without a thorough understanding of how the evidence interfaces with the official criteria.
In other words, I literally do not know how or why he reached the tiering conclusions he did. It's not even necessarily that I disagree, it's that I don't know where he got the numbers from. We could lock the thread until he's ready to offer that, and then we can get down to brass tacks about whether or not the criteria is met by the evidence, and if the evidence is sufficient.
Pikaman
He/Him- 6,525
- 5,211
Agreed
- 11,807
- 7,371
I'm not locking it, you can not message on the thread without locking it
Pikaman
He/Him- 6,525
- 5,211
Please don’t make this break to avoid toxicity about your personal belief you don’t understand the tier explanation, when people have literally agreed with said tiers
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,906
- 2,108
1. I told you it wasn’t a troll, you assumed it was without asking, deleted the post and then made up stuff about it, I’d explained to you it was a leaving joke started by KingofNegativity, but you continued to argue as if it was trolling.
2. I didn’t say this was you, this is a trend I see from people on the website and beyond, that 1-A and above is some magical tier that we have to project or power creep or whatever.
if you identify with the statement, I don’t know what to say.
- 167,681
- 76,260
Properly presented structured schematics and logical reasoning for his tiering structure would be very appreciated, yes, and I am definitely far too busy to constantly try to defend myself from a pile-on of attacks here.
However, I am not sure if temporarily closing the thread is a good idea or not.
- 7,836
- 14,855
People can agree with the tiers despite the absence of an explanation. It's not a matter of understanding or misunderstanding, the explanation simply isn't there. The official criteria haven't been addressed in terms of why the evidence supports certain tiers. Even disregarding the personal attacks that have come up in the thread, I do not see how this discussion can reach a satisfactory conclusion until we fully establish why/how certain criteria is met.
So far the only person I've seen really get into the weeds with the tiering criteria is pain_to12, and I agree with his assessments, but apparently xearsay does not.
In other words what I'm saying is this: You can read an explanation like this one: The tier of this realm is most likely Low 1-C as it’s the space of the dream where thought becomes the template and the Animal Masters bring forth the dream of the universe. and agree with it, but that doesn't mean it actually addresses the criteria. What we need is an explanation for how this information correlates to the official requirements for 1-C, instead of leaving it to interpretation. If I don't know exactly why this person believes it's 1-C, it's impossible to discuss it without guessing as to their reasoning, which is counter productive.
That is what is needed for each of the tiering suggestions in order for them to be engaged with in a productive way. Otherwise everyone will be shouting parallel to each other.
Last edited:
- 11,807
- 7,371
I may start deleting messages from this point tbh, the attempt to get a last word in is annoying and counterproductive
In general shit currently discussed is irrelevant to OP, and feels like somethign if taken face value, should be on people's message wall
It's a break, people are stressed, don't increase stress more imo
In general shit currently discussed is irrelevant to OP, and feels like somethign if taken face value, should be on people's message wall
It's a break, people are stressed, don't increase stress more imo
- 31,372
- 34,119
I'm only here because of a Report Queue notice but.
@Udlmaster I am in no way in any position to judge based on past discussions as I usually saw you as generally reasonable and well behaved. But that comment above that consistent of the all caps quotation as well as the "Little B***h" comment were very unnecessary. It's okay that you disagree, but avoid the overly abrasive attitude. I do not think you deserved a ban, but I strict warning would suffice IMO.
Thank you.
@Udlmaster I am in no way in any position to judge based on past discussions as I usually saw you as generally reasonable and well behaved. But that comment above that consistent of the all caps quotation as well as the "Little B***h" comment were very unnecessary. It's okay that you disagree, but avoid the overly abrasive attitude. I do not think you deserved a ban, but I strict warning would suffice IMO.
Thank you.
- 167,681
- 76,260
I don't "make up stuff". I have a mental condition that gives me extremely limited mental filters outward and inward, which makes me almost incapable of lying. At best I can tone things down or avoid to say something. I am perfectly capable of misunderstanding though, but you posting a mocking meme to me in response didn't exactly instill a lot of confidence at the time.
That seems like rhetorical manipulation, given that you were clearly addressing me specifically in your response. I cannot assume that you are suddenly switching to speaking in general terms and back again.
Anyway, one issue is that Morrison has clearly not established anything remotely approaching a High 1-A hierarchy for DC Comics in any of his other cosmology-building stories, so I am naturally suspicious regarding such extreme interpretations.
- 11,807
- 7,371
welp
- 1,304
- 1,041
- Thread starter
- #257
Wow this spiraled out of control. I really don't understand why people want to topic ban me when there's been absolutely 0 given proof of me doing anything that Deagonx and Ant were talking about. I even asked Deagonx for proof of me hijacking threads so I can wank "battle boarding figures" like he claimed and his only evidence was the last Animal Man thread, which was an OPEN DISCUSSION ABOUT UPGRADING ANIMAL MANS TIER. So once again I don't understand where the reason for topic banning me is coming from and I think it's honestly just riddled with bias like Confluctor said.
Also I will reply to Pain about how these structures connect together.
Also I will reply to Pain about how these structures connect together.
- 167,681
- 76,260
The topic ban issue is something that other members started to make a much bigger deal about than what was intended with the original ill-considered offhanded comment.
As Pain, Deagonx, and I stated far more recently, what we want is a properly structured schematic with good logical arguments and evidence for all of the tiers that you want to apply. Please focus on that instead.
As Pain, Deagonx, and I stated far more recently, what we want is a properly structured schematic with good logical arguments and evidence for all of the tiers that you want to apply. Please focus on that instead.
- 167,681
- 76,260
It is fine with me, but I think that many people here seem to have a far too easy time forgetting all of the enormous amounts of hard work I have put down into being extremely helpful and considerate to them and almost all others here as soon as I do the slightest mistake. Nobody is perfect, and it is unrealistic to expect it.
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,906
- 2,108
As someone who has severe mental conditions, my issues are not to be inflicted on others. Nor do I make it a point to blame my mental issues when I do something wrong.
If I am incapable of handling my mental problems, then I shouldn't go onto a debating forum and when I get called out for bad behaviour, shift the blame to any of my mental problems.
For example, any issues which may arise of my Schizoid personality disorder are not the problems of those I inflict harm upon.
Reasoning is not an excuse, and 'to be held accountable regardless.
I was addressing your "extreme tiering" statement and using that as a diving board to the broader topic of Tier gatekeeping, which, if you remember from 2018, was something I was made victim of when people attempt to discredit me and my work because I lacked a green name and said how 1-A is a special tier WoD would never reach.
IN FACT, I was even threatened with a Topic ban on 1-A WoD, nothing has changed.
My addressing you was a tool for a broader topic, it isn't "rhetorical manipulation", whatever that even means because I've shown in the past, I will just call people anything I like, and if I wanted to insult you, I would.
- 167,681
- 76,260
You accused me of lying, and I responded with that it is always extremely unlikely that I have lied given how I fundamentally work. I do not see how that is me using my mental disabilities as excuses for bad behaviour.
Anyway, you blatantly behaved toward me in an outright toxic manner that we have repeatedly banned people for when directed toward others, and I still overlooked it, after which you continue to be very disrespectful. Not exactly an attitude of appreciating the leniency.
Anyway, you blatantly behaved toward me in an outright toxic manner that we have repeatedly banned people for when directed toward others, and I still overlooked it, after which you continue to be very disrespectful. Not exactly an attitude of appreciating the leniency.
Pikaman
He/Him- 6,525
- 5,211
DDM literally said it was only worthy of a Strict Warning
- 167,681
- 76,260
It depends on how useful a member has been to our community, but as I said earlier, I did not intend to ban Udlmaster.
However, as I also said, I do not appreciate being treated this way by people that I have dedicated many years of my life to helping to the best of my ability either.
However, as I also said, I do not appreciate being treated this way by people that I have dedicated many years of my life to helping to the best of my ability either.
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,906
- 2,108
You've moved from me saying "making stuff up" to saying I'm calling you a liar.
- 167,681
- 76,260
Isn't deliberately making things up the same as lying? I also still do not understand how me explaining how I fundamentally work is the same as using it as an excuse for bad behaviour in this case.
I am not sure what we are even arguing about at this point. It seems meaningless.
I am not sure what we are even arguing about at this point. It seems meaningless.
Udlmaster
They/Them- 6,906
- 2,108
No, making something up comes from a broad many things. Lack of comprehension, misunderstanding, etc.
Lying means I'm saying you had intent.
- 1,304
- 1,041
- Thread starter
- #270
I think you're misunderstanding how this part of the cosmology works. A lot of this kind of goes back to Bohm theory which was referenced earlier in the story. The physical universe is a system of wholes made up of smaller and smaller wholes that are spiraling down until our world/universe is like a cell in the body of God. With the Body of God representing the entire system. If one whole is already a universe, then a system of wholes that spiral down until our native world/universe is like a cell, would create layered universes. And since we know that in the interconnection, beings are dreaming each other. It stands within reason for us to conclude that system would qualify as a hierarchy.
I understand one R>F is not a tier jump. It's simply another layer into a tier. However I think this is more than just a layer into another tier. As there is a very clearly framework in place about how existence is essentially defined as a giant story or narrative that Limbo/Implicate Order is transcendent to. With even all ideal worlds imaginable which would include stuff like the imaginal worlds and the Worlds beyond the third kingdom, being just attempts at trying to describe the Implicate Order. Which suggests there's a gap between just a greater world that would see the Worlds Beyond the third kingdom as fiction and Limbo. As those would be covered in all ideal worlds imaginable.
1. The main or native universe is 2-C. As it's a standard spacetime continuum. (Animal Man #24).
2. The Space Beyond all Knowing I reasoned Low 1-C for being beyond the space of the dream (Animal Man #50) where our native 2-C universe was brought into existence by the Animal Masters. (Animal Man #50) The reason this realm is beyond the dream is because while the Animal Masters took root there (Animal Man #50) they appeared like regular humans despite also being everywhere and nowhere in the space of their own minds (Animal Man #50) within the dream of the universe. Implying that the Space Beyond All Knowing must contain and be greater than the Animal Masters who are dreaming all of reality into being. (Animal Man #50)
3. The hierarchy of universes I suggested was low 2-C to high 1-B however I think low 2-C to 1-B could also work based off what Firestorm was suggesting earlier. The reasoning for these tiers was basically what I already said at the start of this comment. The physical universe is a system of wholes made up of smaller and smaller wholes that are spiraling down until our world/universe is like a cell in the body of God. (Animal Man #88) With the Body of God representing the entire system. If one whole is already a universe, then a system of wholes that spiral down until our native world/universe is like a cell, would create layered universes. And since we know that in the interconnection, beings are dreaming each other. (Animal Man #14) It stands within reason for us to conclude that system would qualify as a hierarchy. Our native universe would be just one level in this hierarchy as it's directly said that our universe is at the bottom. It is also very much possible that the space beyond all knowing is just a higher level in this hierarchy as it does follow the whole dreaming system.
4. Now initially I reasoned that the peak of the Lifeweb is low 1-A however I believe that 1-B, possibly low 1-A would also make sense. The reasoning for the peak of the Lifeweb being this tier is because it spans not only space and time (Animal Man #86) which would make up the hierarchy of universes, but it also contains the imaginal worlds at it's top (Animal Man #89) which are higher and more fundamental and foundational realities (Animal Man #85) outside of space and time, (Animal Man #82) thus also outside of the hierarchy of universes but still above them. The relationship the Lifeweb has with the imaginal worlds is that it was spun across all the realms. (Animal Man #86) Now the Lifeweb does not stop here, the Lifeweb itself is also stretching into infinity. (Animal Man #80) Meaning the hierarchy of universes and the Imaginal Worlds are just parts of a structure that is stretching into infinity.
5. The World Soul should be low 1-A, possibly 1-A for multiple reasons. The first reason being that it conceptually encompasses the whole universe as the big idea. (Animal Man #86) Second it's considered a higher level consciousness to the imaginal worlds (Animal Man #86) which sit at the top of the Lifeweb, even going as far to be stated as the "whole amongst wholes in the mind and body of God." (Animal Man #88) Third it was found (Animal Man #87) in the Worlds Beyond the third Kingdom (Animal Man #87) which aren't listed as being a part of the Lifeweb and are also beyond it entirely. And since it's already greater than the Lifeweb which is potentially stretching into infinity, and residing in an even greater realm outside of and beyond the entirety of the Lifeweb, a possibly 1-A rating would make sense.
6. Worlds Beyond the third Kingdom should be 1-A, as they're essentially not a part of the Lifeweb (Animal Man #86) and are beyond the third kingdom which is the peak of the Lifeweb. They also contain the World Soul which is already low 1-A, possibly 1-A, making these realms even greater in size than it. Creation(the Lifeweb in this context) and the darkness that surrounds it is also considered just a swirling vortex or pattern of life that forms in it's eternal sea of consciousness. (Animal Man #87) Making the worlds beyond the third kingdom function as some kind of consciousness from which creation emerges as a life form.
7. I didn't want to tier this location, however I now think it does kind of deserve a tier. The tier of this realm would be 1-A due to not just being a middle ground between Limbo/The Implicate Order (Animal Man #24) but for also being a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality. (Animal Man #12) And knowing Morrison this vast absence that the Great Light is a manifestation of is most likely in reference to the Overvoid. As Morrison considers it the infinite nothingness that underlies all of reality. The reason this realm is transcendent to the Worlds Beyond the three kingdoms and the Lifeweb is because it's a middle ground between the Implicate Order.
8. Limbo/The Implicate Order would be High 1-A as it solidly stands beyond the framework that defines existence in the cosmology. With said framework being that everything is essentially a giant story or connected narrative (Animal Man #24) that Limbo is beyond and outside of. Even all ideal worlds imaginable are just attempts at trying to describe the Implicate Order, (Animal Man #19) which would include stuff like the imaginal worlds and the Worlds beyond the third kingdom, which are ideal worlds within the cosmology. Also this suggests there's a gap between a greater 1-A world that would see the Worlds Beyond the third kingdom as fiction and Limbo. As those should be covered in all ideal worlds imaginable.
- 16
- 1
What do you think?
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
- 5,983
Now your post above is more better than the OP and easier to read
1 and 2 checks out then you lost it again at 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. You did not say the relationship between 3 and 4 or 5 and 6 or 7 and 8. And so many jumps and gap but we will take it one by one
3 was also good to read but just plain wrong, so let's take these one by one starting from 3
Do you even know what the theory is?
ALso there is no hierarchy here
The first scan talk show about how the universe is just god spiraling down until just a cell which is the universe that’s low 1-C, not an order of higher dimensions.
A whole body to a cell we can say the analogy is uncountable infinite, actually it is in no way even up to that but let me wank it up to say what the author meant was that the whole body(god) is uncountable infinity larger than the universe.
That is still just low 1-C.
And your second scan has another context of each world been a mirror of another world, and there are lots of them that’s vague and would not still pass tier 2.
1 and 2 checks out then you lost it again at 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. You did not say the relationship between 3 and 4 or 5 and 6 or 7 and 8. And so many jumps and gap but we will take it one by one
3 was also good to read but just plain wrong, so let's take these one by one starting from 3
So you said it works like Bohm theory that was referenced prior in the series?
Do you even know what the theory is?
ALso there is no hierarchy here
The first scan talk show about how the universe is just god spiraling down until just a cell which is the universe that’s low 1-C, not an order of higher dimensions.
A whole body to a cell we can say the analogy is uncountable infinite, actually it is in no way even up to that but let me wank it up to say what the author meant was that the whole body(god) is uncountable infinity larger than the universe.
That is still just low 1-C.
And your second scan has another context of each world been a mirror of another world, and there are lots of them that’s vague and would not still pass tier 2.
- 7,836
- 14,855
These explanations have largely the same fatal flaw that the original ones did. They do not have any meaningful explanation as to why these things meet the tiering criteria, beyond the initial 2-C rating.
vsbattles.fandom.com
I don't see in youre scans where it says the Space Beyond All Knowing is beyond the space of the dream, or where it says the space of the dream is where the universe is brought into existence. And further, what is the justification for saying that it is a higher level of infinity above it? You can be above/beyond/outside of a spacetime continuum without being infinitely above it.
I don't see where this implies that each smaller whole is a universe unto itself. It seems to be saying that our individual minds are single cells in the body of God, which is the universe.
Where are these 8 or higher levels of infinity coming into play? The lifeweb spans space and time, and the imaginal worlds. You quote your scan as saying that Imagiinal Worlds are "higher and more fundamental and foundational realities" but your scan doesn't actually say that. It simply says "a realm of archetypes, images suspended in the mirror of some more basic reality." So even if we assume that this more basic reality is the spacetime continuum, that wouldn't necessarily be a greater infinity, but even if it was, that would only be a single infinity. Where are the other 7 coming from?
Objects with a number of dimensions greater than the set of natural numbers, meaning in simple terms that the number of dimensions is aleph-1 (An uncountably infinite number, assumed to be the cardinality of the real numbers themselves), and therefore that such objects fully exceed High 1-B structures, which have only a countably infinite number of dimensions. More information on the concept is available on this page.
Note that, if the High 1-B structure in question is a hierarchy of levels of existence, then simply being at the top of such a hierarchy does not qualify a character for this tier without more context, and an additional layer added on top of the "infinity-th" level of this hierarchy is likewise not enough. To qualify as an equivalent of the above description, they need to surpass the hierarchy as a whole, and not simply be on another level within it.
The first piece of evidence offered is that the World Soul "encompasses the whole Universe as the big idea." Yet the scan doesn't say anything like this. It says the Big Idea is the whole universe and that the Meme knew it would be a part of it, but it doesn't directly mention the world Soul, nor anything encompassing the Big Idea. It only references the Meme, a little idea, becoming a part of the Big Idea. So what aspect of this is the "World Soul" and where is the evidence that it "encompasses" the Big Idea, and how does that justify it being a higher spatial dimension or level of infinity?
The second piece of evidence is that it's a "higher level consciousness to the imaginal worlds that sits atop the Lifeweb." However, your scan does not mention the imaginal worlds, the world soul, nor the Lifeweb. In fact, it simply says that if the beings are similar to ant colonies, which form a higher level consciousness than any of the individual ants, he expects the see a hive. Is there evidence that these beings form the World Soul? Where is evidence of this idea of "higher level of consciousness" demonstrating superiority to the Imaginal Worlds, and further; evidence that it is atop the Lifeweb?
Your third piece of evidence is a scan that states the World Soul is "becoming aware of it's place, as a whole among wholes -- in the mind and body of god." I do not see how this supports the idea that the World Soul is superior to the Body of God, since your earlier scan suggests that the Body of God is a whole made up of smaller wholes. This scan seems to indicate that the World Soul is one of these wholes, since it is inside the Body of God.
Your last piece of evidence says it's found outside of the Third Kingdom, but that's not evidence of superiority.
Your first piece of evidence states that the Worlds Beyond are not part of the Lifeweb. That does not mean they are superior to it, nor does it mean that it is an extra Aleph infinity greater than it.
Your second piece of evidence is that they contain the World Soul. However, containing an object or being doesn't scale a realm to that being. Lucifer Morningstar has entered normal Universes, but those Universes do not scale to his full power.
Your last piece of evidence is the scan that says the Shaman floated in the White Light of Consciousness, and then a swirling vortex of life pull him into the darkness of creation, 'along a mystic spiral -- past the worlds of spirit, imagination, and matter -- through the white hole at the center of time'. For some unexplained reason, you seem to believe this statement indicates a dimunitive relationship between creation and the Worlds Beyond, but the Worlds Beyond are not mentioned in this scan, and even if they were, I do not see how or why this description of creation would suggest that the Clear Light or the Worlds Beyond are greater than creation. Certainly not infinitely so. The scan separates the white light and the darkness of creation, but it doesn't say that one is lesser than the other.
The first scan very clearly indicates that Limbo is not superior to the multiverse in the way that you are suggesting. He is explaining to the inhabitants of Limbo that they are fictional characters written out of continuity, but that they live forever, and outlive their creators/gods (the writers). They are outside of the framework of story because they're now in Comic Book Limbo, for abandoned characters. They don't have superiority to the continuity, they are just outside of it. The creators/gods being referred to are the Writers, and they are the ones who are superior to the comic book.
Your second piece of evidence is a theory from Highwater, who was told by the Yellow Aliens that his theories were only partially correct. However, even if we accepted what he said at face value, why would this information suggest Limbo is infinitely greater than the worlds trying to describe it? I do not know of any underlying principle that says a world which is an attempt at describing another world must be infinitely lesser than it.
Likewise, the scan does not say "all ideal worlds imaginal." It just says "all our dreams of ideal worlds." This would only refer to those worlds which our dreams. I haven't seen any information that the Worlds Beyond are dreamed of, and I do not see where you are getting any R>F difference.
In my final assessment, I do not see how the evidence supports the tiering criteria. The scans seem to be described inaccurately, and in general it seems that you do not understand that to rise up in tiers it isn't enough to simply be "beyond" a structure, rather you must be infinitely greater than that structure.
Tiering System
The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system the VS Battles Wiki utilizes to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats and the varying scopes that they can affect or create/destroy. Though Destructive...
vsbattles.fandom.com
To reach Low 1-C from 2-C, the criteria says spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model.
I don't see in youre scans where it says the Space Beyond All Knowing is beyond the space of the dream, or where it says the space of the dream is where the universe is brought into existence. And further, what is the justification for saying that it is a higher level of infinity above it? You can be above/beyond/outside of a spacetime continuum without being infinitely above it.
I don't see where this becomes a qualitatively greater infinity, and the exact text says "Lights in the sky attract the mind of God, like a moth to a flame. The physical universe, the very body of God, is a system of wholes consisting of smaller and smaller wholes, spiraling down until our world, our individual minds, are but single cells in the body of God."
I don't see where this implies that each smaller whole is a universe unto itself. It seems to be saying that our individual minds are single cells in the body of God, which is the universe.
I don't see how a literal question, which is never given an answer, is proof that beings are dreaming each other. I also do not see what your reasoning is for how this qualifies as a hierarchy, nor how this hierarchy would satisfy the requirements of a "greater infinity." Also, where does it say that our universe is at the bottom?
The criteria for 1-B states: spaces whose size corresponds from 8 to any higher finite number of levels of infinity above a standard universal model. In terms of "dimensional" size, this can be equated to 12-dimensional real coordinate spaces and up (R ^ 12 and up)
Where are these 8 or higher levels of infinity coming into play? The lifeweb spans space and time, and the imaginal worlds. You quote your scan as saying that Imagiinal Worlds are "higher and more fundamental and foundational realities" but your scan doesn't actually say that. It simply says "a realm of archetypes, images suspended in the mirror of some more basic reality." So even if we assume that this more basic reality is the spacetime continuum, that wouldn't necessarily be a greater infinity, but even if it was, that would only be a single infinity. Where are the other 7 coming from?
Low 1-A is defined as:
Objects with a number of dimensions greater than the set of natural numbers, meaning in simple terms that the number of dimensions is aleph-1 (An uncountably infinite number, assumed to be the cardinality of the real numbers themselves), and therefore that such objects fully exceed High 1-B structures, which have only a countably infinite number of dimensions. More information on the concept is available on this page.
Note that, if the High 1-B structure in question is a hierarchy of levels of existence, then simply being at the top of such a hierarchy does not qualify a character for this tier without more context, and an additional layer added on top of the "infinity-th" level of this hierarchy is likewise not enough. To qualify as an equivalent of the above description, they need to surpass the hierarchy as a whole, and not simply be on another level within it.
The first piece of evidence offered is that the World Soul "encompasses the whole Universe as the big idea." Yet the scan doesn't say anything like this. It says the Big Idea is the whole universe and that the Meme knew it would be a part of it, but it doesn't directly mention the world Soul, nor anything encompassing the Big Idea. It only references the Meme, a little idea, becoming a part of the Big Idea. So what aspect of this is the "World Soul" and where is the evidence that it "encompasses" the Big Idea, and how does that justify it being a higher spatial dimension or level of infinity?
The second piece of evidence is that it's a "higher level consciousness to the imaginal worlds that sits atop the Lifeweb." However, your scan does not mention the imaginal worlds, the world soul, nor the Lifeweb. In fact, it simply says that if the beings are similar to ant colonies, which form a higher level consciousness than any of the individual ants, he expects the see a hive. Is there evidence that these beings form the World Soul? Where is evidence of this idea of "higher level of consciousness" demonstrating superiority to the Imaginal Worlds, and further; evidence that it is atop the Lifeweb?
Your third piece of evidence is a scan that states the World Soul is "becoming aware of it's place, as a whole among wholes -- in the mind and body of god." I do not see how this supports the idea that the World Soul is superior to the Body of God, since your earlier scan suggests that the Body of God is a whole made up of smaller wholes. This scan seems to indicate that the World Soul is one of these wholes, since it is inside the Body of God.
Your last piece of evidence says it's found outside of the Third Kingdom, but that's not evidence of superiority.
1-A is defined in the criteria as: objects with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below.
Your first piece of evidence states that the Worlds Beyond are not part of the Lifeweb. That does not mean they are superior to it, nor does it mean that it is an extra Aleph infinity greater than it.
Your second piece of evidence is that they contain the World Soul. However, containing an object or being doesn't scale a realm to that being. Lucifer Morningstar has entered normal Universes, but those Universes do not scale to his full power.
Your last piece of evidence is the scan that says the Shaman floated in the White Light of Consciousness, and then a swirling vortex of life pull him into the darkness of creation, 'along a mystic spiral -- past the worlds of spirit, imagination, and matter -- through the white hole at the center of time'. For some unexplained reason, you seem to believe this statement indicates a dimunitive relationship between creation and the Worlds Beyond, but the Worlds Beyond are not mentioned in this scan, and even if they were, I do not see how or why this description of creation would suggest that the Clear Light or the Worlds Beyond are greater than creation. Certainly not infinitely so. The scan separates the white light and the darkness of creation, but it doesn't say that one is lesser than the other.
I do not see how "being a middle ground between Limbo" and the physical universe is remotely 1-A, nor how the phrase "manifestation of the absence behind reality" supports 1-A, with reference to the criteria.
The first scan very clearly indicates that Limbo is not superior to the multiverse in the way that you are suggesting. He is explaining to the inhabitants of Limbo that they are fictional characters written out of continuity, but that they live forever, and outlive their creators/gods (the writers). They are outside of the framework of story because they're now in Comic Book Limbo, for abandoned characters. They don't have superiority to the continuity, they are just outside of it. The creators/gods being referred to are the Writers, and they are the ones who are superior to the comic book.
Your second piece of evidence is a theory from Highwater, who was told by the Yellow Aliens that his theories were only partially correct. However, even if we accepted what he said at face value, why would this information suggest Limbo is infinitely greater than the worlds trying to describe it? I do not know of any underlying principle that says a world which is an attempt at describing another world must be infinitely lesser than it.
Likewise, the scan does not say "all ideal worlds imaginal." It just says "all our dreams of ideal worlds." This would only refer to those worlds which our dreams. I haven't seen any information that the Worlds Beyond are dreamed of, and I do not see where you are getting any R>F difference.
In my final assessment, I do not see how the evidence supports the tiering criteria. The scans seem to be described inaccurately, and in general it seems that you do not understand that to rise up in tiers it isn't enough to simply be "beyond" a structure, rather you must be infinitely greater than that structure.
Last edited:
- 1,304
- 1,041
- Thread starter
- #274
I know it’s a lot of information but I did list the relationship between each.
3-4: Lifeweb spans all of time and space which would encompass the hierarchy of universes.
4-5: The World Soul is a higher level of consciousness than the peak of the Lifeweb, resides in the Worlds Beyond the third kingdom, encompasses the whole conceptually as the big idea, and is the whole amongst whole in the mind and body of God.
5-6: Is beyond the Lifeweb and contains the World Soul along with all of creation.
7: Is just the middle ground between 8 which transcends the rest of the cosmology.
8: In simple worlds, transcends the logical framework that defines everything else.
However sure, we can go through this one by one if thats easier.
Yes. It’s mentioned by the Writer earlier in the story and I have a scan that talks about it in the main post.
1. That’s not what the scan says. However the scan is very hard to read so I will just quote it.
“The physical universe. The very Body of God. Is a system of wholes consisting of smaller and smaller wholes, spiraling down until our world, our individual minds, are but single cells in the body of God.”
As you can see in the text, the body of God is very clearly defined as the entire system of wholes, with our world/universe being just a single cell amongst these wholes. And since each whole consist of smaller and smaller wholes with our world being all the way at the bottom, this can be interpreted as a hierarchy. It honestly wouldn’t make sense if it wasn’t a hierarchy, as we’d have to cut out all the information about their blatantly being a system of wholes
2. That’s not the context of the second scan. No where does it say each world is a mirror of each other. The context of the second scan is that in the interconnected universe, every part contains the whole. Here’s the quote of it just to give proof.
“The symbol of David Bohms Implicate Order theory. A vision of a vast interconnected universe where every part contains the whole.”
The part after where The Writer says “the universe is a mirror reflecting itself” is just another aspect of the Implicate Order theory. It’s not the same as saying each universe in the system of wholes is a mirror of each other. So as of right now it’s still an interconnected hierarchy of universes where beings in the interconnection are dreaming each other.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
- 5,983
This in it self is not a hierarchy there Is none here, it is still talking about a universe been the smallest part of a whole, that whole would be low 1-C.
Nothing here passes low 1-C
What do you mean different context?
Literally the same issue next page
- While in the Implicate Order, The Writer would describe David Bohm’s Implicate Order theory as a vast and interconnected universe with every part containing the whole.(Animal Man #14)
- In an interconnected universe, who’s dreaming who?(Animal Man #14)
The scan that you said was of different context was the one that’s mentioned an interconnected universe as the implicate order theory then the other scan proceed to say in an interconnected universe, you wonder who is dreaming up who.
Also what you are sayin Is that the implicate order that is supposed to high 1-A is what he is talking about here?
Also why was it used as a scan for low 2-C to 1-B??
Make it make sense
Also I still don’t see the hierarchy or a mention of one even
- 167,681
- 76,260
Thank you very much for helping out, Deagonx and Pain_to12.
Just to clarify, is Xearsay's reasoning based on the Grant Morrison stories alone, or a composite cosmology of different Animal Man writers with wildly different ideas?
Just to clarify, is Xearsay's reasoning based on the Grant Morrison stories alone, or a composite cosmology of different Animal Man writers with wildly different ideas?
- 10,953
- 4,919
Just grant
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
- 5,983
From the Issues he is using
We have
Grant Morrison
Peter Milligan
Jamie Delano
I am not sure who wrote the 88th issue but I think Jerry Posser and Fred Harper
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,053
- 5,983
This is wrong
Grant only wrote the first 26 Issues, and there are 89 issues
And the OP did not use cosmology from the first 26 Issues, but from variety of different authors. I mean you could easily tell by the art style and writing style that they are different authors
- Status
