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DBZ speed downgrade (severe)

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I'd like to know why is there a problem with scaling them to piccolo's moon bust speed. People say outlier because of gokus snake way thing but that's travel speed and we already know they fight much faster then they travel. I assumed that was why all their speed stats said "in combat speed, reactions and short bursts". I'm sure their are other charecters who have very high combat or reaction speed but lower travel speed Spiderman is one of them has massive hypersonic travel speed but only supersonic combat speed. No one ever out paces blast for a long time in dragon ball they ether react and block or dodge at the last second so I don't see the problem with their current speed but that's just my opinion
 
^Kid buu stronger than Gotenks no?

but i think that MFTL buu is way exaggeration consider that Gotenks travel speed best feat is around Sub-Relativistic,the different between them cant be that huge even SSJ2 vegata was able to keep up with Buu and he weaker than Gotenks
 
We do have Goku's feat, which is a planetary crossing in a nearly instantaneous timeframe (Faster than the time it would take Freeza to thrust his hand into Vegeta's chest and kill him). Some use 1 second, which I don't think is too bad given the context.

Earth has an equatorial radius of 6,371 km, or 6371000 meters. That in one second is 6371000 m/s.

That times x20 accounting for Kaioken x2 again accounting for 100% Freeza is 254,840,000 m/s or 0.850054740203c

It is pretty consistent with the values given by Freeza's casual Death Ball, which is actually a better feat. So yeah, FTL Dragon Ball since Super Saiyan 1.
 
Well Goku base cant be faster than Buu saga Piccolo who take mins at full speed cross erath and from Veagta SSJ1 who also take time move from some point to point or base Buu saga Gohan who took 20 mins move around 10,000 km(I think) or Gotenks SSJ1 who take mins fly along earth few time ,so i think this feat is outiler or that simply Goku didnt travel that long,since we dont actually know the distance between Fireza and Goku then
 
I generally agree with this, I've actually been meaning to bring up the topic of the validity of Frieza's death beams being recognised as real light.
 
When you said that he travel 6371 km sounds like he travelled an earth radious, if he travelled at most half circunference the distance would be around 20000 km; however, Namek could be a different size than Earth, and I actually don't remember that feat/statement.
 
I really don't want to contribute, as I have lost interest in Dragon Ball, but keep in mind.

The "Death Ball" (Supernova) is a very slow moving projectile for blast standards. The reason it is so dangerous is because, well it is freaking massive, and it is Freeza's ultimate attack (I actually want a slight downgrade for character's AP stats for that very fact. The only feat where a character counters Supernova is in Kai whose canonocity is very shaky at best.) Even First Form Freeza's normal energy blasts would travel much faster than the Supernova, would that count to anything most likely?

For the Goku crossing Namek feat. I am hearing the across namek is just BS and that he really only crossed a few km tops. Can someone confirm how far he crossed? The source of it comes from the same one that says Goku became 10x faster/stronger under 10x gravity (Honestly, I believe this should be used. It just makes sense to me regardless of canonocity). Also, for the timeframe, characters could have entire skirmishes in just 0.2 seconds, way back in Dragon Ball. Here, Freeza was just doing a mere strike at the heart, at a time when characters should be at least dozens of times faster, likely much higher. So, should the timeframe be 0.2 seconds at least?

Oh, about the imprisonment light ball feat, I think I linked it on my Death Beam calc blog.
 
@Fan

Again, I would be okay with applying an additional x2 multiplier for speed given how slow the Death Ball is compared to other attacks.

No, I think that 1 second is best. And it really is half a planet across.
 
Does anybody know if there exists a calculation or approximation of Namek's size?
 
I don't think there is. People use Earth as a lowball. Some say it is far larger since Frieza didn't one-shot it. But Bulma can breath and survive on it with no problem, so I do think it is Earthlike.
 
So what you guys just gonna to ignore all the others travel speed feats that contradict this? it kinda stupid
 
There's no much to find about Namek, even with a shot of it we doesn't have anything to scale, the only what we known is that has earth gravity and one namekian years is equal to 1/3 earth's year. I need to ask, in what chapter Goku travelled the Namek's circunference?
 
@Ant

well the true size is unkown an im unaware of such a calc but to give you a scale to start with earth in DB is considered as a small planet when compared to others and namek is considered a large planet.

also as a general question, this downgrade is for travel speed not combat speed correct ?
 
what about picolo's at least sub rel/possibly light speed feat ?

the one where his beam reached the moon in seconds and raditz was able to dodge a similar ray at point blank
 
For the Sub-Rel thing, the problem is characters are still taking stupidly long times to get to places in DB to this day. The problem stems from the fact no one working on it has any clue how fast they made their characters, similar to how CW Slash is mach 3.3 according to the writers but has much higher showing so we just decide to look at low showings as inconsistencies in the story whnever they appear. Like lets look at Snake Way, if we took it seriously and not as PIS to create tension, Goku would be be 65.2778 m/s Pre-Snake Way and 15,432 m/s post Snake Way, a jump from from Supersonic to High Hypersonic, both of which contradict DB where Goku's other showing because of PIS. TLT was suggesting we calc Piccolo's attack in DB where it seemed go the outer regions of Papaya Island as well as revisit Fan's calc here.

Im not against downgrading the characters, I just want to cover all our bases before we do.
 
@Antonio

It was when Goku woke up from the healing pod, and instantly went from his location to where Freeza was. According to descriptions, he was on the other side of the planet.
 
Welp, I was looking at the episodes, and doesn't seems like they that far from the ship: here is the first time that Vegeta saw Porunga, and here Goku even say that they are nearby.

Between other things, I can determinate the distance between Namek and the it Sun, but that's all, I can assume gravitational force between then after that, but that would be speculative.
 
@RadicalMrR

that example you gave was travel feat which is very low in DB in general untill super came out while combat speed in DB is far greater.

i also believe that you're not factoring in the fact that goku slept on his was back from the snake way.
 
I think that RadicalMrR makes sense.
 
I agree that this is a very hard issue to properly rank. The best feat we have other than Piccolo's outlier is Freeza's extremely casual and slow Death Ball, which ends up with FTL 100% Freeza.
 
I could be paronoid but should this be more suited in a Staff-only disucssion? This downgrade seems to be a very signifigant one that would affect a lof ot characters me thinks.
 
I would like to point out something. Toriyama often comes with "random numbers" because he wants to write a simple story so when he came with his 1 000 000 km thing he didn't want to do actual maths to check if this travel speed feat could match Goku's fighting speed.


He came with that random number. And we know it is true to say fighting speed feats are superior to travel speed feats in dragon ball (except of course recent feats where they cross universes in DBS) because the same thing was done with lifting strenght and striking strenght (striking strenght feats are superior to lifting strenght feat in dragon ball): in the manga DBS Vegeta couldn't lift 1 000 tons in his SSJ (which means Vegeta could barely lift 20 tons in his base form and that would make him around building level if we said his striking strenght was proportional to that ... but we know it is not true because Frieza who's weaker than base Goku or Vegeta one shot the Earth with the palm of his hand).


Also, Frieza in the namek saga and Goku are not FTL + simply because death beam was said to be a "flash of light" but because a manga cover confirmed Goku was 10 times faster when he arrived on Namek (compared to the saiyan saga). Therefore his speed was around 70% of the speed of light (and yet calcs were a low end because we didn't consider the fact Goku was way faster than Raditz, that was basically Raditz x 10 ... and we didn't consider the zenkai boost neither) in his base form on Namek.


Then it becomes 14 times FTL if he uses kaioken x 20 and at least 28 times ftl if he uses SSJ.


For me those calcs that make Radditz sub relativistic + (7% SOL) make sense because even before the 23rd world tournament, Goku learnt to dodge real natural lightning and during the tournament him and Piccolo were way too fast for Kami's "godly eyes". And Raditz could casually stomp them 5 years after the tournament in question.


Also if some people here are still sceptical about that ... then there's one travel speed feat that correspond to all that: Base form Goku tried to reach Frieza to fight him (during namek saga). He was at the other size of the planet (confirmed by this manga cover: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/39090/767690-527320-speed_feat_super_super.jpg)

And he went there in an instant: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/271094-goku_crosses_namek_quick_2_super.gif

http://s103.photobucket.com/user/kinasin/media/271095-goku_crosses_namek_quick_3_super.gif.html

That correponds to someone who's relativistic (he crossed half of a planet that has a similar size to planet Earth at least ... and we know this is true because planet Earth is considered a small planet by Frieza and his father https://www.google.fr/url?sa=i&rct=...FdtxlLLiYu3Lk4lh9yzfPXIw&ust=1491747146210814).
 
@Jeune

I'm sorry, but you are making an awful lot of assumptions and employing a lot of calc stacking in your claims.

And Goku crossing Namek is Sub-Relativistic, not Relativistic like you claim.
 
"This "common knowledge" is false. Almost all of DB's best feats are travel speed."

This is based on simple extrapolation on how their power works. Flight requires continuous Ki usage, even in space for some reason. Thus it wouldn't make sense for them to be using, say, "1,000,000 Ki/s" while flying yet when they're fighting only use "100 Ki" per FTE dodge. Rather, it would be the other way around.

"You can see a jet flying in the sky at supersonic+ speeds at far enough distances, but can't see it if it's close to you."

Ki sensing, as far as I'm aware, doesn't work like just "seeing a distant object", though. You are pinpointing the exact location of something and following it. This is how Piccolo was able to view Goku fighting during the Saiyan Saga even when his eyes couldn't keep up. If he was just sensing a smear of Ki everywhere it wouldn't really be much different from him just looking up to watch the fight.
 
@Roy

its not easy to exactly quantify yes but it can be scaled rather easily from some feats and statements.

@Matthew

what outlier ?
 
@Xcano

I never said that their Travel Speed is faster, only that the best feats are Travel Speed, which isn't 100% correct. I don't intend on making any stupid divide between speeds in Dragon Ball.

And I suppose you would be correct in that notion, but it very much does not scale to the characters' actual speeds. Even Kuririn in the Buu Saga could follow the Universal Genki Dama's ki as it crossed the universe. That doesn't mean he is Massively FTL+.
 
Jeune fou said:
Also if some people here are still sceptical about that ... then there's one travel speed feat that correspond to all that: Base form Goku tried to reach Frieza to fight him (during namek saga). He was at the other size of the planet (confirmed by this manga cover: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/39090/767690-527320-speed_feat_super_super.jpg)
Click to expand...
So that's where the staement come from, it seems weirds since in two occasions it shows that they were at just few kilometers from the ship, and I doubt that they moved half circunference while fought.

Anyway, I was trying to find a size for Namek using these two formulas, and I found that the most realistic radious would be ~6905 km; however, I assumed density a gravity force (Earth's) and used 3 ends (most and least massive start plus our sun's mass).
 
I have moved this to Staff Discussion for obvious reasons. If any regular member has an argument either for or against said downgrades, post it on my wall. Thank you.

As for my stance here I am neutral.
 
@Dragonmasterxyz

alrighty then, i'll see myself out, though i do disagree with this downgrade since we have scaling.
 
Antoniofer said:
Jeune fou said:
Also if some people here are still sceptical about that ... then there's one travel speed feat that correspond to all that: Base form Goku tried to reach Frieza to fight him (during namek saga). He was at the other size of the planet (confirmed by this manga cover: http://media.animevice.com/uploads/3/39090/767690-527320-speed_feat_super_super.jpg)
Click to expand...
So that's where the staement come from, it seems weirds since in two occasions it shows that they were at just few kilometers from the ship, and I doubt that they moved half circunference while fought.
Anyway, I was trying to find a size for Namek using these two formulas, and I found that the most realistic radious would be ~6905 km; however, I assumed density a gravity force (Earth's) and used 3 ends (most and least massive start plus our sun's mass).
Click to expand...
I know it was moved but I wanted to reply to this. I would agree with a radius of 6905 km: that would be similar to planet Earth. Many people often come to similar conclusion considering the gravity is the same on Namek and on Earth. And even if some people come with "King kai's planet argument" planet Namek is most likely at least as big as the Earth because like I said even if planet Earth is a big terrestrial planet in our universe, in DB it is considered a small planet by Frieza and is father.
 
Also most shows do the same thing as DB, characters are just running at really low speeds in a time sensitive situation when they have feats to support them being able to run much faster, to make it simplir to understand "Blank could barely cross X distance in X time" and this logic can be used to downgrade any verse.
 
@Matt

"Even Kuririn in the Buu Saga could follow the Universal Genki Dama's ki as it crossed the universe. That doesn't mean he is Massively FTL+."

Yeah, but that's not the point. He obviously isn't MFTL+. He can't even see someone moving that fast with eyes, much less move that quick. However he can still sense it, which was what I was getting at.

Since they can sense the Ginyu moving MFTL+, but the Death Beam is still too fast for them to sense, then the Death Beam should also be MFTL+.
 
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