DBZ speed downgrade (severe)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@TLT1

Your post is complicated to read, but this has been covered already.

Vs. Raditz Piccolo: 0.072c

Vs. Vegeta Goku: > 0.072c

Kaioken x4: 0.288c

Vs. Ginyu Goku: > 0.288c (I don't accept the x10 scaling because it is only found in the back-cover for the american version of the manga, and it is power level based (Goku going from "9,000" to 90,000).

Kaioken x2: 0.576c

Vs. Freeza Goku: > 0.576c

Kaioken x20: 11.52c

SSJ1: 23.04c

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@TLT1
Your post is complicated to read, but this has been covered already.

Vs. Raditz Piccolo: 0.072c

Vs. Vegeta Goku: > 0.072c

Kaioken x4: 0.288c

Vs. Ginyu Goku: > 0.288c (I don't accept the x10 scaling because it is only found in the back-cover for the american version of the anime, and it is power level based (Goku going from "9,000" to 90,000).

Kaioken x2: 0.576c

Vs. Freeza Goku: > 0.576c

Kaioken x20: 11.52c

SSJ1: 23.04c

Are you absolutely sure about the 10x thing? If so, it doesnt make much difference anyway and leads to FTL+ speed ratings anyway. The question now is, since there is only a 4.34x speed diff between ssj1 goku's conservative speed estimate and the MFTL rating, which dbz character would be the first to get an MFTL rating?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No one, because there are no MFTL feats, only scaling from a 7% Lightspeed feat.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm still heavily against using the 7.2% Lightspeed feat. I'm pretty sure we'd call outlier for a majority of others.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm still heavily against using the 7.2% Lightspeed feat. I'm pretty sure we'd call outlier for a majority of others.

It is bizarre, a feat done in Raditz-Era Dragon Ball is the best until Super.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

I didn't read through this entire thread (yet) so sorry if someone mentioned this already, but I just want to say something about Snake Way. In the manga, the ogre that was talking to Goku about it said something along the lines of "Legend has it that it's 1 million KM long". He said it was a legend, meaning he probably doesn't know the true length. So nothing contradicts the official guides saying it's 1/4th the universe length.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I didn't read through this entire thread (yet) so sorry if someone mentioned this already, but I just want to say something about Snake Way. In the manga, the ogre that was talking to Goku about it said something along the lines of "Legend has it that it's 1 million KM long". He said it was a legend, meaning he probably doesn't know the true length. So nothing contradicts the official guides saying it's 1/4th the universe length.

Everything does.

Unless you want us to seriously buy that Raditz Goku is Massively FTL+.

Snake Way is said to be 1 Million Kilometer long, and that's how large it likely is.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

But he said it was a legend! "Legend" has it that it's 1 million km long. If it's just a legend, then why accept it? Unless there's some other source that says it's that long.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because it is a lot more believable that it is 1,000,000 kilometers than it being 1/4 of the universe.

If you believe the map that says it , then you also have to believe that Emma-Daioh's palace is Multi-Galaxy sized, and Kaioh-Sama's planet is galaxy-sized.

The map is clearly not to scale, and it being that larger contradicts everything.

Also, if it IS 1/4 of the universe, then how the hell do the people in heaven believe it is 1 million kilometers? They know where it starts and where it ends, so if it is 1/4 of the universe they'd be able to tell that 1 million kilometers is bullshit.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Hold on, does the map "say" that it's 1/4 of the universe, or is it just a visual thing? I don't believe the 1 million km either way, but if it's not stated to be 1/4th the universe, then fair enough. I don't accept that either. But if it does, then I don't see why we wouldn't accept it. It doesn't mean Kaio's planet or Emma-Daioh's palace are galaxy size, because I doubt they're visually to scale in that picture.

If it's just a visual thing, then I would consider Snake Way's length to simply be unknown, as the 1 million km thing is just a legend anyway, and it contradicts faster feats.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No it doesn't, people just eyeballed it and said it is equal to 1/4th of the afterlife.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

On second thought, eyeballing it could be justified. The map is meant to visually represent the location of everything, and if it shows Snake Way extending that far, then maybe it is that long. It doesn't mean the planets or palaces are that big, because the sizes shown on the map have nothing to do with location. They're just scaled big enough so that we can see them.

Here's a similar example to what I'm talking about. This Star Wars map perfectly illustrates the distance between locations. The planets are scaled larger so that we can see them, but they're obviously not that big.

http://nathaniel.kims-r-us.net/wp-c...fficial_galactic_map_star_wars_universe_1.jpg

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, the map is clearly not to scale, and once again this contradicts all the information given in the manga proper. The manga says that it is 1,000,000 and this makes sense. If it is light-years wide it wouldn't mesh with anything.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

Who, other than the Ogre, said it was 1 million km long? 1 million km should be out of the question regardless, as that contradicts higher feats.

Again, the map represents location. That's what a map does. It doesn't represent size of whatever the locations are. Plenty of maps do this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Story =/= Feats. A story can have higher feats and lower feats, you can't say that the information given is wrong because you think it contradicts feats. Toriyama wasn't caring about feats when he wrote it.

The map doesn't represent location. It just shows the overall structure of the DB World.

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

It's not just because it contradicts feats. It's also because it says it's a legend, meaning it may not even be true. So if a story says that something "might" be this way, but then is contradicted, that's enough to deem the statement as untrue.

 

[Antoniofer]

Shouldn't the Goku speed in SS (first time) should be 28.8c? It seems like the suggested above it just multiply the one with the kkx20 per 2, or I'm missing an statement?

 

[RadicalMrR]

I made a calc that isnt suspect in the slightest.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RadicalMrR/Cell's_"Feat"

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Shouldn't the Goku speed in SS (first time) should be 28.8c? It seems like the suggested above it just multiply the one with the kkx20 per 2, or I'm missing an statement?

the 28.8c comes from adding in the statement that namek goku was 10x faster than saiyan saga goku, and matt said that it is only from the back of an english manga volume

 

[Antoniofer]

Don't known if had to do with that, but I'm asking about the difference in speed between kkx20 and SS, it should be x2.5, if not them, why would be x2?

 

[Antvasima]

This thread has turned too long for new contributors to catch up. Is anybody willing to create a new thread, where the first post summarises the arguments and conclusions from this discussion?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Would be good, yes.

However with the Classic DB Piccolo Jr. Recalc, I am less opposed to using Piccolo's Moon Feat.

 

[Jeune_fou]

No matter what's your final decision, I would like everyone to keep in mind that Goku became 10 times faster when he reached namek (compared to saiyan saga Goku). This was stated on this manga cover (and it makes sense considering Goku trained under x 100 gravity and blitzed Barta): http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/812k6eQW29L.jpg

Therefore Ginue is at least ten times faster than saiyan saga Goku.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You do know that this claim is power-level based (From "9,000" to 90,000) and is only found in the back cover for an american version of the manga, right?

 

[Ryop]

^same about "frieza in the other side of the planet" but still pepole here using it as actual feat although this contrast the manga

 

[Antoniofer]

The Goku crossing Namek feat was already debunked, Goku and the ship were pretty nearby to the other fighters, so there's no real reason to consider the american cover.

Now, about the Moon burst, not remember the reasons why is considered outlier, but if people is considering the recent calc of Piccolo's laser as support, I should say that it seems kinda odd: the laser could be seen that was shot behind the mountains, not hundreds of kilometers, and in one pic of the island could be see it buildings. So gotta need more pic of the island.

 

[Jeune_fou]

You do know that this claim is power-level based (From "9,000" to 90,000) and is only found in the back cover for an american version of the manga, right?

the manga cover (american cover though so yeah you can wonder if it can be used) isn't only based on power levels. It stated all his stats were multiplied by 10 (not just his "power", speed was mentionned too), and I'm not the only one who used it: in a quite "old" thread (where everyone agreed on "100% final form frieza and SSJ Goku are 28 times FTL") everyone used it including admins.


Anyway when you think about it, Goku being 10 times faster makes sense because he trained under a gravity that was 10 times greater than the gravity on king kai's planet (so what's claimed on the cover isn't only based on power levels).

He also blitzed Barta casually and without using his full power (and Barta was massively faster than Vegeta who gained 2 zenkai boosts ... even if we cannot tell if it increased all his stats linearly we know his speed was greater

http://www.***********.net/dragon-ball/249/7 (here Vegeta blitzed Kiwi who is equal to him during the saiyan saga)

And during their fight, Vegeta forced Goku to use his kaioken 3.

 

[VenomElite]

Why move this to the staff discussion board of various regulars have and are still giving input? It makes it hard to keep track.

 

[Antvasima]

It would probably still be best if a new thread is started, that summarises the conclusions of the old one in the first post.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I should probably do it...

 

[Antvasima]

That would be appreciated.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Made new thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Here is a link to the new thread:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/692634