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I completely agree with a regulation on this, there's multiple threads regarding the same topic all open at once currently including this one and its starting to grow very repitive to deal with.
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DBH and DBX speed
- Thread starter Zenkaibattery1
- Start date
- Status
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Shouldn't we wait for SSJRyu to catch wind of this?
Anyway:
"Do not attempt to upgrade the speed of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable, as this has been discussed several times before, and has been deemed a misinterpretation of the actual events."
Anyway:
"Do not attempt to upgrade the speed of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable, as this has been discussed several times before, and has been deemed a misinterpretation of the actual events."
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Yeah, I think we should wait for him. He is a nice guy, and deserves a chance to respond to Matt or everyone else's arguments.
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"Do not attempt to upgrade the speed of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable, as this has been discussed several times before, and has been deemed a misinterpretation of the actual events. The characters have been clearly affected by the flow of time before, and most feats suggesting such a speed are vague and can be interpreted as simple time travel."
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah, I agree.
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This suggestion is very good, I like it.
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Ummm, Flash "immesurable by runnig through time" Frisk "immesurable due to fighting after a timeline was erased" Flowey "immesurable for switching and altering timelines in battle". Consistently people get immesurable for traveling through time via speed and existing and interacting in places devoid of time, and Demigra lived in there for 75 million years without time, so it is his natural habitat consistently, and he can interact with the outside world to from within the crack of time to btw.
Also claiming since they have seemingly been effected by time before from the viewers perspective somehow nulifies their showings and stated stats happens with virutally every immesurable speed character. 99% of showings from guys like for example shin megami tensei characters, or digimon characters who have immesurable speed seem to take place within the confines of linear time. It is just a couple feats, or a couple statements that make them immesurable. Fact is if you can move around in places devoid of time, and even live there, and travel through time freely by flight and not hax, well that logically is immesurable speed, and they can use these skills in actual timelines and from places outside of time to which can effect the normal timelines, so saying they are not usable in normal timelines is false.
Also claiming since they have seemingly been effected by time before from the viewers perspective somehow nulifies their showings and stated stats happens with virutally every immesurable speed character. 99% of showings from guys like for example shin megami tensei characters, or digimon characters who have immesurable speed seem to take place within the confines of linear time. It is just a couple feats, or a couple statements that make them immesurable. Fact is if you can move around in places devoid of time, and even live there, and travel through time freely by flight and not hax, well that logically is immesurable speed, and they can use these skills in actual timelines and from places outside of time to which can effect the normal timelines, so saying they are not usable in normal timelines is false.
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If Demigra lived in a void without time for 75,000,000 years, it does seem like he'd have immeasurable speed, but i'll wait for the input of the others.
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I was saying the same exact thing as Ryu ovo
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How can he be in a vid without time for a period of time. OVO
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"99% of showings from guys like for example shin megami tensei characters, or digimon characters who have immesurable speed seem to take place within the confines of linear time. "
This is blatantly false. Please, don't try to use False Analogies with series that simply have better feats than Dragon Ball.
This is blatantly false. Please, don't try to use False Analogies with series that simply have better feats than Dragon Ball.
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That is a little too harsh, he is always nice when replying to us and never insults anyone.
I'm overall neutral on this, though.
I'm overall neutral on this, though.
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@Matt The crack in time is a place without time outside the multiverse, although it is connected to all timelines and points in time via the time shards that can view them, and can view them simoltainiously. Demigra can also still interact with diffrent points in time and diffrent timelines in non linear fashion as he does through out the game despite being sealed, sometimes simoultainiously. Basically the place is not bound by time or part of the flow of time so traditional time is meaningless, but from kai of times perspective it was 75 million years, and since demigra can see all these timelines progress as well and is noted to have been there building power for 75 million years, he would have some sense of it I would think personally.
Umm, how is it false? Are you telling me most showings in SMT and Digimon would result individualy in immesurable speed feats? If I picked a random feat in digimon or smt with an immesurable character cahnces are the feat would in and of itself appear to be bound by linear time. I am pretty sure that most feats of those series individualy are not portrayed as immesurable, just a few that give that rating. So saying that becouse some feats don't appear to be immesurable makes a character's immesurable feats/statements moot is double standards and silly at best in that sense.
Umm, how is it false? Are you telling me most showings in SMT and Digimon would result individualy in immesurable speed feats? If I picked a random feat in digimon or smt with an immesurable character cahnces are the feat would in and of itself appear to be bound by linear time. I am pretty sure that most feats of those series individualy are not portrayed as immesurable, just a few that give that rating. So saying that becouse some feats don't appear to be immesurable makes a character's immesurable feats/statements moot is double standards and silly at best in that sense.
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The thing is: Being outside the fabric of time, past, present and future is the de-facto modus operandi of most SMT demons and gods. Demons being outside of time in the sense that they are acausal entities who are simultaneously created by human thought and existing in the past where their myths are literally true.
DBX has nothing on that level.
DBX has nothing on that level.
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@Matt
Which means nothing, as that is not the point of Ryu. Ryu is saying that just because we, the audience, see them fighting normally, does not mean that, from the characters perspective, they aren't fighting at infinite speeds or whatever. To support this, he brought verse where a simple statement (like you just did with SMT) made them infinite or whatever, and by the same coin, that should make DBX infinite or whatever, since Demigra has one of those statements. The "level" of things compared to others are completely irrelevant.
Which means nothing, as that is not the point of Ryu. Ryu is saying that just because we, the audience, see them fighting normally, does not mean that, from the characters perspective, they aren't fighting at infinite speeds or whatever. To support this, he brought verse where a simple statement (like you just did with SMT) made them infinite or whatever, and by the same coin, that should make DBX infinite or whatever, since Demigra has one of those statements. The "level" of things compared to others are completely irrelevant.
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There are no actual statements that make the characters Immeasurable, read above what I, Cal, Azathoth and others have said. This idea is brought by misinterpretations of statements, either innocent or intentional.
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I care very little if there is or not, actually. Just clarifying what Ryu is saying, since you seemed to have misinterpreted.
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Pretty much what was said above. I am not claiming they are equal to smt characters, but that you can't dismiss feats or statements that would make somebody infinite or immeasurable based on the viewers perspective of them fighting at finite speeds, which is what was being done as reasoning for ignoring there feats/statements. smt and digimon were just examples of verses that usually are shown in what we would see as the viewer in finite speed in combat, but in reality there few statements and feats dictate they are not actually bound by linear time.
As for Demigra being infinite/immeasurable, he literally lives in the crack of time for 75 million years in relation to the kai of time's perspective, a place devoid of time and outside the flow of time and even multiverse, and can not only effect things and move around in there, but also even effect things from within such a place that are in the multiverse and in the flow of time to. So naturally existing and living in, and manipulating a place outside of time would be either infinite or immeasurable speed, especially when you can effect beyond it into the timelines to from that place.
Also the masters are shown to be able to fly through time and even across timelines to in order to reach you at times when your in danger, and split as well to go back to the time nest if beaten up, so travel through time by flight and not hax both forward, backward and across separate time spaces even would be immeasurable speed to.
And then you get to the transcending time statements, which by themselves could be interpreted as an exaggeration or literal, but since they can literally live in places devoid of time and travel across time in any direction with regular flight, the quotes become substantiation for the feats, as opposed to just unsubstantiated quotes.
Anyhow, that is how I and many others see it and the reasoning behind it. You may or may not agree but everybody is entitled to their point of view.
As for Demigra being infinite/immeasurable, he literally lives in the crack of time for 75 million years in relation to the kai of time's perspective, a place devoid of time and outside the flow of time and even multiverse, and can not only effect things and move around in there, but also even effect things from within such a place that are in the multiverse and in the flow of time to. So naturally existing and living in, and manipulating a place outside of time would be either infinite or immeasurable speed, especially when you can effect beyond it into the timelines to from that place.
Also the masters are shown to be able to fly through time and even across timelines to in order to reach you at times when your in danger, and split as well to go back to the time nest if beaten up, so travel through time by flight and not hax both forward, backward and across separate time spaces even would be immeasurable speed to.
And then you get to the transcending time statements, which by themselves could be interpreted as an exaggeration or literal, but since they can literally live in places devoid of time and travel across time in any direction with regular flight, the quotes become substantiation for the feats, as opposed to just unsubstantiated quotes.
Anyhow, that is how I and many others see it and the reasoning behind it. You may or may not agree but everybody is entitled to their point of view.
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I understand Ant, no pressure. But it does mean quite a bit though that you agree it makes sense, since that means it isn't just an illogical argument, at the very least it is a logical possible conclusion if we both can see the train of thought.
Anyhow I am going to sleep, but just food for thought on the topic. I'll watch the thread and see what happens, it would be nice if it could be added from this, but perhaps in the future I will make a new thread if it is needed with more in depth scans, analysis, feats etc. since this was just a few basic key points I wanted to bring up on the topic.
Anyhow I am going to sleep, but just food for thought on the topic. I'll watch the thread and see what happens, it would be nice if it could be added from this, but perhaps in the future I will make a new thread if it is needed with more in depth scans, analysis, feats etc. since this was just a few basic key points I wanted to bring up on the topic.
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I agree with Ryu.
The premise of them being at finite speed was the fact that the audience is seeing them at finite speed. And like I was saying before "naturally existing and living in, and manipulating a place outside of time would be either infinite or immeasurable speed" even The Everlasting stated above, that you have to exist in a timeless place to be infinite speed. This shows that Demigra being in the CoT would qualify according to The Everlasting.
The premise of them being at finite speed was the fact that the audience is seeing them at finite speed. And like I was saying before "naturally existing and living in, and manipulating a place outside of time would be either infinite or immeasurable speed" even The Everlasting stated above, that you have to exist in a timeless place to be infinite speed. This shows that Demigra being in the CoT would qualify according to The Everlasting.
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I also agree with Ryu. So far, he's brought up the best argument and faced no real debunk tbh.
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Dark also agrees with blue so that's good
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While I am neutral, the argument presented by Blue and Ryu makes a lot of sense, and definitely is substantial. However, I believe more important figured in Vsbattles should be the final judge... As obviously I am not 100% accurate on this topic.
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"Naturally living in" as in "being born in". Being confined in a timeless space isnt anything "natural". Demigra unless was born in the CoT isnt infinite.
@Ryu Dark Area digimon are born from a timeless void. Immesurable digimon trascend completely time in various ways.
@Ryu Dark Area digimon are born from a timeless void. Immesurable digimon trascend completely time in various ways.
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Many people are for immeasurable speed and some are in the middle but think it makes sense, including staff so that's good as well
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This.PaChi2 said:
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living in it for 75 million years is enough evidence for the fact it is consistent that he can act and thrive in there. The feat itself is knwon to be infinite/immessurable even if only done once, the only reason it is sometimes not used here is since it could be considered inconsistent if it only happened for a brief period and never again, but he is in there for 75 million years, and can even effect things in the normal time streams from there all game. So he consistently can thrive in such an enviroment and extend his influence in that state to normal time streams to.
Also, again, the masters can literally travel from toki toki city, by flight to your location in time and space in an alternate timeline to assist you,a dn then leave whent ehy want if they are being beaten, so taht alone is anohter immesurable speed feat.
Then the statements made only further substantiate there status as beyond linear time.
Also, again, the masters can literally travel from toki toki city, by flight to your location in time and space in an alternate timeline to assist you,a dn then leave whent ehy want if they are being beaten, so taht alone is anohter immesurable speed feat.
Then the statements made only further substantiate there status as beyond linear time.
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The feat isn't either infinite nor immeasurable.
And not really, they have means of traversing through time or timelines. Neither which is Immeasurable just special abilities.
The statements are, once again, taken out of context and don't mean what you think they mean.
And not really, they have means of traversing through time or timelines. Neither which is Immeasurable just special abilities.
The statements are, once again, taken out of context and don't mean what you think they mean.
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Honestly, I don't think that simply living in a timeless space should be considered a speed feat at all, even if it was for an extended period of time. A location without time is just a property of the dimension itself. A character shouldn't automatically scale to the properties of an area just because their inside it.
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I'll say a few things for now.
First, being outisde the flow of time in the Multiverse definitely isn't immeasurable. That's basically being out of sync with time and doesn't imply you are beyond ALL of time when simply not in tune with a specific time flow. It's similar to how Alien X was downgraded based on a false conception of the FoC being outside time when it was just out of sync with it. This sounds no different.
Second, regarding the 75 million year stuff, wouldn't living forever outside it afterwards kinda prove immeasurable speed is an outlier? It'd be different if it was the other way around. That if Demigra stil lived in the CoT for every passing moment, and was only bound by linear time when going outside it, living in the void would contradict any small instance of being bound by time since he'd live in a void longer than even going outside it. But this isnt happening here. Even if its 75 million years, its still a limited instance of living there. Demigra no longer lives there right? So its the complete opposite happening. He's living outside the void longer than living inside it, so the instances of him being bound by time are against him not being bound by it. And like Matt and Pachi said, Demigra wasnt naturally born there in the CoT, he only lived, or was "confined" there. That isnt enough to be even granted infinite.
And as for others traveling to other timelines, whats stopping that from easily just being considered a form of time travel?
First, being outisde the flow of time in the Multiverse definitely isn't immeasurable. That's basically being out of sync with time and doesn't imply you are beyond ALL of time when simply not in tune with a specific time flow. It's similar to how Alien X was downgraded based on a false conception of the FoC being outside time when it was just out of sync with it. This sounds no different.
Second, regarding the 75 million year stuff, wouldn't living forever outside it afterwards kinda prove immeasurable speed is an outlier? It'd be different if it was the other way around. That if Demigra stil lived in the CoT for every passing moment, and was only bound by linear time when going outside it, living in the void would contradict any small instance of being bound by time since he'd live in a void longer than even going outside it. But this isnt happening here. Even if its 75 million years, its still a limited instance of living there. Demigra no longer lives there right? So its the complete opposite happening. He's living outside the void longer than living inside it, so the instances of him being bound by time are against him not being bound by it. And like Matt and Pachi said, Demigra wasnt naturally born there in the CoT, he only lived, or was "confined" there. That isnt enough to be even granted infinite.
And as for others traveling to other timelines, whats stopping that from easily just being considered a form of time travel?
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If that is the case, with the CoT weaking his powers to that much of an extent, that's even more of a reason on why he isn't immeasurable or infinite. Or even being naturally born there. You don't get weakened from a place your supposed to naturally be a part of yes?
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I just see a few misconceptions I would like to clear up.
1. The Crack of Time did not weaken Demigra's power but only limited amount of his power that could escape.
2. In DB Heroes, Demigra built a castle in the Crack of time and now lives there as he can freely escape any time he wants. And like I said above, Heroes is a direct continuation of Xenoverse so he does not live outside of the CoT for the rest of his life.
3. He lived in the CoT longer than he lived outside it. (at least afterwards)
4. In DBH, he freely chooses to live in the CoT and is no longer confined there.
5. Existing in a timeless void, according to the speed page, is a speed feat but can be classified as an outlier/inconsistency.
6. People like Beerus are stated to be older than Time (at least in Xenoverse) and Demigra is older than him.
Most people on the issue are neutral towards it (including Azzy) so that leads me to believe the feats aren't as bad as people are making it out to be.
1. The Crack of Time did not weaken Demigra's power but only limited amount of his power that could escape.
2. In DB Heroes, Demigra built a castle in the Crack of time and now lives there as he can freely escape any time he wants. And like I said above, Heroes is a direct continuation of Xenoverse so he does not live outside of the CoT for the rest of his life.
3. He lived in the CoT longer than he lived outside it. (at least afterwards)
4. In DBH, he freely chooses to live in the CoT and is no longer confined there.
5. Existing in a timeless void, according to the speed page, is a speed feat but can be classified as an outlier/inconsistency.
6. People like Beerus are stated to be older than Time (at least in Xenoverse) and Demigra is older than him.
Most people on the issue are neutral towards it (including Azzy) so that leads me to believe the feats aren't as bad as people are making it out to be.
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1. Even so, it still weakened him. Your not supposed to be getting any sudden backlash or negative feedback from a place that should be natural for you to coexist there.
2. Fair enough. But even so, even if he lives there currently, living there alone and naturally being born there and living there are 2 different things.
Point 3 is covered
Same as 4
5. It's not inconsistent or outlier if the character in question was naturally born from said void.
6. Is that true or considered hyperbole?
2. Fair enough. But even so, even if he lives there currently, living there alone and naturally being born there and living there are 2 different things.
Point 3 is covered
Same as 4
5. It's not inconsistent or outlier if the character in question was naturally born from said void.
6. Is that true or considered hyperbole?
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https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/HM1sZtZxWPT
He considers majins who existed since the beginning of time as babies and implies hes been around longer
He considers majins who existed since the beginning of time as babies and implies hes been around longer
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