DBZ speed downgrade (severe)

[FTW395]

@Lina Shields was the statement ever confirmed to be an exaggeration? If not you're just assuming it is and we can't just treat assumptions as factual if the thing we're debating is an interpretation. Besides Frieza using 25% is also an assumption.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Lina

I just read the fight in the manga, and I have to say that I disagree that Goku was using the Kaioken x10 from the beginning.

Allow me to make a lenghtier post detailing why.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, I think that Frieza using 1% of his power is an exageration, 1% of his power would makes him weaker than his 3rd form an just a little stronger than his 2nd one, that isn't true cuz he was stomping everyone before Goku; only measure of power stated there was 50% and 100%, before that just was a casual Frieza.

 

[Lina_Shields]

• Considering that the increase in Goku's power from Kaio-Ken x10 to Kaio-Ken x20 was treated as a significant event in the manga,
• Frieza using 25% of his power is derived from the fact that Frieza was able to match Goku, who was utilizing Kaio-Ken x10 during that time, although Frieza was likely stronger than Goku at that point, so Frieza was most likely using more than 25% of his power.

Anyways, that 1% statement does not match the context of the story due to the fact that Goku was already utilizing Kaio-Ken x10 at the very beginning against Frieza, and Kaio-Ken x20 = Frieza at 50% power.

If Frieza was truly using 1% of his full power, 50% Frieza would be = SSJ Goku. This is not the case since SSJ Goku was literally manhandling Frieza at 50% power.

 

[Antoniofer]

Why not just scale Goku kkx20 speed to Frieza 50%'s, Frieza was just barely faster during that fight, and the only time that powerlevel were linear were in that fight.

However, I don't think that Goku were using kkx10 when he deflected those beams, but I not support those beams being SoL as before tho.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

He's not at x10 Kaioken. The reddish light in the anime scene comes from Freeza's Death Beams.
Which are not FTL, by the way.

Anyway, even if we'll keep the Piccolo Moon-Feat, we need to remove the Death Beam feat, as it is highly speculatory and wasn't accepted by most Calc Group members as far as I'm aware.

100% Freeza and SSJ Goku will still be FTL, tho.

I agree, remove the death beam feagt cuz its sorta vague.

We should only use the piccolo moon busting fet. SDZ has a blog about it and he gets finalf form frieza 100 percent and ssj goku at 28x ftl.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay, I will be showing why Goku was not using the Kaioken x10 when he deflected the Death Beams.

http://englishfortamils.com/comics/index.php?album=Manga/Dragon Ball Z/Dragon Ball Z v10&page=5

^ I am using this. It has all of the Viz Media-translated Dragon Ball manga. I linked the part of Volume 10 when Goku starts fighting Freeza, so you can read it there if you wish.

Okay, so Goku arrives to fight Freeza on page 91.

He and Freeza trade some blows on page 96. And then Goku knocks away the Death Beams at page 98 . Then Freeza kills Vegeta and he has his dying words with Goku. Goku burries him and then vows to kill Freeza on page 107 . He is notably more determined here than before.

Goku and Freeza fight for many pages. On page 116 King Kai says that they've begun to fight to Tien, Yamcha and Chiaotzu. Meaning that he didn't considered the quick exchange of blows and deflection from before to be actual fighting.

The two continue to fight for many more pages. Goku gets thrown into the see, fires the decoy energy balls at Freeza only to kick him from behind. Freeza throws rocks at Goku, freezes him with telekinesis and throws him into the ground creating that huge explosion.

At page 140 , when Gohan and Krillin get worried, Piccolo says to them that neither Freeza nor Goku are going all-out. And on page 143 , we learn that both combatants considered everything up to then to be just a warm-up. Then Goku and Freeza discuss the conditions of the fight .

At page 148 , they start fighting more seriously, and Goku is surrounding by a glowing aura. First time this happens in the whole fight. This is a very likely instance that Goku could have first used the Kaioken x10. The two keep fighting afterwards.

At page 159 , Freeza has his 50% statement. Freeza starts laying a beating on Goku, and on page 167 and 168 we once again see a burning aura surrounding Goku. Note how on page 169 the aura fades from Goku after he gets shoved away. It's only on page 171 that King Kai says that Goku was using the Kaioken x10.

Now, we could easily say that Goku first used the Kaioken x10 on page 148, but I have the correct answer.

Going by the Full-Color version of the manga, the first time a Red Kaioken aura is ever shown on Goku is on page 167. Here is that scene in the full-colored version:

One.

Two.

Goku wasn't using the Kaiokenx10 up until that point. It was only in that brief instance he charged against 50% Freeza and was knocked out.

This is also how the anime shows it. Goku only started using Kaioken x10 against Freeza when the later was at 50%:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmg9xGcTeIg

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Matthew seems to make sense regarding the Kaioken.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Yeah goku going 10x kaioken for that doesnt make sense. He was going 10x kaioken when he fought frieza then he briefly went 20x to try and take down 50% frieza with a kaioken


Overall for the pre-buu saga speeds, we should rely on the moon busting feat for the combat speeds

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay, if you people think Moon-Busting speed is fine, I guess.

My assumptions regarding it:

Piccolo's blast was 7% of the speed of light, or 20,985,472.1 m/s

Goku after training is at the very least faster than Raditz who could casually dodge Piccolo's beams with ease.

Goku with Kaioken x4 = 28% of the speed of light, or 83,941,888.2 m/s

Goku got way stronger after the 10G training. Not sure about using the x10 statement unless it is in a japanese original source (Mind you that this is all a lowball anyway).

So Goku when he fought Ginyu was at least 28% of the speed of light, and he could use Kaioken x20 to show of.

Ginyu Goku with Kaioken x2 = 56% of the speed of light, or 167,883,776 m/s

Then Goku after Zenkai had a higher power level than before (3 Million vs 180k), so he's at least as fast as before. And he could use Kaioken x20

End of Freeza Arc Goku with Kaioken x20 = 11.2 times fater than light.

Multiply that by 2 for 100% Freeza and we have 22.4c

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Okay, if you people think Moon-Busting speed is fine, I guess.
My assumptions regarding it:

Piccolo's blast was 7% of the speed of light, or 20,985,472.1 m/s

Goku after training is at the very least faster than Raditz who could casually dodge Piccolo's beams with ease.

Goku with Kaioken x4 = 28% of the speed of light, or 83,941,888.2 m/s

Goku got way stronger after the 10G training. Not sure about using the x10 statement unless it is in a japanese original source (Mind you that this is all a lowball anyway).

So Goku when he fought Ginyu was at least 28% of the speed of light, and he could use Kaioken x20 to show of.

Ginyu Goku with Kaioken x2 = 56% of the speed of light, or 167,883,776 m/s

Then Goku after Zenkai had a higher power level than before (3 Million vs 180k), so he's at least as fast as before. And he could use Kaioken x20

End of Freeza Arc Goku with Kaioken x20 = 11.2 times fater than light.

Multiply that by 2 for 100% Freeza and we have 22.4c

the 10x stronger than faster statemtn apparently comes from the back of a manga volume (the image in linked in SDZ's blog)


the way it goes is, goku being lowballed to being as fast as mid training piccolo's beam, so entry lvl namek go would be 70 percent light speed (based on the lowball). Then, he gets an unquantifiable zenkai before fighting frieza so we dont account for that. So kaioken x20 goku against 50% frieza would be 14x ftl. And since that was 50% frieza, 100% frieza would be 28x ftl and ssj goku would be at least 28x ftl.

(Keep in mind this doesnt take into account the massive zenkai goku gets and lowballs saiyan saga goku to mid training piccolo's casual beam).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, the Zenkais are quantifiable. Goku had a power level of 3 million compared to his previous 90,000, itself 10 times greater than his famous, but incorrect Saiyan Saga 9,000. This is why the back page said his power was 10 times greater, and why we can't use it since we don't scale power levels linearly.

Regardless, the Goku that fought Freeza at base would be faster than Kaioken x2 Goku when he fought Ginyu.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

No, the Zenkais are quantifiable. Goku had a power level of 3 million compared to his previous 90,000, itself 10 times greater than his famous, but incorrect Saiyan Saga 9,000. This is why the back page said his power was 10 times greater, and why we can't use it since we don't scale power levels linearly.
Regardless, the Goku that fought Freeza at base would be faster than Kaioken x2 Goku when he fought Ginyu.

ofc we know that, but we cant stamp a number on it like 10x or 20x or 2x, the thing is, the gains seem to be inconsistent overall. But yeah we do know that post namek zenkai goku was indeed much faster than early namek goku. And even with clear lowballs, early name goku is at least relativistic.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My point is that if you want to use the x10 statement from the back cover of the US version of the manga, then that would make 100% Freeza and SSJ Goku x56 FTL since End of Freeza Arc Goku > Ginyu Goku with Kaioken.

I don't think we should use that back cover, tho.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This seems like an abuse of multipliers...

And as I said above, when a BoS feat trumps any feat by EoS by around double, that's an outlier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, pretty much. A feat done by Raditz Arc Piccolo is the best speed feat in all of Z, even when going as far as Buu Saga. That's quite the problem.

 

[SomebodyData]

What about the Frieza Saga Goku travel feat or Gotenk's? Or has those too been debunked?

 

[Antoniofer]

The Goku's one seems to be debunked since it seems like they are pretty close to the ship, even Goku say they're nearby; not sure about the Gotenks one, I haven't see it, but that feat can be easy sub-rel, but still being pretty slow to be in the last arc of Z.

 

[SomebodyData]

Wait, was it debunked because of the ship? How does the ship relate to the Goku travel speed feat (The one where he goes to the other side of the planet in a moment)?

Well it was just Gotenks playing around, including the fact that travel speed < combat speed, so it would be more like reaffirmation.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Travel speed<combat speed is a myth and no one brought up a single feat to the contrary. Honestly it just seems like something SB fans like to say. Furthermore, Piccolo's feat is mid Mach 60K. Like 65K or 66K. Literally every other feat in the series doesn't go above Mach 35K. There's a reason why OBD had "Mach 35000 is the final number" for Buu's profile.

 

[SomebodyData]

You mean other than:

- Being matched by Krillin in travel speed when they were training for the first World Tournament despite being Peak Human+ combat speed

- Having only Peak human - Low Superhuman travel speed when he had become Supersonic in combat speed (As shown by the Red Ribbon being able to even see Goku running)

- Subsonic Roshi despite being an unknown degree above Supersonic

- Using the Flying Nimbus (Low Supersonic) when he had Hypersonic combat speed

- Taking a long time to travel Snake Way (Hypersonic if we lowball) when even Piccolo Jr Saga Goku had High Hypersonic+ combat speed

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, obviously even when using the best feat of Mach 35K (First Form Freeza), the strongest characters would be FTL

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

This seems like an abuse of multipliers...
And as I said above, when a BoS feat trumps any feat by EoS by around double, that's an outlier.

How is it debunked? We can clearly see that in all the cases where travel and combat speeds can be quantified that the combat speed ends up being bigger. Remember that Roshi could only Run at subsonic speeds while his combat speed is much higher. And in saiyan saga while the travel speed is only hypersonic, the combat/beam speed was sub relativistic+.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And across all of DBS, all the feats sans Zeno's blast are Travel feats. What's the point?

 

[SomebodyData]

Who you referring to?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

TLT1, though you're post is better structured and more convincing than him.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

And across all of DBS, all the feats sans Zeno's blast are Travel feats. What's the point?

And? The point is whenever we get any combat feats, they always give combat speeds greater than any travel feats of the same time period in the story.

SD has also listed out a bunch of these cases as well.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@SD. You're using feats that don't top Mach 3 to justify luminal speeds. That doesn't work.

 

[SomebodyData]

What? The point was that travel speed < Combat speed? Why does the degree matter?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because you're using examples from before when the formula changed forever. Also, your examples either don't have any proof and just saying Roshi is subsonic, or flawed in the case of Red Ribbon seeing Goku run. Only convincing argument is they Hypersonic one to High Hypersonic. And lack of feats doesn't mean such an assumption can be made.

 

[SomebodyData]

When did the speed rules change forever? This seems like a blantant assumption.

The Roshi one is something that I took from LT, so I can't say, but I'm willing to drop that, but what are the ones with no proof?

What are the flaws lol? Please state them and not just say it is. Also how is the red ribbon one flawed??

"And lack of feats doesn't mean such an assumption can be made." 99% sure you stole this from me, but coincidentally enough, you're not using the phrase right, these were feats in comparison to each other?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'll address these one at a time. Being able to see your opponent won't make peak human due to stuff like plot convenience. I guess Kirby is normal human is speed given that he ba to use the Warpstar and can barely outrun rolling apples? Or Flash due to the fact that his rogues can tag him?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, I didn't mean speed rules. I meant Dragon Ball formula in general. And that's common knowledge.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Kintou is also not Low Supersonic. It is faster than the Goku who crossed Snake Way.

 

[SomebodyData]

Plot convience would be if he was all around nerfed to give them a fighting chance. They were completely destroyed, even if they hadn't been able to see him, then the result and fight would be the same, just way less bullets, even his combat speed was normal.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cal actually the formula changed with King Piccolo's Saga.

But even then, this argument is absurd. Just because the plot formula changes, the rules of the verse don't have to necessarily. I could think of this being used in nearly every series, (Madoka Magica to Rebellion, etc)

@Matt Really? I remember the Nimbus being used in Z only to save energy for Goku (in case that is where you got the scaling), and even the official guidebook (Daizenchuu 4 to be specific) mentions it is merely mach 1.5.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

SD, it matters when literally every feat that's worth its salt other than the outlier is a travel speed feat post Classic.

Actually, the Death Ball is an exception.

 

[SomebodyData]

As I mentioned, when the plot formula changes =/= the basic rules of the verse change. This "Post-Classic" is something as fan-made as "Puesdo legendaries", both holding no weight in this, or any official debate.

How is it an exception?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Exactly.

Piccolo's Moon-Bust Feat is the fastest feat in ALL of Classic Dragon Ball. A feat done by Raditz Saga Piccolo is faster than anything done in the Vegeta Saga, Namek / Freeza Saga, Android Saga, Cell Saga and Buu Saga.

The feat was ONLY surpassed in Dragon Ball Super, where MFTL+ Universal characters were introduced.

 

[SomebodyData]

Again, what does the degree of the feat have to do with this. Unless you're no longer on the same topic as us Matt