DBS revisions (please read entire OP)

[Stefano4444]

"The universe becoming an empty void" definitely doesn't sound like space-time destruction, just the universe becoming a vacuum with its space-time still intact.

It can be interpreted in both say, as space-time isn't the same thing as nothingless.

 

[DMB_1]

In many languages, "Void" and "Vacuum" are the same exact word. Don't know about Japanese though.

 

[InfiniteBlack123]

I would also like to add that Whis said that he was powerless to stop the destruction and Whis is a being who can casually effect space and time.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Akreious Goku isn't exactly the smartest person out there. How would he know exactly how powerful Infinite Zamasu is? You might have a point if his attacks did some damage to him but they do absolutely nothing.

@Stefano4444 That's just going by the highest possible interpretation when it just mentions the universe becoming an empty void, not busting the actual space-time. The space-time can still be intact with all of the matter gone and that statement still holds up.

 

[Dragomer]

@Akreious Goku isn't exactly the smartest person out there. How would he know exactly how powerful Infinite Zamasu is? You might have a point if his attacks did some damage to him but they do absolutely nothing.
@Stefano4444 That's just going by the highest possible interpretation when it just mentions the universe becoming an empty void, not busting the actual space-time. The space-time can still be intact with all of the matter gone and that statement still holds up.

Goku in general isn't the smartest but when it come to anything fight related and ki related, he is freaking God Tiers so he clearly know what he is saying.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I would also like to add that Whis said that he was powerless to stop the destruction and Whis is a being who can casually effect space and time.

By this logic anyone with space-time manipulation is Low 2-C. Show him destroying a whole space-time continuum or it doesn't hold up.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This seems like a good argument to me imo. There's also Goku being confidant that if they were at full strength, they could've beaten Infinite Zamasu before he became 2-C without Zeno.

Yes I did want to point out earlier that Goku Vegeta and Trunks couldn't harm Zamasu but they could physically interact with them. Their Ki blasts had an effect on Zamasu's body because it actually bounced back quite violently. The reasons why no one could do damage was because he's a fusion level foe that had gotten two boosts in strength during his fight with Vegito, his immortal Regenerationn and everyone was very low on energy. Not to mention it was never stated that Mugen Zamasu was any stronger than Corruption Zanmasu and they even survive Zanmasu's attacks that were meant to kill.

 

[Dragomer]

This seems like a good argument to me imo. There's also Goku being confidant that if they were at full strength, they could've beaten Infinite Zamasu before he became 2-C without Zeno.

Yes I did want to point out earlier that Goku Vegeta and Trunks couldn't harm Zamasu but they could physically interact with them. Their Ki blasts had an effect on Zamasu's body because it actually bounced back quite violently. The reasons why no one could do damage was because he's a fusion level foe that had gotten two boosts in strength during his fight with Vegito, his immortal Regenerationn and everyone was very low on energy. Not to mention it was never stated that Mugen Zamasu was any stronger than Corruption Zanmasu and they even survive Zanmasu's attacks that were meant to kill.

Damn, that's actualy a very good argument i never though about, they DID interact with Infinit Zamasu and survived his attack.

 

[HST_Master]

@Hst master Goku's word can't be taken at face value. His ki blasts do zero damage to Infinite Zamasu, he was simply overconfident in his own abilities.

Goku is rarely Overconfident in his own abilities. Not to mention he specifically said if they were at full strength and had a Senzu, he could fight Zamasu. Contextwise both he and Vegeta were still exhausted from Vegito's Final Kamehameha.

 

[InfiniteBlack123]

By this logic anyone with space-time manipulation is Low 2-C. Show him destroying a whole space-time continuum or it doesn't hold up.


When he does his temporal do over, it creates a completely new space time continuum complete with a another Zeno. And in a sense he has donse this 3 times in Super. Once in RoF, Once when Zamasu killed Gowasu and once again to give Future Trunks a new timeline. Keeping in mind a timeline consist of more than 1 Universe.

 

[ProudLearner]

When he does his temporal do over, it creates a completely new space time continuum complete with a another Zeno. And in a sense he has donse this 3 times in Super. Once in RoF, Once when Zamasu killed Gowasu and once again to give Future Trunks a new timeline. Keeping in mind a timeline consist of more than 1 Universe.

When Whis reversed time it does not create new time lines. By that logic, everytime Beerus destroys Sun or Moons in his home world it will create another time lines.

The time-line that Trunks lives now is the one the Beerus made by killing Present Zamasu. Which Whis travel there to confirm him that he could leave there and that Beerus was the cause of its creation.

Only mortals who meddled with Time-travel will create new time lines. Although I don't know if universe 12 has those downfalls.

Only the angels or Supreme Kai with Time-ring can time travel without causing it to duplicate.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I agree with the 3-As of DBS being upgraded to Low 2-C. It has never truly made sense, in my mind, for universal feats to be treated as everything within the universe, rather than the entire space-time of the universe.

Logically speaking, while I can consider some argument for BoG and RoF Goku (and those that scale) as being 3-A...I can't picture why SSB X10 Goku (and those that scale) wouldn't scale to Low 2-C, as Beerus was clearly concerned with Goku's progress.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It has never truly made sense, in my mind, for universal feats to be treated as everything within the universe, rather than the entire space-time of the universe.

Especially when is comes to DB.

@Everyone, we all have to realize that in DBS "destroy the universe" is the most simple statement they use. The actual reason these characters are 3-A is because we never knew what type of universal they meant. We now know that each universe has its own space time and when they refer to universe they show the bubble, which is the whole space time continuum. It's also been stated over and over again that Goku and Beerus were going to Annihilate the whole universe. Just because characters are using energy to destroy the universe doesn't make it 3-A that's nonsensical.

 

[Xerkser500]

Just going to say this:

Whether overconfident or just simply not looking at the situation fully, just because Goku says that he could have fought IZ when given a Sensu doesnt automatically mean he actually can. This is less about Goku either not taking everything into account or him being some idiot, but more so that we need actual feats and evidence to suggest so, a character claim about one's own abilities is not enough.

And for those using "well Goku wasnt overconfident in the ToP", you do know this is after Goku and co. fight Infinite Zamasu right? Don't use a later instance to try and support a former one.

 

[PaChi2]

Tfw Zamasu-chan is now Sonic-chan.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Like I said before, Mugen Zamasu is a fusion level character. A combined attack from Goku, Vegeta and Trunks was able to put a dent for les than a second, meaning they're actually able to potentially harm him with energy attacks if they were at full strength. They even hold back an attack from him.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The whole Buuhan point is irrelevant since it's Anime Filler. The first character to demonstrably affect space-time on a universal scale was Infinite Zamasu which was far ahead of any of our heroes Goku vs Casual Beerus' feat was only 3-A.

So I am against this upgrade.

 

[Dragomer]

The whole Buuhan point is irrelevant since it's Anime Filler. The first character to demonstrably affect space-time on a universal scale was Infinite Zamasu which was far ahead of any of our heroes Goku vs Casual Beerus' feat was only 3-A.
So I am against this upgrade.

'Far Ahead' nothing indicate he was any stronger than Fused Zamasu, who was stronger but not to the point Goku couldn't break his halo, if he was so far ahead of them, they would have been wiped alongside the humans.

And Goku's feat against Beerus being 3-A is purely interpretation, using the japanese definition of universe + the fact it affected places not physicaly connected to the mortal universe make a low 2-C interpretation completly possible.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Dragomer The realms aren't separate space-times and there's overall no evidence that space-time was being affected. You need to show that it is, otherwise it's just 3-A.

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragomer The realms aren't separate space-times and there's overall no evidence that space-time was being affected. You need to show that it is, otherwise it's just 3-A.

The affecting seperate realm debunk the 'purely physical destruction' because otherwise it would have been stopped by the lack of physical connection and if it can't be said to mean a purely physical destruction 100% then the low 2-C interpretation of the feat works so you can't use it to say no to a low 2-C upgrade because it's a 3-A feat, that would be circular reasoning.

So no, i wasn't saying they were seperated space time, that would be 2-C, not low 2-C.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Destroying all of Universe 7 was more so destroying multiple bodies of finite space; not infinite or having time.

 

[Dragomer]

Destroying all of Universe 7 was more so destroying multiple bodies of finite space; not infinite or having time.

If we don't consider U7 as it's own Space Time Continuum, then Zamasu wouldn't be low 2-C either and Zeno wouldn't be 2-C.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

"Would have been stopped by the lack of physical connection."

"Not saying they were separated space-time."

If you admit to them not being separate space-times then your first sentence makes no sense. You don't need to destroy the space-time to affect those realms and there's no evidence of space-time being affected so it's not Low 2-C.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

How many times do I have to say that it's not just about feats but their meaning of universal destruction. When they mean the whole universe, then that time space bubble is gone.

 

[Elizhaa]

I found this evidences these from this blog:

The Mortal Universe being stated as being infinite in size, multiple times. The size of Heaven is the same size as the universe. The Demon Realm is comparable in size to the mortal universe. The Kaioshin Realm is 1/10th the size of the Macrocosm. It is impossible through regular movement/methods to move from the Living World to the Afterlife, or from the Afterlife to the Kaioshin Realm,

These evidence that I have proveded supported that the realm's distance btween each is infinite which can also support the notion of them having different space-time. What these shows at least is that space is needed to affect to destroy the other realm of universe 7.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

They're not gonna listen to the different space times thing.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Elizhaa First scan only says endless which =/= infinite. Second link doesn't work.

It's impossible for someone to travel through a wall but they could still break a wall with enough force.

 

[Dragomer]

"Would have been stopped by the lack of physical connection."
"Not saying they were separated space-time."

If you admit to them not being separate space-times then your first sentence makes no sense. You don't need to destroy the space-time to affect those realms and there's no evidence of space-time being affected so it's not Low 2-C.

My sentence make complet sense, look at a goddamn DB map and tell where the hell the Kaioshin realm is physicaly connected to the mortal universe.

You actualy need to be able to destroy 1 space time to reach those places because once again, they are not physicaly connected so a 'just the matter inside the universe' kind of destruction wouldn't reach them, you're misstaking that with 2-C which is mutliple space time continuum.

Also the very definition of universe in japanese is litteraly how we define low 2-C

So you can stop with the circular reasoning, it's not working.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

At 1:50 Whis said Zeno could destroy an entire universe while show the space time continuum.

In the BoG fight it was stated that they would annihilate the entire universe. The statement in BoG has a lot of emphasis on destruction. More emphasis than Whis' Zeno statement.

There's also only ONE single meaning for universe in DBS and that's the image above which is a space time continuum.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Dragonmer Yeah no, that's just using the highest possible interpretation.

"They're not physically connected", neither are the planets in our solar system. This doesn't mean much.

"The universe becoming an empty void" would only support the notion of it becoming a vacuum with the space-time still intact.

"It's not working" meanwhile you have yet to show proper evidence.

 

[Dragomer]

Can't you resize the picture ? it's a bit too big.

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragonmer Yeah no, that's just using the highest possible interpretation.
"They're not physically connected", neither are the planets in our solar system. This doesn't mean much.

"The universe becoming an empty void" would only support the notion of it becoming a vacuum with the space-time still intact.

"It's not working" meanwhile you have yet to show proper evidence.

And 3-A is using the lowest possible interpretation while still having an obvious flaw of lacking an actual physical connection.

Also no, the hightest possible interpretation would be direct 2-C.

Except the planete in our solar systeme are connected by the fabric of space, something not present in the DB map, they are completly no physicaly linked.

No, it litteraly support the other way around, remember the last time they used void ? it was to describe the world of void, a timeless, spaceless place.

Say the guy who's entier point revolved around something proven false by the first DB map you can find on google and circular reasoning, the feat isn't 3-A just because you decided to see it that way.

 

[The_Causality]

Near to the level of a Crusade

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Fusion Zamasu actually did merge with space-time across all 12 universes and began merging with other timelines; and it's heavily implied that even while merging with other timelines that he'd be inferior to Zeno no matter what. That is the reason for the Tier 7 ratings and there isn't proof the mortal universe and the afterlife having separate timelines. The Infinite sized stuff was also discussed and treated as hyperboles.

 

[Dragomer]

Fusion Zamasu actually did merge with space-time across all 12 universes and began merging with other timelines; and it's heavily implied that even while merging with other timelines that he'd be inferior to Zeno no matter what. That is the reason for the Tier 7 ratings and there isn't proof the mortal universe and the afterlife having separate timelines.

That's not the goddamn point, you keep bringing up 2-C standard for a low 2-C upgrade, if Heaven and the mortal universe were considered their own space time continuum, we wouldn't be talking about low 2-C, we'd be talking about 2-C.

Seriously can people actualy read and think about what is proposed instead of copy pasting the latest circular reasoning against 2-C upgrade when we are not talking about that ?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Dragomer The planets are connected by the fabric of space-time just like the realms, otherwise they'd be in separate space-times.

Yeah the World of Void being "timeless" yet they can still tell time in there and low tier characters like Krillin can move in it. Aside from that, it's called extrapolation.

No, you have still yet to give evidence that proves me wrong.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Just pointing out it doesn't even have to be the afterlife. The Kaioshin Realm is another dimension outside the space-time continuum if you don't accept the afterlife being different timelines.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Where is it stated Kaioshin Realm is outside of space-time? Not to mention there's no proof of Universe 6 having its own space-time separate from Universe 7 either.

 

[Xerkser500]

My sentence make complet sense, look at a goddamn DB map and tell where the hell the Kaioshin realm is physicaly connected to the mortal universe.

_____________________________________________________________________

Also the very definition of universe in japanese is litteraly how we define low 2-C

Going by the logic I bolded out, every single verse that has universal destruction from japanese subs needs to be Low 2-C too, making 3-A a near pointless tier in general.

Also, unless I missed something, the map of DB isn't an argument for anything. The Kaioshin Realm is only separated from the living universe, not Universe 7 in general.

 

[Dragomer]

@Dragomer The planets are connected by the fabric of space-time just like the realms, otherwise they'd be in separate space-times.
Yeah the World of Void being "timeless" yet they can still tell time in there and low tier characters like Krillin can move in it. Aside from that, it's called extrapolation.

No, you have still yet to give evidence that proves me wrong.

No, they are connected by space, you can have dimension seperated by space but still within the same space time continuum, that's basic.

They litteraly have a physical object moved by the Grand Priest's power to tell time and use a god's way of mesuring time, said gods who are used to cross between different space time continuum, we have no indication time is going on, don't talk like they were using a random watch to say when to stop the tournament.

Krillin can move in it because once again, DB never considered 3-A and low 2-C different and doesn't take dimensional tiering into account at all like numerous other show, DB is just a vers where a timeless, spaceless void doesn't have any special effect that would depend on powers.

No, it's called bulshit, you can't extrapolate a different meaning of Void when it can mean both and the only other exemple of it being used was to refer to the exact opposite of what you're trying to say.

yeah, yeah, keep repeating that, it will become true maybe.