DBZ God Tier upgrade?

[Read_this_post]

While i am relatively neutral, two people combining their power to destroy two space times is still 2-C. If they were both in seperate universes and they destroyed it individually then it would obviously be a low 2-C feat. But they were both in the same space, threatening to destroy both universes which requires you to destroy the gap between space times along with them. Their combine energy was still emmitting 2-C attack potency and scales to both as a result. Same would be said for two people who combine their might to destroy two solar systems. They would either scale two or slightly below the feat putting those who scale above at mss level.

To put it simply. If champa + beerus = baseline 2-C then anybody who scales more than two times their strength even with that logic would be 2-C via scaling (even though most people who scale below baseline 2-C would be 2-C anyway due to the axis they are breaching). Unless you want to convince me that beerus and champas combine power in that scene >>> whis and the grand priest

The main reason the feat was rejected was because it is a matter feat and not a time feat and only matter destruction.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Both were in the same Universe, and both combined were clearly going to destroy both. It's far more speculative to say that one person would destroy this Universe, while the other destroys the other.

The location is not an argument in the slightest. What does it even have to do with this?

>Regardless - The feat itself cannot be performed by two Low 2-C's by our system.

Then its either 1 of 2 things. People misunderstanding the system or how we treat tier 2 is wrong and needs to be fixed.

>It becomes problematic when you start trying to apply this logic over to 'high-dimensional' feats. Reference our standards of High 3-A. Some shakes a planet - Wouldn't be granted planet level. Someone shakes something infinite in size - They're granted High 3-A. Ones is possible to perform by our system and still work - The other cannot.

Different degrees of infinity are a thing you know. Plus, im pretty sure the High 3-A feats for DBS were debunked because of the World of Void being disproven to be infinite in size, unless im missing something here.

 

[Giygas3]

"The main reason the feat was rejected was because it is a matter feat and not a time feat and only matter destruction. "

This is problematic when you consider that each Universe is regarded as their own space-time. If not, then Zeno should be downgraded. If it's just a matter destruction feat - They could never destroy both if we consider each Universe to be their own space-time. Anyways - They said they were going to destroy it, Which could mean either they're going to destroy just the matter - Or truly all of it. But given the case that Universe in Japanese is regarded all that's - and they say they'll destroy it - instead of leaving it a void such as the Battle of Gods fight.


Yet, considering it needs to destroy two respective space-times to even perform the feat - I think Occam's Razor dictates that time would be involved.

 

[ProudLearner]

Vados said annihilate not destroy.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Giygas3 They could just teleport to the other universe and destroy it. Plus it's a 3-A feat at best because there's no proof that they were going to destroy the space-time.

@Kukui World of Void being infinite was a mistranslation.

 

[Giygas3]

"The location is not an argument in the slightest. What does it even have to do with this? "

You said one God of Destruction would destroy one Universe, while the other would destroy the other... Which is very speculative when they're in the same Universe - So their power both would have destroyed both from i the Universe they're in.

"People misunderstanding the system or how we treat tier 2 is wrong and needs to be fixed. "

I'd say it's wrong, but it's fine for fiction standards.

"Different degrees of infinity are a thing you know."

I know - But not in this given case.

" im pretty sure the High 3-A feats for DBS were debunked because of the World of Void being disproven to be infinite in size,"

I'm not talking about the World of the Void. I'm just giving an analogy from some random example.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yet, considering it needs to destroy two respective space-times to even perform the feat - I think Occam's Razor dictates that time would be involved.

The problem is, Occams Razor wouldnt apply to what makes sense in this situation but what we are explicitly shown from their fight. And Beerus and Champa were most definitely not affecting space-time in their battle. The best they did before Whis and Vados intervined was make a table slowly turn to dust, which is affecting only matter.

Why should we need to assume they were effecting more than just matter when the scene itself flat out shows us what they were effecting? Its more speculative to assume space-time was also effected when not a shred of evidence even implies this. Meanwhile, we know for a fact matter was affected because both of them were flat out destroying it.

 

[ProudLearner]

@Kukui World of Void being infinite was a mistranslation.

If it was a mistranslation then why profiles still use the word infinite or infinitly?

Sorrry for the derail.

 

[Giygas3]

"Vados said annihilate not destroy. "

They mean the exact same...

"They could just teleport to the other universe and destroy it. "

Could, sure. But they don't allude to that being the case - so if you actually want to make that your case, the Burden of Proof is on you.

"Plus it's a 3-A feat at best because there's no proof that they were going to destroy the space-time"

Refer to: You have to be affecting Space-Time to destroy two respective space-time Universe, when you're performing this feat in one particular Universe.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@ProudLearner Because they need to be updated.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

you're forgetting something important at a distance, they used example on 5-B so I'll use it.

someone capable of destroying only the Earth fighting against someone also capable of destroying the Earth could never destroy Earth and Mars fighting being only 5-B, both characters would have to be 5-A, because the planets are not next to each other but millions of kilometers, so they are individually capable of generating interplanetary energy.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Giygas3 No you don't when you can warp between universes.

 

[Giygas3]

"makes sense in this situation but what we are explicitly shown from their fight. "

I'm not very convinced. How would one show Space-Time is being destroyed, instead of just the matter?

"Beerus and Champa were most definitely not affecting space-time in their battle. "

If they're just destroying the matter - Then the feat they're doing is impossible... Because you cannot affect two respective space-times in one Universe, if you're just destroying the matter. You must be affecting time as well to affect the other Universe, by our tier system standards.

 

[Overlord775]

@Shadow

GoDs can't teleport between universes

 

[ProudLearner]

@ProudLearner Because they need to be updated.

Well its been over a year so it problably means there are people who disagrees with it.

@Giygas3

They are synonyms to each other but they have different contex for a sentence.

 

[Giygas3]

"No you don't when you can warp between universes. "

You need to prove that's actually what's happening... There is no indication that they're going to destroy Universe 7, then warp to the other Universe to destroy that one.

 

[Read_this_post]

If they're just destroying the matter - Then the feat they're doing is impossible... Because you cannot affect two respective space-times in one Universe, if you're just destroying the matter. You must be affecting time as well to affect the other Universe, by our tier system standards.

Just so you know, many characters are universal for affecting multiple universes like this. The wiki does follow the standards that it needs to be space time related.

 

[AguilaR101]

It's best if people directly focus on wether or not we should consider the resul of their fight a 2-C feat , scaling arguments can come later.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

You can show space-time being destroyed by having the area begin warping as to show space-time being distorted and stretching to its breaking point. Of course nothing proves this in the Beerus vs Champa fight as it isn't shown nor stated.

 

[Giygas3]

"They are synonyms to each other but they have different contex for a sentence."

Sure, but why should in this context we should think of them being equivalent?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>I'm not very convinced. How would one show Space-Time is being destroyed, instead of just the matter?

By turning it into a void of...well...nothingness? And/or having a stated confirmation that time and space is being ripped apart, destroyed, etc. And we have none of that in this fight between Beerus and Champa.

EDIT: Also what Shadow said. And there are countless examples of this happening in fiction when space-time is being affected/destroyed.

>If they're just destroying the matter - Then the feat they're doing is impossible... Because you *cannot* affect two respective space-times in one Universe, if you're *just* destroying the matter. You *must* be affecting time as well to affect the other Universe.

Not unless the universes in DBS share the same space time, making the DB Multiverse just one large space-time continuum. Which im now starting to suspect from this.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

"No you don't when you can warp between universes. "

OK, WHY would they do this?

It's one thing to say that if two GoDs fight, it will destory the universe that they are fighting in. It's another to say that they will destory one universe with their fight and then warp to another to same thing over.

That makes no sense.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

"No you don't when you can warp between universes. "

You need to prove that's actually what's happening... There is no indication that they're going to destroy Universe 7, then warp to the other Universe to destroy that one.

Them being a threat to their respective universes implies that they can only destroy one universe individually.

Also Occam's Razor when there's no indication that space-time is being affected.

 

[Giygas3]

"Just so you know, many characters are universal for affecting multiple universes like this."

Such as?


"You can show space-time being destroyed by having the area begin warping as to show space-time being distorted and stretching to its breaking point. "

Fair Enough. Now how can you just being destroying the matter, but somehow affect another Universe with its own space-time outside of the Univerese they're doing said feat on?

 

[ProudLearner]

"They are synonyms to each other but they have different contex for a sentence."
Sure, but why should in this context we should think of them being equivalent?

For example: When detroying a car they may be portion left out while annihilate completely just leaves nothing.

 

[AguilaR101]

You need to prove that's actually what's happening... There is no indication that they're going to destroy Universe 7, then warp to the other Universe to destroy that one.

Them being a threat to their respective universes implies that they can only destroy one universe individually.

Occam's razor would suggest that they were indeed going to destroy both universes from their current position since neither have the ability to warp between universes on their own, and neither Whis or Vados would help them in doing so.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

gods of destruction alone are stronger than zamasu which is low 2-C, and bills and champa when fighting, fight with full power, it does not make sense only the matter to be destroyed in the fight, you would be stating that zamasu >>>>>>two enraged gods of destruction.

and it does not have as only the matter to be destroyed because the energy would have to break the dimensional wall to arrive at the other universe

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

gods of destruction alone are stronger than zamasu which is low 2-C, and bills and champa when fighting, fight with full power, it does not make sense only matter to be destroyed in the fight, you would be stating that zamasu >>>>>>two enraged gods of destruction.
and it does not have as only the matter to be destroyed because the energy would have to break the dimensional wall to arrive at the other universe

1.) Neither Beerus or Champa were stronger than IZ at this point. IZ wasnt a thing yet.

2.) The only reason Beerus, Champa and any GoD period is Low 2-C at all is because of sheer scaling. None of them have the actual capability of destroying space-time.

3.) They wouldnt have to destroy any dimensionals to arrive to other universes if, again, all the said universes share the same space-time and reside in the same space-time continuum.

 

[Giygas3]

"By turning it into a void of...well...nothingness?"

So you're going to have some room looking like a void of nothingness, while the area they didn't affect look normal? Realistically speaking, do you really think the animators would try to do this? But I guess that's *one* way you could show it if you really wanted to.

"time and space is being ripped apart"

Okay. But Universe in Japanese already implies this, so it seems a little needless to say this. Can you name me some other anime which has 2-C or Low 2-C even, but explicitely states they're destroying Space-Time? If so, I'll change my mind.

"Them being a threat to their respective universes implies that they can only destroy one universe individually. "

Sure?

"Also Occam's Razor when there's no indication that space-time is being affected."

When I say I'm going to destroy the Universe - When Universe is defined as Time-Space already encompassing it. Then Occam's Razor *Truly* does decide that Space-Time is being involved, and *not* just the matter.

 

[Giygas3]

"When detroying a car they may be portion left out while annihilate completely just leaves nothing. "

I'm talking about in the context of the quite that Vados gave - Why should we expect destroy to mean anything differently than just being Annihilated?

 

[Kepekley23]

> m honestly surprised this isnt even a discussion rule.

It actually is. I was the one who wrote it, so I would remember, though I am surprised it hasn't been pointed out yet.

• "Also, do not try to upgrade the Gods of Destruction to 2-C based on the outcome of a hypothetical Champa and Beerus fight destroying their respective universes, as the statement likely referred to them destroying all the matter within their universes, with no proof of space-time being affected."

Now, it being a discussion rule doesn't mean new arguments can't come to light and prove the previous consensus wrong, but as far as I'm aware there is nothing new being discussed here.

 

[Giygas3]

@Kep Can you link me to a thread in which was using these arguments?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

> m honestly surprised this isnt even a discussion rule.
It actually is. I was the one who wrote it, so I would remember, though I am surprised it hasn't been pointed out yet.

• "Also, do not try to upgrade the Gods of Destruction to 2-C based on the outcome of a hypothetical Champa and Beerus fight destroying their respective universes, as the statement likely referred to them destroying all the matter within their universes, with no proof of space-time being affected."

Now, it being a discussion rule doesn't mean new arguments can't come to light and prove the previous consensus wrong, but as far as I'm aware there is nothing new being discussed here.

Well I was away from this site for a while so I most likely just forgot then.

And what I bolded is something I never disagreed with. If something is new, the discussion shouldnt be stopped. But if its exactly the same thing, then it should.

 

[AguilaR101]

3.) They wouldnt have to destroy any dimensionals to arrive to other universes if, again, all the said universes share the same space-time and reside in the same space-time continuum.

That is not currently accepted as far as I am aware, Zeno is 2-C for destroying all the universes and he wouldn't be if they weren't considered separate space-times.

But I'd like admins to stop pussy-footing around this issue and provide clear reasoning as to why Zeno should be rated 2-C if it's really true that all universes are in the same space-time.

 

[ProudLearner]

Well I guesed this has be closed since its against the rules...

Such a shame that Toei or Toriyama never explain things and keep it simple.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

 

[Antvasima]

I will close this thread then.