DBH Revision?

[Thedoctor]

there are also spacetime barriers between the living world, otherworld itself, heaven, hell and the kaioshin realm, in the manga it's stated time moves differently in otherworld and toriyama wrote the guidebooks that described the cosmology of dragon ball

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

wouldn't a better idea be to make a very detailed cosmology blog with a novel's worth of an explanation and scans? Then propose this idea again?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

DDM's only arguments against it were things like "Zamasu was appearing in the main timeline, so he must have been merging with spacetime too" (Which still doesn't mean that Universe 7 itself is a spacetime continuum, just that Zamasu's influence was affecting spacetime and thus seeping into other timelines), or "Toriyama explicitly mentions that there are space-time barriers between the 12 universes" (Which I'd like to see scans for), meanwhile AKM didn't even make an argument against it to begin with, as far as I've seen, and just said "Stop overthinking, DB's cosmology is 2-C, and that's all there is to it."

The former could potentially be something, and the latter doesn't hold up at all. So, yeah, I'm bringing up that subject again.

This is exactly why that discussion shouldn’t have been closed so soon.

We have no official consensus on how to treat the cosmology that’s actually written down somewhere so we don’t need to keep re-asking the same crap over and over.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

there are also spacetime barriers between the living world, otherworld itself, heaven, hell and the kaioshin realm, in the manga it's stated time moves differently in otherworld and toriyama wrote the guidebooks that described the cosmology of dragon ball

This was already addressed to not matter at all.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This is exactly why that discussion shouldn’t have been closed so soon.

We have no official consensus on how to treat the cosmology that’s actually written down somewhere so we don’t need to keep re-asking the same crap over and over.

This is very true. I’ve pointed this out multiple times but people still act like close minded keks on both sides. No one knows how to act when it comes to this friggin verse. Keep in mind that the wiki treated the afterlives as 3-A separate continuums, then 3-A again, then low 2-C.
These poor DBS standards are getting ripped apart and slammed back together and know one knows what a proper conclusion should be.

 

[CR_Catinho]

Sorry if I'm bringing back an old debate, but that does sound pretty strange, given how I could've sworn that we all agreed to not treat the individual universes as separate spacetimes anymore in the thread you've made regarding the standards for Low 2-C. Mostly because of how Zeno destroying Trunks' world (And killing Zamasu along with it) clearly didn't destroy past, present and future, seeing as how Whis still could go back in time to a period where it wasn't erased yet,

no he erased the entire timeline , at the begining of the arc there are 5 time rings , when beerus hakais zamasu he creates the 6th , then zeno erases trunks timeline , so there should be 5 left , but at the end we see gowasu adding the time ring corresponding to the timeline whis made for trunks and Mai and we see that there are 6 left .

so if zeno didn't nuke the timeline there would be 7 rings left instead of 6

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And for the record, I don’t give a rats ass if the verse ends up as 3-A or Low 2-C / 2-C in cosmology. Whatever is proven to work is what the result is.

But my gripe is that the official result isn’t properly written somewhere to prevent these confusing discussions on the cosmology from appearing again, and again, and again, and again.

 

[Orange]

I think we should revise the entire dbz, dbs, universe 7 cosmology imo

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

But my gripe is that the official result isn’t properly written somewhere to prevent these confusing discussions on the cosmology from appearing again, and again, and again, and again.

This is true

 

[CR_Catinho]

And for the record, I don’t give a rats ass if the verse ends up as 3-A or Low 2-C / 2-C in cosmology. Whatever is proven to work is what the result is.

But my gripe is that the official result isn’t properly written somewhere to prevent these confusing discussions on the cosmology from appearing again, and again, and again, and again.

couldn't agree more

 

[Giygas3]

"Mostly because of how Zeno destroying Trunks' world (And killing Zamasu along with it) clearly didn't destroy past, present and future, seeing as how Whis still could go back in time to a period where it wasn't erased yet"

Thing is, Future Trunk's timeline isn't just, "the future" relative to main timeline. It's a completely separate alternate world. So, destroying it and its past, present, and future will have no affect towards the main timeline or any other Timeline. This applies equally towards what Whis was going to do; Travel into an arbitrary point into the future created before the whole fighting with Zamasu started and seal him; creating a new Alternate world. It's like what Trunk's does to the past, but this time, Whis is applying this for the future.

" Which still doesn't mean that Universe 7 itself is a spacetime continuum, just that Zamasu's influence was affecting spacetime and thus seeping into other timelines),"

What? Universe 7 itself is still a spacetime continuum. The argument was towards if it has a separate Space-Time towards the other Universes, or the whole timeline is just one big spacetime continuum, with U7 still being a Universal size spacetime continuum.

For the arguments for the separate Space-Times for each Universe, you'd just have to read the thread. The main evidence that I provided was for Instant Transmission.

This thread is confusing though. What's with this whole, "Destroying past, present, and future" thing being talked about towards Low 2-C? And doing the same for an imbedded multiple Space-Time being... Low 1-C?

 

[Thedoctor]

there is clear cosmology that's as legit as you can get and it's brought up every time but they shoot it down every time, it's a joke how bad they are with this verse, super goku rightfully should be 2-C but he's not

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

no he erased the entire timeline , at the begining of the arc there are 5 time rings , when beerus hakais zamasu he creates the 6th , then zeno erases trunks timeline , so there should be 5 left , but at the end we see gowasu adding the time ring corresponding to the timeline whis made for trunks and Mai and we see that there are 6 left .

so if zeno didn't nuke the timeline there would be 7 rings left instead of 6

Ohh that’s right. Whis went to a different timeline to make sure Trunks and Mai could have a safe timeline to live in. As a result of him messing with time, of course there’d be 6. Lol this whole time I thought the time ring wasn’t destroyed but I was wrong because it wasn’t shown on screen like the manga. That just works in my favor tbh.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

wouldn't a better idea be to make a very detailed cosmology blog with a novel's worth of an explanation and scans? Then propose this idea again?

I think this is the best option is to have a cosmology blog for DBX and DBH and maybe DBS.

It would answer a lot of questions too, because as someone who no longer follows the DB series. I am curious what evidence, and scans are being used to say a single timeline in DBS is a 2-C construct or how something like Universe 7 is a 2-C construct.

 

[Giygas3]

@Zamasu Ah, I never realized that.

But how do you explain Zeno's extra guards being there in the anime?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Zamasu Ah, I never realized that.

But how do you explain Zeno's extra guards being there in the anime?

Textbook example of a plot hole. We never see Goku and Trunks go back for the guards lmao. Or they could just be extra guards present Zeno has. You better be trolling with this question LMFAOAOAO.

 

[Giygas3]

@Zamasu_Chan Haha, well. I guess no one will ever know! Besides myself, of course.

But in all seriousness, I think an official cosmology blog for this and linked to the main Dragon Ball site would be a great idea. I proposed the idea to AKM, and I suppose he was ok with the idea. After this thread is done with, would you or anyone else like to make it?

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

Possible dbh upgrade is this my birthday

 

[VinnyXD]

This is exactly why that discussion shouldn’t have been closed so soon.

We have no official consensus on how to treat the cosmology that’s actually written down somewhere so we don’t need to keep re-asking the same crap over and over.

We agreed on this and turn into a downgrade thread.

People are to quick to upgrade or downgrade this verse

 

[CR_Catinho]

@Zamasu Ah, I never realized that.

But how do you explain Zeno's extra guards being there in the anime?

Because the guards were in the zeno palace which is transcendent over the multiverse

 

[CR_Catinho]

Ohh that’s right. Whis went to a different timeline to make sure Trunks and Mai could have a safe timeline to live in. As a result of him messing with time, of course there’d be 6. Lol this whole time I thought the time ring wasn’t destroyed but I was wrong because it wasn’t shown on screen like the manga. That just works in my favor tbh.

XD i thought y'all knew this already

 

[sanicspood]

couldnt this be renamed to possible low 1-c upgrade?

 

[Orange]

So, is this getting rejected,. Or we are going to do a massive revision for dbz cosmology?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This is actually not true at all. Whis went to a completely different timeline. He even said that there would be 2 Mais and 2 Trunks.

Whis directly says that he'd go back to the past of their world, but I guess you and the others up there do make a good counterpoint to that, though I still have some gripes with saying he went to a random timeline that just happened to look like Trunks', given that scan's existence. If you explain this, I can concede on that point.

Second temporal dimension?

Yeah. Arguing for an overarching flow of time which encompasses multiple smaller timelines within itself and exists independently of them is just arguing for the existence of a higher temporal dimension which the Dragon Ball Multiverse exists in, and this is one of the reasons that make choosing between "The 12 universes are all in the same spacetime and the timeline is just Low 2-C" and "The 12 universes are all independent spacetime continuums and the timeline as a whole is a 5-D space" a bit of an arbitrary matter, in my view, but I do believe the wiki usually goes for the low-end interpretation in cases like this, unless some piece of evidence manages to tip the balance towards one or the other.

For the arguments for the separate Space-Times for each Universe, you'd just have to read the thread. The main evidence that I provided was for Instant Transmission.

What thread, exactly? The one I linked, you mean?

This thread is confusing though. What's with this whole, "Destroying past, present, and future" thing being talked about towards Low 2-C? And doing the same for an imbedded multiple Space-Time being... Low 1-C?

The whole reason for why Low 2-C is above 3-A to begin with is that a spacetime continuum basically contains an uncountably infinite number of 3-dimensional cross-sections (Infinitely small lower-dimensional slices of it), each of which correspond to the spatial volume of the universe at a given moment, and to qualify for that, you'd have to destroy the universe through all of time. Some people just only came to realize that recently, apparently. The argument for Low 1-C is basically a generalization of that, but for a larger flow of time which holds 4-D timelines as its cross-sections instead.

 

[CR_Catinho]

Whis directly says that he'd go back to the past of their world, but I guess you and the others up there do make a good counterpoint to that, though I still have some gripes with saying he went to a random timeline that just happened to look like Trunks', given that scan's existence. If you explain this, I can concede on that point.

I covered that in my time ring explanation in case you missed it

no he erased the entire timeline , at the begining of the arc there are 5 time rings , when beerus hakais zamasu he creates the 6th , then zeno erases trunks timeline , so there should be 5 left , but at the end we see gowasu adding the time ring corresponding to the timeline whis made for trunks and Mai and we see that there are 6 left .

so if zeno didn't nuke the timeline there would be 7 rings left instead of 6

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Also according to AKM himself if something is call a universe then the default assumption for the entirety of its structure is low 2-C.
Well in Daizenshuu 4 the living universe is straight up stated to resemble our reality, and being based on an actual universe. It even says it’s supposed to be like other sci-fi universe. Not to mention this licensed guide straight up says other world is entirely separate reality.
Lastly this is an almost laughable point. Whis doesn’t know if the entirety of the timeline is destroyed. Even if I’m wrong and Whis knew, it’d be pretty stupid of him to think he could go to the past of an entire timeline if it was stated to be destroyed entirely. Whis also said he believes it’s possible, meaning he’s not 100% sure.
Anyway a cosmology blog is an order. Maybe I should make it lol.

EDIT: Sorry if this is a little off topic, I started typing this a while ago and I had to suddenly do something while I was typing this up.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Also according to AKM himself if something is call a universe then the default assumption for the entirety of its structure is low 2-C.

The default assumption is Low 2-C until something contradicts that, and I would say that the 12 Universes having alternate counterparts in other timelines counts as one under the current standards, at least, since proposing something that essentially equals a higher temporal dimension is a pretty huge claim that will naturally be placed under much stricter scrutiny befitting of a higher tier. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and blah blah blah.

I covered that in my time ring explanation in case you missed it

Yeah, I didn't miss it. I just have an issue with that interpretation in light of this statement in particular, like I said up there, so an explanation would be nice.

Even if I’m wrong and Whis knew, it’d be pretty stupid of him to think he could go to the past of an entire timeline if it was stated to be destroyed entirely. Whis also said he believes it’s possible, meaning he’s not 100% sure.

That doesn't answer any of my doubts. You're basically saying that Whis' statement was wrong because the timeline was destroyed, even though my argument is that this statement means that the timeline was not destroyed to begin with. Whis also proceeded to restore Trunks' world just as he said he would, so him being wrong based on the fact he mentioned it as a possibility would go against what the work itself presents.

 

[Giygas3]

@Ultima_Reality "I still have some gripes with saying he went to a random timeline that just happened to look like Trunks', given that scan's existence. If you explain this, I can concede."

Refer to CR post. Though, I'll elaborate a little more on it. Given the anime elaboration of this is rather lacking, we can try using the manga to potentially give us some more details on this whole idea of time-traveling that Toriyama has going on. In it, it's explained that going to an arbitrary point into the past creates an alternate world, this being not of the actual, 'past or future' of the Timeline they currently reside it, that does not affect the actual, 'past, present, and future' of the timeline itself. Whis has an ability for that whenever he's rewinding time, and no Time rings comes from that. Hints, why Bulma refers to this as an Alternate world for Future trunk's timeline, and not, "the future", or in vice-versa, where the main timeline is not the actual past of Trunk's timeline, but an alternate world that moves congruently when time passes.

Whis applies this same thing for future trunks timeline, going into an arbitrary point into the future that happens before their fight with Zamasu to sell him away. This directly causes a new time ring to come about, and why Beerus refers to it as, "You're going to create another parallel world!"

This same thing happens in the anime, where Beerus is complaining about making a new time-ring from Whis doing this (Causing a new parallel world to come about that's talking about before Trunk's own world events came about.), and Whis rebukes him about how Beerus also made a new time ring.

Simply put, if this was just Whis reversing the events of Trunk's already existing timeline- No new time ring would appear, but this is not the case confirmed by Beerus and Whis interaction in the anime (and supported by the manga), so therefore, Whis created a new parallel world that's not the same as Future trunk's timeline. Hints, why they're 6 time rings after the fact.

"What thread, exactly? The one I linked, you mean?"

This one: Dragon Ball Super Cosmology Discussion | Page 2 | VS Battles Wiki Forum

As for the whole other thing that you're talking about, well... I'll need a few to think about it.

 

[CR_Catinho]

@Ultima_Reality "I still have some gripes with saying he went to a random timeline that just happened to look like Trunks', given that scan's existence. If you explain this, I can concede."

Refer to CR post. Though, I'll elaborate a little more on it. Given the anime elaboration of this is rather lacking, we can try using the manga to potentially give us some more details on this whole idea of time-traveling that Toriyama has going on. In it, it's explained that going to an arbitrary point into the past creates an alternate world, this being not of the actual, 'past or future' of the Timeline they currently reside it, that does not affect the actual, 'past, present, and future' of the timeline itself. Whis has an ability for that whenever he's rewinding time, and no Time rings comes from that. Hints, why Bulma refers to this as an Alternate world for Future trunk's timeline, and not, "the future", or in vice-versa, where the main timeline is not the actual past of Trunk's timeline, but an alternate world that moves congruently when time passes.

Whis applies this same thing for future trunks timeline, going into an arbitrary point into the future that happens before their fight with Zamasu to sell him away. This directly causes a new time ring to come about, and why Beerus refers to it as, "You're going to create another parallel world!"

This same thing happens in the anime, where Beerus is complaining about making a new time-ring from Whis doing this (Causing a new parallel world to come about that's talking about before Trunk's own world events came about.), and Whis rebukes him about how Beerus also made a new time ring.

Simply put, if this was just Whis reversing the events of Trunk's already existing timeline- No new time ring would appear, but this is not the case confirmed by Beerus and Whis interaction in the anime (and supported by the manga), so therefore, Whis created a new parallel world that's not the same as Future trunk's timeline. Hints, why they're 6 time rings after the fact.

"What thread, exactly? The one I linked, you mean?"

This one: Dragon Ball Super Cosmology Discussion | Page 2 | VS Battles Wiki Forum

As for the whole other thing that you're talking about, well... I'll need a few to think about it.

Wow this man explained my point even better than i did lol

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The default assumption is Low 2-C until something contradicts that, and I would say that the 12 Universes having alternate counterparts in other timelines counts as one under the current standards, at least, since proposing something that essentially equals a higher temporal dimension is a pretty huge claim that will naturally be placed under much stricter scrutiny befitting of a higher tier. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and blah blah blah.

The wiki treats U7 as low 2-C so they don’t consider overarching timelines as a contradiction. I’m just pointing out a double standard dude. As for the low 1-C stuff? I mainly want clarification. All this does is prove that the timelines are at least low multiversal.

That doesn't answer any of my doubts. You're basically saying that Whis' statement was wrong because the timeline was destroyed, even though my argument is that this statement means that the timeline was not destroyed to begin with. Whis also proceeded to restore Trunks' world just as he said he would, so him being wrong based on the fact he mentioned it as a possibility would go against what the work itself presents.

No you’re the one that’s implying that a statement takes precedence over an onscreen feat. Whis saying “possible” obviously shows he’s not sure. He didn’t even witness the destruction of the timeline. You have to show proof that Whis’s statement >>> what we see.

 

[Giygas3]

A small note to make for someone to answer, because I'm exhausted and can barely think right now: With this argument in mind, that the time-ring was destroyed in the anime, and the two extra time rings that makes 6 that we see is just the Zamasu scenario from Beerus, and the other one is from Whis creating the new timeline.

A potential problem. When Gowasu was putting them up and we then see the 6 time rings, wasn't this before Whis made the new alternate world? I recall the Gowasu scene being right before Whis and Trunks/Mai making their journey.

So with this in mind (And it's just not me being too tired at the moment to think...), wouldn't this mean the time-ring from Trunk's timeline is still there?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

A small note to make for someone to answer, because I'm exhausted and can barely think right now: With this argument in mind, that the time-ring was destroyed in the anime, and the two extra time rings that makes 6 that we see is just the Zamasu scenario from Beerus, and the other one is from Whis creating the new timeline.

A potential problem. When Gowasu was putting them up and we then see the 6 time rings, wasn't this before Whis made the new alternate world? I recall the Gowasu scene being right before Whis and Trunks/Mai making their journey.

So with this in mind (And it's just not me being too tired at the moment to think...), wouldn't this mean the time-ring from Trunk's timeline is still there?

The Gowasu scene was shown right after Beerus and Whis left and then it cut to Trunks and Mai leaving. An unquantifiable amount of time passes between each scene.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

We already treat U1 to U12 as separate space-times.....and the macroverse that contains it is considered a "timeline"...
This along with the fact that we classify space between space-times as 4D space.....and coupled with this higher temporal dimension....
Would make each "timeline" as the series refers to as 5D timeline....
And I think we even have proof of 2B lvls of "timelines" existing in DBS.....

So essentially DBS cosmology as a whole should be 2B multiverse of 5D timelines...

And then Xenoverse and DBH build off of this to even crazier degree...with 2A stuff...

So yeah I agree with Low1C for DB accross the board.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

As far as each of these "timelines" having thier own histories....
Well if I remember corrrectly.... there were supposed to be 18 space-times in the macroverse or "timeline" in the past....untill Zeno erased 6 of them so only 12 remain in the present...
So that clearly shows that each macroverse has past , present and obviously a future....

Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not care about the outcome of this thread; but this is about Dragon Ball Heroes and not Dragon Ball Super, so that's a bit derailment there.

But actually, It does mentioned that Zamasu was transcending time and space and "Becoming one with the Universe". It means one of two things, he either merged with the entirety of Trunks' timeline; thus all 12 universes in the process, or Universe 7 itself is a timeline. But given the former conflicts that fact that casual Jiren was still above Zamasu but questioning whether he's above Beerus. And Beerus being unafraid of Zamasu but very afraid of Goku and Jiren. So it seems we only have proof that he merged with Universe 7, but we do have proof he's merging with parts of other timelines at least. But anyway, Universe 6 is farther away from Universe 7 then the RoSaT which is very much outside the time and space of U7. Also, Whis went to a timeless void, it's not proof that the past still exists; Zeno clearly erased the entire timeline. Also, Whis has shown the ability to transfer people to other timelines; that's where he took Trunks and Mai when he mentioned a timeline where their families are safe.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Nope,I disaggre

 

[Hasty12345]

So I've been thinking about this, correct me if I'm wrong.

You're saying that the (I'm just gonna call it a "hyper-timeline") as it contains uncountably infinite snapshots of 12 4D universes - I think this is what you're arguing, again correct me if I'm wrong.

However, that's not the case. the hyper-timeline is composed of 12 4D objects (1 4D object for each universe), I don't think there are uncountably infinite snapshots of 4D objects, just 12 lots of uncountably infinite 3D objects. So I think you'd need uncountably infinite timelines within the hyper-timeline to reach low 1-C.

I could be wrong, I'm no expert, but I will say if you want low 1-C DBH you could try arguing there's uncountably infinite timelines via MWI and infinite possibilities ( at least that's what I'd do).

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

You're saying that the (I'm just gonna call it a "hyper-timeline") as it contains uncountably infinite snapshots of 12 4D universes - I think this is what you're arguing, again correct me if I'm wrong.

That is not how he meant it.....remember each space-time has its own past, present and future...
These collective of all space-times and their snapshots contribute to the past, present and future of the hypertimeline.

And this basically....

As far as each of these "timelines" or call it hypertimeline as popular term has been coined , have thier own histories....
Well if I remember corrrectly.... there were supposed to be 18 space-times in the macroverse or "timeline" or hypertimeline in the past....untill Zeno erased 6 of them so only 12 remain in the present...
So that clearly shows that each macroverse(hypertimeline) has past , present and obviously a future....hence would end up with uncountable snapshots from start to end on higher lvl....where each 4D construct will be treated as an "3D object" in the hypertimeline.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

12 times countable infinity would still just be countable infinity, so an infinite number of 2-C sized multiverses could very well just be 2-A still.

 

[Hasty12345]

space-time has its own past, present and future...

that's what makes the 3-A structure a low 2-C structure

hese collective of all space-times and their snapshots contribute to the past, present and future of the hypertimeline.

which there are 12 of, therefore, 12 x low 2-C = 2-C structure