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I think we should make a Staff Discussion thread and let SSJRyu comment.
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DBH and DBX speed
- Thread starter Zenkaibattery1
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Acting in a void is actuallly not considered a speed feat in 90% of the time. You can't treat exceptions as the norms, and demand special treatement to Dragon Ball.
Feats of having multiple bodies and a shared consciousness is not Immeasurable. Nigh-Omnipresence =/= Immeasurable either.
Feats of having multiple bodies and a shared consciousness is not Immeasurable. Nigh-Omnipresence =/= Immeasurable either.
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I don't see why we need to make another thread if everything has basically been addressed, Azathoth disagrees, and the rule has been ok-ed to be added.
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We only deny void feats if they are PIS. I don't know if this one is, but i'm neutral about this whole thing.
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Demigra still doesn't have either Immeasurable or Infinite speed. He perceives things linearly and everything he does happens in a measurable period of time.
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Well Matt, your welcome to your opinion, but the void feats themself are all considered infinite/immesurable, it is a meatter of consistency. In this case we have multiple feats, characters and 75 million years of consistency. And Azzy is undecided, as in he thinks it may be legit.
Again, thats your opinion. But Omnipressence is considered a form of speed when across space and time, and in his case it is across space adn time. And it makes sense since if you can attack past present and future simoltainiously that will trump any linear forward speed.
Again, thats your opinion. But Omnipressence is considered a form of speed when across space and time, and in his case it is across space adn time. And it makes sense since if you can attack past present and future simoltainiously that will trump any linear forward speed.
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>Literally ignoring opposition as just "yur opinion"
Ryu, please don't be so low.
I am telling you a fact. Void feats aren't all considered infinite / immeasurable. And if the matter is consistency, than no one is becoming immeasurable because they are consistently not immeasurable.
Omnipresence =/= Imeasurable. And evidence that they can attack in past, preset and future?
Ryu, please don't be so low.
I am telling you a fact. Void feats aren't all considered infinite / immeasurable. And if the matter is consistency, than no one is becoming immeasurable because they are consistently not immeasurable.
Omnipresence =/= Imeasurable. And evidence that they can attack in past, preset and future?
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It is your opinion though, it is not fact. Technically all void feats are infinite or immesurable since you move in a place devoid of time. The only reason we don't use them is due to consistency or PIS.
Consistency is not doing the same feat all the time. It is doing it multiple times. And in the case of void feats they definatly fit the bill, immesurable less so but they still have multiple of those since all the masters can do this feat consistently and Demgra's other feats could be scaled since they cna take him out.
Omnipressence can trump immesurable actually in some cases. Technically omnipressence (spatial and temporal) is a form of immesurable since you exist in multiple points of space and time simoltainiously and can move and act in multiple directions in time.
Demigra attacks many points of time and space at once in DBH with his evil energy, effecting all timelines and points in time and space simoltainiously, and even trancending the multiverse to go to the real world, fighting multiple foes at once and controlling others etc at once. So he can act at multiple points in time and space at once simoltainiously.
Consistency is not doing the same feat all the time. It is doing it multiple times. And in the case of void feats they definatly fit the bill, immesurable less so but they still have multiple of those since all the masters can do this feat consistently and Demgra's other feats could be scaled since they cna take him out.
Omnipressence can trump immesurable actually in some cases. Technically omnipressence (spatial and temporal) is a form of immesurable since you exist in multiple points of space and time simoltainiously and can move and act in multiple directions in time.
Demigra attacks many points of time and space at once in DBH with his evil energy, effecting all timelines and points in time and space simoltainiously, and even trancending the multiverse to go to the real world, fighting multiple foes at once and controlling others etc at once. So he can act at multiple points in time and space at once simoltainiously.
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" Technically all void feats are infinite or immesurable since you move in a place devoid of time. The only reason we don't use them is due to consistency or PIS."
Even then being actual speed feats is often debated. And in this context of DBX and DBH they are definitely not speed feats.
"Consistency is not doing the same feat all the time. It is doing it multiple times. And in the case of void feats they definatly fit the bill, immesurable less so but they still have multiple of those since all the masters can do this feat consistently and Demgra's other feats could be scaled since they cna take him out."
They do feats which aren't immeasurable far more time than they do arguably immeasurable feats.
"Omnipressence can trump immesurable actually in some cases. Technically omnipressence (spatial and temporal) is a form of immesurable since you exist in multiple points of space and time simoltainiously and can move and act in multiple directions in time."
IT doesn't scale to other characters specially if he is defeated just by being punched.
I'm not talking about DBH. I'm talking about Xenoverse.
Even then being actual speed feats is often debated. And in this context of DBX and DBH they are definitely not speed feats.
"Consistency is not doing the same feat all the time. It is doing it multiple times. And in the case of void feats they definatly fit the bill, immesurable less so but they still have multiple of those since all the masters can do this feat consistently and Demgra's other feats could be scaled since they cna take him out."
They do feats which aren't immeasurable far more time than they do arguably immeasurable feats.
"Omnipressence can trump immesurable actually in some cases. Technically omnipressence (spatial and temporal) is a form of immesurable since you exist in multiple points of space and time simoltainiously and can move and act in multiple directions in time."
IT doesn't scale to other characters specially if he is defeated just by being punched.
I'm not talking about DBH. I'm talking about Xenoverse.
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I'm not trying to be rude, but Matt, friend, you're just saying not a speed feat without saying why and kind of strawmanning
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Can you explain why they are not Speed feats? I am genuinely confused about that.
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Literally explained multiple times in this thread and previous, but this thread is 333 posts long and people are arguing to insistance to the point where they forget responses.
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The issue is you say they are not speed feats, but there is no reasonable reason to assume this that i see. Just becouse we can see them fight in what looks linear time frame? This is wrong since most feats of infinite/immesurabel characters look linear to the viewer adn it does not remove their other better speed feats. Also they still have consistent repeated void feats so inconsistent argument cant be used either.
This is the case with 99% of characters with such ratings. How often do we see Digimon do immesurable speed feats, a lot less than seemingly linear time ones. If they have multiple feats for it that is normally enough. I mean even you yourself are saying they could be argued to be immesurable at this point for some feats.
It would if he was completly attacked and wiped across time and space, as he was here, they also trancend the multiverse. Or they had similar powers which multiple demon gods do (see towa use same energy, see black smoke shenron use similar energy).
This topic was including both heroes and Xenvoerse.
This is the case with 99% of characters with such ratings. How often do we see Digimon do immesurable speed feats, a lot less than seemingly linear time ones. If they have multiple feats for it that is normally enough. I mean even you yourself are saying they could be argued to be immesurable at this point for some feats.
It would if he was completly attacked and wiped across time and space, as he was here, they also trancend the multiverse. Or they had similar powers which multiple demon gods do (see towa use same energy, see black smoke shenron use similar energy).
This topic was including both heroes and Xenvoerse.
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"Just becouse we can see them fight in what looks linear time frame"
They do fight in a linear, quantifiable time frame. Everything they do has a time frame.
"is is wrong since most feats of infinite/immesurabel characters look linear to the viewer adn it does not remove their other better speed feats."
At least they have much more elaborate, explicit, undeniable proof than just statements which refer to time travel, and time-manipulation abilities. With DBX you are just stretching any time feat to mean Immeasurable speed.
Bringing up Digimon is irrelevant to the discussion.
They do fight in a linear, quantifiable time frame. Everything they do has a time frame.
"is is wrong since most feats of infinite/immesurabel characters look linear to the viewer adn it does not remove their other better speed feats."
At least they have much more elaborate, explicit, undeniable proof than just statements which refer to time travel, and time-manipulation abilities. With DBX you are just stretching any time feat to mean Immeasurable speed.
Bringing up Digimon is irrelevant to the discussion.
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The big issue here seems to be whether or not void feats are considered immeasurable speed feats, and not specifically the dragonball statements. There needs to be more clarification on why moving in a void is considered a speed feat in the first place and not just use red herrings by comparing void feats from other verses to justify it.
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No it isn't mat. If the feats are literally the same or at least similar it makes sense. Ryu is explaining things again so you should as well tbh.
How do the feats refer to time travel? Every single time they time travel chronoa says something along the lines of "they are going throughout different points in history" even with Demigra sending the time warrior throughout time. The statements of them existing beyond time and transcending time are far different. Before you say "no it isn't" how? An explanation needs to be given.
How do the feats refer to time travel? Every single time they time travel chronoa says something along the lines of "they are going throughout different points in history" even with Demigra sending the time warrior throughout time. The statements of them existing beyond time and transcending time are far different. Before you say "no it isn't" how? An explanation needs to be given.
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The statements have actually been agreed to not be about speed, but time travel abilities. The only thing that is debatable is moving in voids.
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Read through the thread but I can't seem to find the explanation as to why the void feats are not Speed feats. I might be missing something.
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Again, them doing things in a linear time frame at times does not remove the multiple points they do not do this, like all the void feats, or travelling through time and space via flight freely. And we can't assume that they are always doing this linear timeframe either, like in the crack of time it looks like taht to teh viewer, but there is in actuality no time.
No, thats not true. They legit have many characters in a void doing there regular actions in physical combat many times, and Demigra living there even, and directly effecting the timelines from within it to. Also masters flying through time and space freely with travel speed is not hax unless you have explicit proof they were using some sort of hax to do this. A few can manipulate time, but most have no such ability and are shown acting on their speed to achieve this. Similar to the flash getting immesurable due to travel.
Digimon is relevant to teh topic since it is an example of characters that are often shown doing linear time feats but can move at immesurable speed, proving teh point that just becouse you have linear speed feats it does not disqualify you from having infinite or immesurable speed.
No, thats not true. They legit have many characters in a void doing there regular actions in physical combat many times, and Demigra living there even, and directly effecting the timelines from within it to. Also masters flying through time and space freely with travel speed is not hax unless you have explicit proof they were using some sort of hax to do this. A few can manipulate time, but most have no such ability and are shown acting on their speed to achieve this. Similar to the flash getting immesurable due to travel.
Digimon is relevant to teh topic since it is an example of characters that are often shown doing linear time feats but can move at immesurable speed, proving teh point that just becouse you have linear speed feats it does not disqualify you from having infinite or immesurable speed.
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This is getting ridiculously long now.
This needs to be ramade as a staff-only discussion at this point.
This needs to be ramade as a staff-only discussion at this point.
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strawmanning at its finest. Why are they just time travelling. I am seriously not trying to be rude here, it that is what you are doing. Like I said, all the times they were travelling through time it was explicitly said they were. Them ezisign beyond time etc is a different statement entirelyMatthew Schroeder said:
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@Arid It's only a red herring when it is completely unrelated. The void feats that were brought up were similar in circumstances to each other.
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Zenkaibattery1 and SSJRyu1 would be allowed to comment on that scenario.
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This. It is basically one side saying it's apple and the other side saying it's oranges, rinse and repeat.DodoNova2 said:
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Even then, so be it.
This thread is over 300+ comments long with undecided stuff, argument after argument, its completely unmanageable at this point.
If you think they should comment, that is fine. But otherwise a staff only thread must be done now.
This thread is over 300+ comments long with undecided stuff, argument after argument, its completely unmanageable at this point.
If you think they should comment, that is fine. But otherwise a staff only thread must be done now.
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Lock this thread.
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Staff page needed plzz, but please allow people like SsjRyu1 and Blue cuz they are the ones that have the arguments. i would say something but Ryu and Matt basically said what i think and ten times more
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Mat, refer to my comment please. I would appreciate a response that isn't filled with strawmanning
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How about we do this.
1) When I get to a desktop, I will make a new thread.
2) You have trouble knowing the difference between this and SMT or Digimon or any other verse with Immeasurable or Infinite Speeds, ask those knowledgeable, look up blogs and RT's.
And I will just ask, name how many times we have seen an infinite or immeasurable speed character move that speed constantly. There is a reason why statements are important for that rating.
1) When I get to a desktop, I will make a new thread.
2) You have trouble knowing the difference between this and SMT or Digimon or any other verse with Immeasurable or Infinite Speeds, ask those knowledgeable, look up blogs and RT's.
And I will just ask, name how many times we have seen an infinite or immeasurable speed character move that speed constantly. There is a reason why statements are important for that rating.
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Statements are literally on the original post.. shown time again, nd stuff ryu brought up
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@Dagon I know how smt and digimon work in general for speed. I just used them as examples to show you can have linear finite speed feats shown, but it does not disqualify you from having immesurable or infinte speed due to other feats.
I will relist the feats for inifnte/immesurable and omnipresent speed again here that I recall, but after I have to go for a while.
1. Demigra lives and functions in a timeless void (crack of time) for 75 million years and can even influence the main timelines from there consistently through the entire game.
2. Demigra and FW have there final battle in this place, along with Goku.
3. Towa and Mira have always existed outside the flow of time.
4. Mira and Bardock battle outside time and space in the crack of time destroying part of history.
5. In DBH Demigra was warping and distorting space and time on a multiversal scale, and trancends it to the real world to, and was about to destroy the entire multiverse and real world and act in the reesulting void, freely creating his own new world from nothing.
6. Demigra in DBH created his own castle in the crack of time on purpose (timeless void) and can freely function in it and go in and out of it (as can all his minions and the pattrolers). Even stated to be "like it doesn't exist."
7. All the masters can physically fly through time, across timelines and reach you of their own accord from conton city where they normally are, and are shown flying into the field, and flying out if beaten on their own speed. None of which are pattrolers, most of which do not have teleportation or any of said hax, and many of which are even villains and completly opposition to the time pattrol sans you.
8. There are many statements of trancending time etc. You can say exageration or interprit them diffrently but if you take them literally they support these points, which is more valid given these feats tahn assuming they are exagerations.
*additional points*
9. Demigra can act in multiple timelines and multiple points of time and space simoltainiously with many clones that share a collective conciousness in DBH and can freely be moved or created wherever and whenever. They can do what he does and continue to act as an extension of his will even if his body is gone. I would see this as a form of immesurable speed if one conciousness can act in past present and future simoltainiously.
10. Demigra's dark energy permiates all the multiverse and trancends it to go beyond to the real world. It is controlled by Demigra completly, and continuously passively gives him kiri, supresses or nulifies foes power and abilities etc. Can create clones, wormholes that can transport things and shoot energy blasts anywhere and when, mind control and posses people, ressurect the dead etc. Also it can act on it's own even taccording to his will when he's not around showing it's collective conciousness further. This would likely be a form of omnipressence or nigh-omnipressence.
I will relist the feats for inifnte/immesurable and omnipresent speed again here that I recall, but after I have to go for a while.
1. Demigra lives and functions in a timeless void (crack of time) for 75 million years and can even influence the main timelines from there consistently through the entire game.
2. Demigra and FW have there final battle in this place, along with Goku.
3. Towa and Mira have always existed outside the flow of time.
4. Mira and Bardock battle outside time and space in the crack of time destroying part of history.
5. In DBH Demigra was warping and distorting space and time on a multiversal scale, and trancends it to the real world to, and was about to destroy the entire multiverse and real world and act in the reesulting void, freely creating his own new world from nothing.
6. Demigra in DBH created his own castle in the crack of time on purpose (timeless void) and can freely function in it and go in and out of it (as can all his minions and the pattrolers). Even stated to be "like it doesn't exist."
7. All the masters can physically fly through time, across timelines and reach you of their own accord from conton city where they normally are, and are shown flying into the field, and flying out if beaten on their own speed. None of which are pattrolers, most of which do not have teleportation or any of said hax, and many of which are even villains and completly opposition to the time pattrol sans you.
8. There are many statements of trancending time etc. You can say exageration or interprit them diffrently but if you take them literally they support these points, which is more valid given these feats tahn assuming they are exagerations.
*additional points*
9. Demigra can act in multiple timelines and multiple points of time and space simoltainiously with many clones that share a collective conciousness in DBH and can freely be moved or created wherever and whenever. They can do what he does and continue to act as an extension of his will even if his body is gone. I would see this as a form of immesurable speed if one conciousness can act in past present and future simoltainiously.
10. Demigra's dark energy permiates all the multiverse and trancends it to go beyond to the real world. It is controlled by Demigra completly, and continuously passively gives him kiri, supresses or nulifies foes power and abilities etc. Can create clones, wormholes that can transport things and shoot energy blasts anywhere and when, mind control and posses people, ressurect the dead etc. Also it can act on it's own even taccording to his will when he's not around showing it's collective conciousness further. This would likely be a form of omnipressence or nigh-omnipressence.
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Something that i would like to add is that The CoT should be nonexistent, but it is and thanks to the fact that its a lifeless void separated from time and the multiverse, any changes to history and even history's destruction will not affect you if you are there.
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