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DBH and DBX speed

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Ok let's get back on topic about infinite speed instead of discussing canonocity.

Your debunks were:

It messes up the Super speeds

Void feats don't mean infinite speed

"Beyond time statement" is out of context

My responses were:

Everything in Xenoverse messes up Super scaling. Everything in Super and onwards is basically messed up. Most of the 3-A's are now 2-C. I don't have a problem with infinite speed if things like this are the case.

That might be true however in all of the void feats it is emphasized that they are outside of Time. There is also the fact that Demigra was in the CoT for 75 million years. Just because he could not escaped =\= it is any less of a feat. Demigra in DBH is a being that destroys timelines and such so I see no reason why he would not have infinite speed if that is the reasoning for Time Eater and Solaris.

Fair enough.
 
@Ever that line about TP Trunks not knowing Demigra is ONLY canon to the manga and never occurred in the games. They have completely separate continuities. On this wiki, we use the games so please stop using that as an argument as if we used both, Demigra is still alive in the manga and not the games.
 
Scaling DBH to DBX was completely destroyed above.

"Everything in Xenoverse messes up Super scaling. Everything in Super and onwards is basically messed up. Most of the 3-A's are now 2-C. I don't have a problem with infinite speed if things like this are the case."

False equivalency. The Super events to a point all happen in Xenoverse 2. It's just the added feats which increase the power level.

"That might be true however in all of the void feats it is emphasized that they are outside of Time."

Which does not scale to speed. Also Mira and Towa and Demigra being outside of time = Can time travel. That's it.

"There is also the fact that Demigra was in the CoT for 75 million years. Just because he could not escaped =\= it is any less of a feat."

That's not a speed feat.

"Demigra in DBH is a being that destroys timelines and such so I see no reason why he would not have infinite speed if that is the reasoning for Time Eater and Solaris."

That's not the reason for them. And if they trouble you so much, I'm fine with downgrading their speed.
 
Bluetrekking said:
@Ever that line about TP Trunks not knowing Demigra is ONLY canon to the manga and never occurred in the games. They have completely separate continuities. On this wiki, we use the games so please stop using that as an argument as if we used both, Demigra is still alive in the manga and not the games.
Click to expand...
This

Being in a space that lacks time for 75 million years seems like a speed feat to me.

According to the speed page "Characters who showcase the ability to move freely and naturally in a timeless void may qualify for an infinite speed rating so long as it is not a huge Outlier or Plot-Induced Stupidity or Inconsistency. Such feats will have to be very carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis."

So according to this, a void feat can be a speed feat. Is it an outlier? I do not believe so since characters have performed such feats numerous times. Is it an inconsistency? No, given that yet again feats were performed multiple times.

If enough people agree that infinite speed for Sonic is not legit, sure. But currently the majority agree with it.

Anyways I am finished debating as it will just become a never-ending back and forth. It is wise if we wait for Azzy's judgment.
 
"Being in a space that lacks time for 75 million years seems like a speed feat to me."

It isn't.

"So according to this, a void feat can be a speed feat. Is it an outlier? I do not believe so since characters have performed such feats numerous times".

It is an outlier since everything else suggests that they have limited speeds and require time to perform actions.

"Is it an inconsistency? No, given that yet again feats were performed multiple times."

That actually suggests the opposite, that moving in a void isn't considered a speed feat in Dragon Ball.
 
"It is an outlier since everything else suggests that they have limited speeds and require time to perform actions."

A specific instance where this is shown in Xenoverse?

"That actually suggests the opposite, that moving in a void isn't considered a speed feat in Dragon Ball."

How? Everytime a void feat happens, the characters hype it up as some grandiose feat. Like how Towa was hyping up sending the Future Warrior outside Space-Time.
 
"A specific instance where this is shown in Xenoverse?"

Every single speed feat in both the manga / anime canon to Xenoverse, and Xenoverse itself.

"Everytime a void feat happens, the characters hype it up as some grandiose feat. Like how Towa was hyping up sending the Future Warrior outside Space-Time."

That's BFR. Not speed.
 
But the fact still stands that they hype up void feats. As for the outlier, again, feats differ. Why don't we assume Goku defeating Demigra an outlier? Why don't we assume Goku defeating Final Form Mira an outlier? Every single AP feat in both the manga/anime canon to Xenoverse suggests otherwise.
 
How about actually giving them feats instead of just saying "Oh every single one". You're arguing poorly here.
 
Do you want me to post every feat in the Dragon Ball Manga and in Super which shows that they don't have infinite speed?

You people are arguing in bad faith, just simply ignoring blatant truths.
 
"But the fact still stands that they hype up void feats."

Hyping void feats don't necessary mean speed. Context is key.

"As for the outlier, again, feats differ. Why don't we assume Goku defeating Demigra an outlier? Why don't we assume Goku defeating Final Form Mira an outlier? Every single AP feat in both the manga/anime canon to Xenoverse suggests otherwise."

Blatant false equivalency. Goku gets stronger as time goes on, but even after he supposedly shows infinite speed, he continuously shows that he doesn't have.
 
The Goku that defeats Demigra is the same Goku in the BoG arc. So the argument of "Goku gets stronger with time" is true but not in this context. And, I still so no feat of Goku portrayed as finite speed in Xenoverse. As for the "false equivalency", it is clearly the same case. You are stating that Goku is finite speed because of DBS and I am showing you the same argument could be made for his AP.
 
Probably already been mentioned, but I'll just point out now that almost every mention of transcending time in DBH and DBX refers to a character's ability to move outside the normal flow of time and reach other universes/timelines. Said characters still have "normal" speeds when moving inside of said timelines. Towa and Mira would be prime examples.
 
I think Blues suggestion, which UMR backs up, and which dark agrees wjth, and cal things isn't that bad; of infinite speed should be accepted. They have brought up good arguments and there isn't really been a solid debunk on them. The feats are often show again and stated time and time again.

And I don't fully understand what you mean by your first response in this thread? Are you suggesting they have normal speeds inside the flow of time but can still fight beyond it?
 
You misunderstand, the statements of transcending Time have nothing to do with speed, including the ones in these thread. There is no Infinite speed, even selective.
 
Well, clearly there are infinite speed statements if you select and reinterpret the statements the way you want, or else this thread wouldn't exist OvO.

Just kidding.

Anyway, I agree with Matt here.
 
I also think that Matthew seems to make sense.
 
But it might be best to give Azathoth time to think this over.
 
I agree with them being infinite/immesurable. This is due not just to statements but the fact they legit can live in places devoid of time like the crack of time for 75 million years, move through time freely (your masters can hop timelines and travel through time to reach you when in trouble by flight from conton city, and leave of their own accord if beat down enough to go back via flight), exist outside the flow of time naturaly (everybody admits this is infinite/immesurable on some level, only argument is where can it be applied), trancend time (sure you can call it due to existing outside time but in the end that to can qualify).

So they are not bound by linear time or part of it, as they can travel through it via flight in any direction and even across timelines, and can freely move and naturally live in places devoid of time, and have been stated to trancend time. So I personally consider them to have immesurable speed.

I could put together a more detailed argument on it later with scans etc. but this sums up a few key points why I consider them immesurable.
 
Disagree completely. Time travel and timeleline hopping isn't immeasurable, and the characters aren't inbound by time literally, they simply can do the previously mentioned things, which do not involve speed. They are clearly affected by the flow of time.

And people disagree with being outside of time making them Immeasurable. You need far more proof than just being in a void.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
And people disagree with being outside of time making them Immeasurable. You need far more proof than just being in a void.
Click to expand...
This is true.
 
At this point I don't know what to say here.

Time travel =/= Immesurable speed

Dimensional travel =/= Immesurable speed.

I mean, we have Supernatural angels who can do both things casually and can move in timestop too, and none of them is infinite/Immesurable. This means, context is important to understand a feat.

I don't see a reason to say that XV's feats are related to Immesurable speed as of now.
 
Supernatural Angels actually have more evidence of Immeasurable than DBX / H characters, lol.

Castiel states that he is a "Multidimensional Wave-length of celestial intent", and also that implies that time doesn't apply to him.
 
Okay. Should we close this thread then? Or is it necessary with a regulation as well, in order to save future time and energy for the staff?
 
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