DBZ speed downgrade (severe)

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

I can agree with the removal of the MFTL buu saga part

 

[Antvasima]

So, what are the conclusions here regarding which speed values that we should assign to the characters?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

So, what are the conclusions here regarding which speed values that we should assign to the characters?

I can agree upon removing the MFTL for the buu saga characters- but thats about it from me.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, and what value should they get instead?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Okay, and what value should they get instead?

IMO, they should go back to the values they were at before the MFTL edit: that is "At least FTL+" or "FTL+"

 

[Antvasima]

"At least FTL+" seems fine to me. Is anybody willing to go through and adjust all of the Dragon Ball character pages?

 

[Dark649]

I can help to revise all the speeds, but i need to know what was agreed about the speeds downgrades of the Saiyan, Frieza, Cell and Buu saga's.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure, but thank you for the help.

 

[Lina_Shields]

TLT1 and I will discuss the changes that need to be made in terms of speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, I am still uncertain about the Saiyan Saga speeds, but Buu Saga is 100% wrong.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Just wondering if you guys knew that Goku was already at Kaio-Ken x10 when he deflected Frieza's lightspeed Death Beams? Scans for evidence will be provided for it soon.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Just wondering if you guys knew that Goku was already at Kaio-Ken x10 when he deflected Frieza's lightspeed Death Beams? Scans for evidence will be provided for it soon.

Goku wasn't Kaio-Ken x10 at that point in the fight, assuming you're referring tot he scene I think you're referring to.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I dont think the moon bust is an outlier, Piccolo had 5 years of training since the 23rd Budokai. And the whole "they cant get around the planet very fast" is PIS that is used to hype the story, even Tao Pai Pai can cross the planet in like 2 hours, it makes 0 sense for people unbelievably faster than him to as long as him to cross it. Like look a the Zamasu arc, Light can cross Earth 7 times in a second, by powerscaling Black is FTL so how did it take a year to for him to kill everyone on earth, are we gonna downgrade him as well? Zamasu gathered the Super Dragon Balls in like a day but it took him 5 minutes to cross a couple of city block to get to Trunks and this was a time sensitive situation so do ignore his MFTL feats because the plot demanded him to be subsonic in another?

 

[Dark649]

Goku wasn't Kaio-Ken x10 at that point in the fight, assuming you're referring tot he scene I think you're referring to.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He's not at x10 Kaioken. The reddish light in the anime scene comes from Freeza's Death Beams.

Which are not FTL, by the way.

Anyway, even if we'll keep the Piccolo Moon-Feat, we need to remove the Death Beam feat, as it is highly speculatory and wasn't accepted by most Calc Group members as far as I'm aware.

100% Freeza and SSJ Goku will still be FTL, tho.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm still heavily against Piccolo's beam feat. With Buu's and Frieza's feat debunked (no offense guys), it's easily the fastest thing in the entire series up until they hit the trillions c

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that we had just decided to remove the Buu feat. Why are Frieza's death beams disregarded?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because the feat wasnt legit in the first place.

 

[Promestein]

The speed for the death beams are based off of assumptions and broken logic.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

FanofRPGs whole reasoning was basically "This secundary sources says Freeza's Beams are made of light, so they must be lightspeed and it is true because the Z Warriors could sense the Ginyu in their ships".

So not something that should be used.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So what are the new statistics for the Dragon Ball characters going to be?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Imo, 100% Frieza to androids and semi perfect cell are FTL. Cell Saga late game characters (ascended super saiyans and Perfect Cell) at "At least FTL." Buu, Mystic Gohan, Gotenks, and SSJ3 Goku (and other characters at that level that I'm forgetting) at likely FTL+.

I have no idea what to do with the Saiyan Saga characters as that wasn't sorted out.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Howard's suggestions.

 

[Antvasima]

But I do not think we can just give them ratings without any basis except for guesswork.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But I do not think we can just give them ratings without any basis except for guesswork.

But 100% Freeza has to be FTL at a minimum.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/676828#10

I explained it here.

Sadly, we have no more better feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So, what? FTL starting at SSJ1 and 100% Frieza, with "At least FTL" or something for people leagues ahead of Frieza?

 

[Lina_Shields]

Matt and I believe that this would be an outlier, only made worse by the weirdness of using attack speed to scale to normal speed

Deflecting an attack that moves at Sub-Relativistic speeds towards you at close range would justify for Sub-Relativistic reactions/combat speed for that character. That Sub-Relativistic attack was done by Piccolo, who was comparable to Goku in terms of power/speed, and who was considered to be much weaker than Raditz. Thus, anyone who is stronger than Piccolo who blew up the Moon would certainly scale to this.

Almost all of DB's best feats are travel speed.

And these travel speed feats are done incredibly casually, and they are completely lowballed (meaning their speed could be much higher). So far, we have yet to see a maximum limit found for any combat speed in DBS (SSB Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, Whis, etc.)

It's because a back cover called them a "flash of light" (I don't need to begin why there's a problem with that)

Really? There are two official statements that Frieza's Death Beam being lightspeed.

• Piccolo's statement that it looked like "a flash of light"
• And even an official guidebook made by Bird Studios states that the Death Beam is a beam of light

Is there anything in the DBZ guidebook, or anything from the manga that would contradict these statements?

Said Death Beams are able to burn through a hole through Vegeta's chest, similar to a laser.

Feats and statements > beliefs.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Lots of things in fiction are stated to be beams of light. That doesn't make them Lightspeed. One statement from a fallible character and a secundary source are not reliable proof at all. And it being like a laser means nothing, unless you want to argue that all lasers in fiction are Lightspeed.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Lina seems to make sense.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And not every travel speed feat is casual as you claim. The enraged Vegeta who lost the Dragon Balls was very much not casual, Goku crossing Namek isn't casual.

And the DBS speed feats aren't lowballed. The best ones, at least, aren't.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Even if we are to keep Piccolo's moon feat, Lightspeed Death Beam based on two vague statements is not at all reliable.

 

[Lina_Shields]

For the next post, let's cover this issue.


You see the image above? Let's go over the what happened in the events prior to this. This event happens in Chapter 313 of the manga.

1. Goku vs Frieza

• Looking at Chapter 307 of Dragon Ball, we can see that Goku and Frieza manage a brief exchange with each other, shown in Page 111 and 112 in the bottom left corner of the page.
• In Chapter 308, Goku and Frieza prepare for their fight, starting from Page 120 all the way until the end of the chapter. There does not seem to be a display/mention of an increase in power in this chapter, however.
• In chapter 309, Goku and Frieza continue their duel, with both fighters being evenly matched for the most part (with Frieza having a slight advantage). We still do not see displays of a major increase in power by either combatant, thus either Goku and Frieza's power levels did not increase a significant amount at this point.
• In Chapter 310, and in Page 148, Frieza uses telekinesis to hurl rocks at Goku. This ability could be added to Frieza's page, if it is not already listed there.
• In Chapter 311, both Goku and Frieza go down to the ground to fight. However, in Page 160, Frieza even stops using his hands at that point, meaning Frieza is not even taking the fight with Goku that seriously. Again, no signs of a major power increase by either combatant here.
• In Chapter 312 of the manga, we see that in Page 173, Frieza states that using half of his maximum power "will suffice to grind you into cosmic dust", implying that Frieza did indeed hold back his power the entire time. This is the only time that either combatant even implies an increase in their power levels, however.
  • These are displayed in the images below at Page 173 and Page 176 respectively. The advantage immediately goes to Frieza right after Goku notices that Frieza's power increases.

Frieza "cosmic dust" statement.

Frieza increases his power to 50% of his maximum.

Now we have this image, shown below.

• Tien states that Goku is able to increase his powers by a factor of 10
• King Kai states that Goku is already using KaioKen x10

There was nothing stated/shown in the Chapters 307 to 312 that any form of power increase occurred, meaning Goku and Frieza's power levels were mostly consistent during those chapters, all the way up to King Kai's statement regarding KaioKen x10.

As for what this means, Goku was already using KaioKen x10 during the entire fight between him and Frieza up to that point. If there was an event where there is an increase in power level, we would see events/pages such as these displayed.




Goku was in KaioKen x10 the entire time during his fight with Frieza, including the instance he deflected those Death Beams. Show me the exact sca where Goku actually started to utilize KaioKen x10 from the base.

2. Speed Revisions
As for Goku's speed, since Goku deflected those Death Beams during KaioKen x10, Goku's speed will be written as:

Speed: Relativistic (Base) | FTL (Kaio-Ken x10), FTL (Kaio-Ken x20) | At least FTL (Super Saiyan)

Frieza in 25% and 50% power would directly scale to Goku's Kaio-Ken x10 and x20, considering Frieza matched and even gained the upper hand on Goku at some point.

As for the Cell Saga speeds, list them as

• At least FTL

And for the Buu Saga speeds, list them as

• At least FTL, likely higher.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I guess the anime just wasn't consistent with the manga, then.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Lightspeed Death Beam based on two vague statements

Piccolo's statement is one thing (who is possibly moving at Relativistic speeds at this point), but a guidebook is a completely different matter.

 

[FTW395]

@Lina Shields I know this is a staff only discussion, but I think this is relevant to your post. Wasn't there a scene in the Manga where Frieza States he was only using 1%? If it took KKx10 Goku to match 1% Frieza then KKx20 Goku wouldn't be able to push back 50% Frieza.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Lina

We are using a translation of a translation, which just says it is a "ray of light". It's not reliable nor detailed enough to consider.

 

[Dark649]

From what i remember one of his beams were able to quickly kill Dende, i suppose we should find what the original version says about his beams, i don't want this to end in a useless downplay.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Lina Shields I know this is a staff only discussion, but I think this is relevant to your post. Wasn't there a scene in the Manga where Frieza states he was only using 1%? If it took KKx10 Goku to match 1% Frieza then KKx20 Goku wouldn't be able to push back 50% Frieza.

We would see a major scene in the manga if Frieza was able to increase his power 50 times to what it was before. Frieza's power went up from 25% (matching Goku's Kaio-Ken x10) to 50% (matching Goku's Kaio-Ken x20), and the manga made a huge deal out of it.

Frieza's 1% statement is an exaggeration.