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Freeza's Death Beam isn't MFTL+, I'm sorry. We go by what the actual feats of speed show, not by basing on the sensing capabilities which are very inconsistent in Dragon Ball.
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DBZ speed downgrade (severe)
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
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Yeah exactly. Cinematic time can be used to downplay any verse. For example we know gold saints (in saint seiya) are at least lightspeed (and during the sanctuary arc Seiya and his friends fought equally with them), but someone could use the time they took to climb stairs (that was slowed down so the spectator can understand what happens ... otherwise if they climbed for stairs at lightspeed we wouldn't see anything) to severely downplay the verse to peak human. I can already imagine joke profiles:RadicalMrR said:
"Seiya's speed: peak human (can climb stairs really quickly)."
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I agree with Matt. Sensing is far too inconsistent.
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@Jeune Fou
The Saint Seiya stair-climbing is a terrible example. Athena and the Pope both warp the space around the entire Sanctuary, and the 12 Houses in particular, making it impossible to use abilities such as teleportation to get across, and making the climb last around 12 hours.
The Saint Seiya stair-climbing is a terrible example. Athena and the Pope both warp the space around the entire Sanctuary, and the 12 Houses in particular, making it impossible to use abilities such as teleportation to get across, and making the climb last around 12 hours.
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The Death Beam is FTL if Freeza is 100%. If he's not it's Relativistic at best.
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But my examples aren't nearly as extreme as yours, and they offer no such explanations. Even Vegeta while furious to having had his Dragon Balls stolen still didn't cross Namek instantly. Goku doing that is meant to be a great show of speed.
But anyway, even if we do keep Piccolo's moon feat around, we need to do something about MFTL Buu. That is clearly wrong.
But anyway, even if we do keep Piccolo's moon feat around, we need to do something about MFTL Buu. That is clearly wrong.
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Based on the anime? I guess.
Not so sure that can be inferred from the manga.
Not so sure that can be inferred from the manga.
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Not necessarily: if we say SSJ Goku (on namek) is at least 28 times FTL (this was what was said on a old thread). Even if Goku's speed remains the same despite his training, you have to multiply his speed by 2 for SSJ2 (56 times FTL) and by 8 (compared to SSJ) for SSJ3 (224 times FTL). ANd majin buu is comparable to SSJ3 Goku.
Normally multipliers wouldn't work but we have precise numbers for each form and we know the kaioken gives a linear boost. Also since he was able to keep up with 100% Frieza in SSJ (while he was equal to him with his kaioken x 20) we know SSJ transformations don't increase strenght only.
It is true SSJ transformations might not be linear like the kaioken but even if you divide 224 by 2 he should still be in the MFTL (trash tier MFTL but still MFTL).
Normally multipliers wouldn't work but we have precise numbers for each form and we know the kaioken gives a linear boost. Also since he was able to keep up with 100% Frieza in SSJ (while he was equal to him with his kaioken x 20) we know SSJ transformations don't increase strenght only.
It is true SSJ transformations might not be linear like the kaioken but even if you divide 224 by 2 he should still be in the MFTL (trash tier MFTL but still MFTL).
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@Jeune
First: SSJ Goku is not x28 FTL. Secondly, Super Saiyan Multipliers are not accepted. The only multipliers that are accepted and which have confirmed linear scaling for all stats are the Kaioken Multipliers. The Super Saiyan numbers have never been given.
Never Super Saiyan Multipliers nor Power Levels are accepted as valid. This is practically a decade-long common knowledge by now.
First: SSJ Goku is not x28 FTL. Secondly, Super Saiyan Multipliers are not accepted. The only multipliers that are accepted and which have confirmed linear scaling for all stats are the Kaioken Multipliers. The Super Saiyan numbers have never been given.
Never Super Saiyan Multipliers nor Power Levels are accepted as valid. This is practically a decade-long common knowledge by now.
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I posted a caqlc trying to find Namek's radius, but again, is some speculative for my likes; also, I still have problem with if Goku travelled half Namek circunference or not, the front say one thing and the panels show another.
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This may be out of place but in freiza saga weren't the good guys (krillin, gohan) and vegeta hiding from Frieza and his gang?
Krillin even told gohan in a scene iirc to suppress his Ki so they don't find them.
If they went around blitzing everywhere without caution and ended up even slightly in Freiza's peripheral vision then it'd be game over for them. Since Freiza was faster than everyone at that point. And they do have the bad habit of having that glowing white around them at all times and leaving a trail.
Goku though never had to consider this since he only did two things, get to the ginyu force then get beat+heal and then move to where Freiza was.
My point being, the Z gang couldn't have given their best travel speed feat due to their situation.
Krillin even told gohan in a scene iirc to suppress his Ki so they don't find them.
If they went around blitzing everywhere without caution and ended up even slightly in Freiza's peripheral vision then it'd be game over for them. Since Freiza was faster than everyone at that point. And they do have the bad habit of having that glowing white around them at all times and leaving a trail.
Goku though never had to consider this since he only did two things, get to the ginyu force then get beat+heal and then move to where Freiza was.
My point being, the Z gang couldn't have given their best travel speed feat due to their situation.
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Did anyone read my comment up top? What about the other characters from other verses who have much higher combat or reaction speed but lower travel speed. How can you accept him destroying the moon but not how fast he did it? It's a fact that dragon ball dosent do many feats everyone is mostly power scaled and like I said in my first comment they are faster in their fighting and reflexes then they are in travel speed I really believe piccolo's blast speed is not an outlier.
I 'll admit this is my only argument and it isn't the best but I personally believe it's not an outlier
Also sorry I know this is a staff only thread but my phone is messing up and it keeps backing me out of the wiki every time I move to a different page so I came straight to this thread to reply my Apologies
I 'll admit this is my only argument and it isn't the best but I personally believe it's not an outlier
Also sorry I know this is a staff only thread but my phone is messing up and it keeps backing me out of the wiki every time I move to a different page so I came straight to this thread to reply my Apologies
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What's the point of moving this to Staff Only if this isn't being properly managed and kept staff only?
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Due to the scans shown above, the crossing namek feat should not be used, but what about the light ball feat? I calced it a second time
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1psjxTAddZVxu7uH8XYgwurViuxkjITdNjtyYGacDvjY/edit?usp=sharing
Though it seems lowballed in my opinion, I guessed the size of the tree.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1psjxTAddZVxu7uH8XYgwurViuxkjITdNjtyYGacDvjY/edit?usp=sharing
Though it seems lowballed in my opinion, I guessed the size of the tree.
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Freeza's feat still wields better results.
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Yes, but the problem with my calc above is that I legitimately cannot find a consistent statement of how quick the time between the activation and the initial reactions of the explosion would be. I chose 1 milisecond because that is what I found, but I find some sources saying it takes place in microseconds or the likes.Matthew Schroeder said:
Secondly, the distance Goku crossed might be different, as I cannot find a way to calc the size of the trees.
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What's the other feat? the only one that I remember is the death beam one and were tryed to be debunked in OP.Matthew Schroeder said:
About the explosion feat, it could be considered a speed feat, but the explosion hasn't any given expasion speed or similar: Even if we use the highest detonation speed known (that we shouldn't), the result would stil be slow.
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No, the feat is of Goku escaping across the blast at "super speed"Antoniofer said:
he crossed about a kilometer in the timeframe between the explosion touched the ground and shattered (he could NOT escape the ball) and when the explosion even existed. The explosion is very similar to a nuke, and even produced a mushroom cloud after the fireball. What is the timeframe between a nuke being activated and the explosion even happening?
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@Antonio
The other feat is First Form Freeza casually throwing his slow-ass Death Ball into Planet Vegeta, which is calced at Sub-Relativistic. Through even conservative multiplication, we get FTL SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza.
The other feat is First Form Freeza casually throwing his slow-ass Death Ball into Planet Vegeta, which is calced at Sub-Relativistic. Through even conservative multiplication, we get FTL SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza.
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My calculation could theoretically yield FTL feats easily
http://waynesthisandthat.com/abombs.html
According to this, it takes a milimeter for a nuke to expand just 100 feat. The fact is that Goku had to leave the explosion before it could do ANYTHING to him, so the timeframe is probably way less.
http://waynesthisandthat.com/abombs.html
According to this, it takes a milimeter for a nuke to expand just 100 feat. The fact is that Goku had to leave the explosion before it could do ANYTHING to him, so the timeframe is probably way less.
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- Thread starter
- #106
DT was vehemently against using nuke values for something that wasn't nuclear.
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Even using the speed of a nuke's expansion, the speed would be only Mach 88.707; and in several occations of explosions in DB produce light rather than fire, however, that would makes the situation more confussing, so just going to let it with not using "nuke speed"
Not sure about scaling Frieza's Supernova to others, no one hasn't reacted to that kind of attacks, and that speed comes from size.
Not sure about scaling Frieza's Supernova to others, no one hasn't reacted to that kind of attacks, and that speed comes from size.
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It does not matter how fast it goes, it matters how far it went making the timeframe. IIRC, Goku said that blast would have done good damage to him. Meaning he got out before the explosion made any impact in size at all, thus making the timeframe miniscule.
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My bad for joining in but isnt this now just staff-only? Why are there normal members replying to this?
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@Antoniofier
Freeza's Supernova is a slow-moving attack, and characters often react to their own Ki Blasts in training. See Goku, Gohan and Krillin redirecting their own energy blasts at themselves. Also Piccolo could react to Second Form Freeza's fastest Ki Blasts, so it definitely scales.
Freeza's Supernova is a slow-moving attack, and characters often react to their own Ki Blasts in training. See Goku, Gohan and Krillin redirecting their own energy blasts at themselves. Also Piccolo could react to Second Form Freeza's fastest Ki Blasts, so it definitely scales.
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@Matt we should never use conservative multipliers like that. Unless there is actual reasoning behind the math, I have to disagree.
@Cal not sure about the rest of this thread but about your post.
-Piccolo's Speed Feat being an outlier
How is this weird? Especially your lightning timer logic. We know Piccolo's beam goes at a certain speed, hence we scale. Under your logic, we would have to constantly calc stack just to get results for all verses' speeds.
Your reasoning, as far as I can see is not understandable. You say that travel speed > combat speed because we have incredible travel speed feats but no combat speeds on that level. This is a false comparsion, as there is the lack of combat feats for the higher level travel speed feats to compare.
The notion of combat speed > travel speed is common knowledge, just from looking upon the times when there were actual combat speed feats to compare to. (Ie most of the og DB)
Basically don't confuse lack of combat speed feats with crappy combat speed feats
FTL+
Have to agree actually, the Death Ball probably is the only thing that scales, though if the former isn't debunked, it wouldn't mean anything, and we would have to set speeds around that level to unknown, as even Frieza had a lot of time in his perspective when he unleashed the attack if I remember correctly.
@Cal not sure about the rest of this thread but about your post.
-Piccolo's Speed Feat being an outlier
How is this weird? Especially your lightning timer logic. We know Piccolo's beam goes at a certain speed, hence we scale. Under your logic, we would have to constantly calc stack just to get results for all verses' speeds.
Your reasoning, as far as I can see is not understandable. You say that travel speed > combat speed because we have incredible travel speed feats but no combat speeds on that level. This is a false comparsion, as there is the lack of combat feats for the higher level travel speed feats to compare.
The notion of combat speed > travel speed is common knowledge, just from looking upon the times when there were actual combat speed feats to compare to. (Ie most of the og DB)
Basically don't confuse lack of combat speed feats with crappy combat speed feats
FTL+
Have to agree actually, the Death Ball probably is the only thing that scales, though if the former isn't debunked, it wouldn't mean anything, and we would have to set speeds around that level to unknown, as even Frieza had a lot of time in his perspective when he unleashed the attack if I remember correctly.
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^Thats actually true
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It's always best to be conservative with unconfirmed multipliers than go wild with it. But again, even with the most conservative, unrealistic low-end, we get FTL Goku and Freeza.
"How is this weird? Especially your lightning timer logic. We know Piccolo's beam goes at a certain speed, hence we scale. Under your logic, we would have to constantly calc stack just to get results for all verses' speeds."
I don't get this comparison.
"How is this weird? Especially your lightning timer logic. We know Piccolo's beam goes at a certain speed, hence we scale. Under your logic, we would have to constantly calc stack just to get results for all verses' speeds."
I don't get this comparison.
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Well yeah, but I've never been one for assuming unless there are literally massive gaps. Though you can probably use Frieza's power restraints as a method to do this conservatively without too many guesses.
Me neither, I was just pointing it out as it was the reasoning for his "debunk" and showing the consequences of the logic used.
Me neither, I was just pointing it out as it was the reasoning for his "debunk" and showing the consequences of the logic used.
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This is supposed to be a Staff Discussion, so please cease the comments and quoting large wall text, @Dragonmasterxyz already say that there's any doubt, talk to him in his wall.
I'm proceed to delete the last non-staff comments, if one of them are relevant, take the freedom to recover them.
I'm proceed to delete the last non-staff comments, if one of them are relevant, take the freedom to recover them.
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Still, we should remove Massively FTL ratings from Buu Saga characters.
As the one who made the upgrade in the first place, I can confirm that it is objectively incorrect.
As the one who made the upgrade in the first place, I can confirm that it is objectively incorrect.
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Yes, we should, along with the Super characters scaled to them.
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