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DBZ speed downgrade (severe)
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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- dragon ball
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We shouldn't accept it when other calc members disagree and when the premise is as shaky as it is, just because one calc member accepted it.
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This is ideal, though Unknown Raditz all the way to Ginyu Force is eh to me.SomebodyData said:
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There is a mistake in that Death Beam calculation. It may need to be re-done.
I'll consider re-doing it tonight or something.
I'll consider re-doing it tonight or something.
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Let me just say that Yojimbo's post has been taken into consideration. Although since it is a staff board said post has to be deleted.
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Did a re-calc
@Antoniofer: Find the message here that shows Fan's calculation being debunked, from Fan's blog.
Didn't TLT not accept that calc?
@Cal: The fact that you accepted the Beamos beam of light as an actual beam of light but then reject this baffles me, considering that the
Death Beam
Lastly, Frieza's Deat Beam statement directly translates to:
@Antoniofer: Find the message here that shows Fan's calculation being debunked, from Fan's blog.
Didn't TLT not accept that calc?
@Cal: The fact that you accepted the Beamos beam of light as an actual beam of light but then reject this baffles me, considering that the
Death Beam
- Stated to be a laser by the guidebook.
- able to burn upon contact with material
- moves in a straight line (see above image)
- Stated to be a beam of light/laser by the guidebooks
- able to burn upon contact with a material
- moves in a straight line
Lastly, Frieza's Deat Beam statement directly translates to:
| Este haz de luz emitido por sus dedos fue tan ripido que nadie pudo verio. This beam of light emitted by his fingers was so fast that no one could see. |
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The calc is one again good, but I don't agree with the principle that the Death Beams are Lightspeed.
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It is not stated to be a laser in the spanish version of the guidebook. It's stated to be a "ray of light".
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- Thread starter
- #253
Yeah...no. Death Beams explode and aren't a continuous beam. Which is why Xcano declined the Guardian's laser. They don't burn on contact. Heck, the fact that you're willing to accept this but not the light arrows which were constantly stated to be light baffles me.
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- #255
That literally means nothing to this, no offense at all.
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Any Ki Blast "burns on contact". That's not an argument to say that Freeza's Death Beam are lasers. They are just a slim Ki beam.
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I have done so. They'll respond soon.
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If someone could briefly summarise the core proposed changes, that would be greatly appreciated.
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- Thread starter
- #263
I'll just be really brief about this, bud.
Piccolo's moon beam: outlier, given that it's almost twice the speed of any other speed feat in the verse, and its done by a BoS character.
Frieza's Death Beam: Just assumes that it's light via a flash of light statement from a back cover and with debunked scaling from sensing.
Buu's feat: Matt purposefully debunked himself.
Piccolo's moon beam: outlier, given that it's almost twice the speed of any other speed feat in the verse, and its done by a BoS character.
Frieza's Death Beam: Just assumes that it's light via a flash of light statement from a back cover and with debunked scaling from sensing.
Buu's feat: Matt purposefully debunked himself.
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Alright. If these feats are removed, what are the current proposed speed levels and why?
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@Cal
For Frieza's Death Beam, for the last time, Fan removed that last part a long time ago. It's already been mentioned here and on Ant's wall...
Also just a bit on your convos with Lina, are you sure being continuous is a requirement for it to be light?
@Azzy
Something like this:
Unknown Raditz - Ginyu Force
Unknown, likely Sub-Relativistic Ginyu - Namek Saga Goku + KK (Beginning to approach the level of a casual Frieza, who has a Mach 33,000 feat)
At least Sub-Relativistic Frieza 1st Form w/o Armor / Full Power 1st Form - 3rd Form Frieza
Likely Sub-Relativistic+ Goku Post-Zenkai
Relativistic Goku + KK up to x5
Relativistic+ Goku KK x 20 / 50% Frieza
FTL for basically everyone above.
For Frieza's Death Beam, for the last time, Fan removed that last part a long time ago. It's already been mentioned here and on Ant's wall...
Also just a bit on your convos with Lina, are you sure being continuous is a requirement for it to be light?
@Azzy
Something like this:
Unknown Raditz - Ginyu Force
Unknown, likely Sub-Relativistic Ginyu - Namek Saga Goku + KK (Beginning to approach the level of a casual Frieza, who has a Mach 33,000 feat)
At least Sub-Relativistic Frieza 1st Form w/o Armor / Full Power 1st Form - 3rd Form Frieza
Likely Sub-Relativistic+ Goku Post-Zenkai
Relativistic Goku + KK up to x5
Relativistic+ Goku KK x 20 / 50% Frieza
FTL for basically everyone above.
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- Thread starter
- #266
Azzy told me to recap and I did.
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@Cal ye, but when you recap you shouldn't be giving debunked info.
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You still have not debunked the fact that Frieza's Death Beam is an actual beam of light.
Also, that Piccolo Moon bust feat should still count, as there is nothing that is contradicting said feat in question. Combat Speed > Travel Speed in Dragonball Z, considering that Goku can deflect Frieza's Death Beams in base while Super Saiyan Gotenks took his sweet time looping around the Earth.
SSJ Gotenks was messing around when he did the feat however.
Also, that Piccolo Moon bust feat should still count, as there is nothing that is contradicting said feat in question. Combat Speed > Travel Speed in Dragonball Z, considering that Goku can deflect Frieza's Death Beams in base while Super Saiyan Gotenks took his sweet time looping around the Earth.
SSJ Gotenks was messing around when he did the feat however.
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@SD
Hm.
Well, I don't really have a problem with the proposed changes (I don't have incredibly strong feelings either way), though it would probably look better to drop the "Unknown" from before "likely Sub-Relativistic", as it just looks better that way and the rating is running off a justified assumption due to how quickly that gap in power is closing.
@Lina
Isn't said beam of light an attack used by and against characters who are, at that point, already Relativistic+ to FTL, anyway?
Hm.
Well, I don't really have a problem with the proposed changes (I don't have incredibly strong feelings either way), though it would probably look better to drop the "Unknown" from before "likely Sub-Relativistic", as it just looks better that way and the rating is running off a justified assumption due to how quickly that gap in power is closing.
@Lina
Isn't said beam of light an attack used by and against characters who are, at that point, already Relativistic+ to FTL, anyway?
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- Thread starter
- #270
Yes I did as it's one, not continuous, two explodes, 3, can be reflected with bare hands, and 4, is made of ki. And before you compare it to Beamos, the Beamos meets none of those disqualifications in OoT, MM, and TP. Heck, we explicitly said that ALTTP's Beamos aren't Lightspeed because it's not continuous.
Furthermore, Matt and I already debunked the combat speed > travel speed. Roshi's speed feat was him holding back, and this is heavily implied. Combat Speed being greater than Travel Speed isn't something you can assume anyway. Matt made a big deal about this in another thread.
Furthermore, Matt and I already debunked the combat speed > travel speed. Roshi's speed feat was him holding back, and this is heavily implied. Combat Speed being greater than Travel Speed isn't something you can assume anyway. Matt made a big deal about this in another thread.
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Isn't said beam of light an attack used by and against characters who are, at that point, already Relativistic+ to FTL, anyway?
Piccolo's speed/reactions is at Relativistic+ at that point, yes.
Combat Speed being greater than Travel Speed isn't something you can assume anyway.
Even if you can make two calculations to prove it?
Piccolo's speed/reactions is at Relativistic+ at that point, yes.
Combat Speed being greater than Travel Speed isn't something you can assume anyway.
Even if you can make two calculations to prove it?
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- Thread starter
- #272
Making two calculations with good combat speed (ingoring that one is the Death Beam feat) doesn't mean that one is superior to the other, just like two calced travel speed feats doesn't mean travel speed >>>> combat speed. This is the exact same logic that YT debaters use to downplay Superman (not trying to compare you to them, btw)
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Combat Speed in Dragon Ball isn't superior to Travel Speed. There's literally no basis for it. If you can move at certain speeds there is no reason for you to travel at such speeds too, if you have the stamina for it.
I am against the Death Beam calc because there is literally 0 proof that it is a laser. It's a concentrated ki beam that can explode on target. Saying it is a laser is as valid as saying that the Dodonpa is a laser.
I am against the Death Beam calc because there is literally 0 proof that it is a laser. It's a concentrated ki beam that can explode on target. Saying it is a laser is as valid as saying that the Dodonpa is a laser.
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>Combat Speed in Dragon Ball isn't superior to Travel Speed. There's literally no basis for it.
Except for the fact that whenever we get quantifiable travel and combat speeds for any saga, the combat feat turn out to be superiorr
>If you can move at certain speeds there is no reason for you to travel at such speeds too.
Not really. Example- Martial artists cannot travel (on their own) at the speed at which they fight. And humans in general can react to speeds which are greater than their own travel speed.
>I am against the Death Beam calc because there is literally 0 proof that it is a laser.
Well, it is kind of a laser in the way it is described. But ok, I could agree with that, if we do not count that as a laser, then the best combat feat we can go off are the feats where you can quantify beam speed, unfortunately there is only one such instance in early dbz where that is possible. And that is the moon feat, now I am looking for more references, where we can find an indication for combat speed.
But based on the inffo so far, combat speed > travel speed
Again, if my research yields results opposite to this, I will change my position.
Except for the fact that whenever we get quantifiable travel and combat speeds for any saga, the combat feat turn out to be superiorr
>If you can move at certain speeds there is no reason for you to travel at such speeds too.
Not really. Example- Martial artists cannot travel (on their own) at the speed at which they fight. And humans in general can react to speeds which are greater than their own travel speed.
>I am against the Death Beam calc because there is literally 0 proof that it is a laser.
Well, it is kind of a laser in the way it is described. But ok, I could agree with that, if we do not count that as a laser, then the best combat feat we can go off are the feats where you can quantify beam speed, unfortunately there is only one such instance in early dbz where that is possible. And that is the moon feat, now I am looking for more references, where we can find an indication for combat speed.
But based on the inffo so far, combat speed > travel speed
Again, if my research yields results opposite to this, I will change my position.
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Meh. I'm mixed on Piccolo's feat, but I am 100% against Lightspeed Death Beam.
Regardless, have MFTL Buu Saga ratings been removed? Those ARE pure bullshit.
Regardless, have MFTL Buu Saga ratings been removed? Those ARE pure bullshit.
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The light beam thing is sort of shaky, yes, and yeah the mftl buu saga based from the manga statement was shaky as well, so I agree there. But piccolo's feat should be kept, and maybe if we ignore the zenkais, then we can have a low end approximation of the combat speeds.Matthew Schroeder said:
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If we accept Piccolo's feat (Whatever by me), then casual Final Form Freeza would be FTL or so anyway by scaling from Kaioken.
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Hmm, well, if we go by piccolo's feat, then mid training piccolo would be roughly 7.2% light speed. If we downplay saiyan saga goku to mid training piccolo level then goku in saiyan saga would be 7.2% light speed. It was stated that when goku arrived on namek, that he was 10x stronger and faster than saiyan saga goku. So that makes entry namek goku a minimum of 72% light speed. Now if we do not accept the frieza beam feat at all, then we can downplay post zenkai goku's speed to be the same as entry namek goku's speed (this is one hell of a low ball by the way). So using this, we can get kaioken x20 goku being roughly equal to 50% frieza, which means 50% frieza is at the very least 14.4 x light speed. Using this, we can get that 100% frieza and ssj goku would be 28.8% light speed. Now keep in mind that all of this involves ignoring quite a few speed boosts, so "At least the very least 28.8x light speed, likely higher" should be ssj goku and 100% frieza's speed. So, FTL+ for ssj goku and 100% frieza (even after all of these low balling).Matthew Schroeder said:
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